Saga The Origins of Luke's father - Annikin Starkiller, Anakin Skywalker, or Darth Vader?

For Lucas though, Vader's redemption and his fatherhood to Luke were inexorably linked together.

 

Not necessarily because we still don't know when he became the father. Clearly not in the first two drafts and the first draft is the only time there's a Jedi who became a Sith and then became a Jedi again. There was no relationship between them, yet the example of Annikin helped push Valorum. So it's still easy to say that Vader not being related and needing Luke’s help was in place in 76.

 

However, there was the hero's father Kane, who's part cyborg and who sacrifices himself at the end so that the good guys can survive. The elements were already in place. It was only a matter of Lucas combining that character with the Sith Knight character who switches sides at the end. To put it bluntly, I don't think it was such a leap on Lucas' part for him to have grafted those elements onto the newer Darth Vader character who appears in the Third Draft. What's baffling to me would be Lucas coming up with a (future) redemption arc for Vader's but not considering making him the hero's father, and seemingly needing Huyck to suggest that idea to him later on (Let's just say that it would be extremely ironic if it turned out that Huyck suggested the idea back in 1975).

Speaking of which, I find something else wrong with that "Icon's UnEarthed" story: the proposal that it 'solved' a story problem that Lucas was having for the last third of ESB's plot. Looking at the plot mechanics involved, I don't see where this 'rases the stakes' (you already have that with what happens to Han). In terms of convincing Luke to come to the dark side, there were surely other options. Wouldn't it seem more of a convincing tool to convince Luke to come over to his side for none other than the fact that Vader had supposedly killed/murdered Luke's father? Look at it from this side: what advantage does it give Vader over the killing-Luke's-father angle? Sure, the truth could drive a 'wedge' of sorts between Luke and the elder Jedi. But from Vader's point of view, he didn't know about Yoda training Luke, nor did he have reason to believe that Obi-Wan was speaking to him from beyond. No, what seems more probable to me is how Lucas describes it in that video link. When he got down to the second movie, specifically down to the ending fight scene between Luke and Vader, it was sort of 'now or never' to introduce the father revelation into the story so far. It being the original story is why it works, but also because of the way it was set-up in the first film. There's really no compelling reason why Obi-Wan would have needed to tell Luke the whole truth in the first film, and potentially waste any future fulfillment of such a plot point had any sequel films not been forthcoming. Lucas was ultimately right to hedge his bets, so to speak.

 

In the Brackett draft, the idea is that just using his anger to fight offensively was going to do him in.

VADER: "You’re very good, Luke. But I’m twenty years older and stronger than you in the use of the Force. You haven’t a chance with me…any more than your father had."

VADER: "You see, my little Jedi, you’re beaten. You used the dark side of the Force against me, as I knew you would…and powerfully. Very powerfully, Luke. With training, you could be as strong as I. But you’ve had no training in the dark side. You simply felt more power in it, and you used it for revenge, for hate, for the sake of being able to say that you, Luke Skywalker, had destroyed the great Darth Vader."

LUKE: "But I didn’t realize…"

VADER: "So, once more, little Jedi. Will you join with me, and let me teach you the uses of the dark side of the force…or will you at the last minute remember your oath and die?"

LUKE: "I’ve wasted and thrown away all the careful teaching I was given. I betrayed my trust, I broke my oath. I would prefer to die."

VADER: "You’re a fool, Luke. Nevertheless, it can be arranged. You’re weak, little Jedi, without the dark side. But I warn you that if you use it once more, you are lost…forfeit in this world and the next."

Here, it's ego driven anger that would turn Luke. Lucas had trouble with this and that's why he needed something more honest enough to be a factor. The question is when did Lucas come up with the solution. Kasdan seems to agree that the idea was in place when he came on board. The gray area is Marcia's account versus George's.

 

Luke winning the affections of Leia was also a factor in this, if I'm not mistaken (judging by the excerpts of Brackett's draft that are in Rinzler's TMOTESB). As for the 'honest' factor, what I meant is that Vader as the literal destroyer of Luke's family would seem to be a better lure for Luke rather than Vader-is-your-father, although I can see where Luke's father becoming Darth Vader could play into the 'destruction' of Luke's family, in a sense.

"But I’m twenty years older and stronger than you in the use of the Force. You haven’t a chance with me…any more than your father had."

Now, I have a hard time believing that this line didn't cause Lucas any concern, namely making a believable story arc where Vader supposedly bests Luke's father in battle, but where Luke would be able to succeed against Vader where his father had failed?

A solution to a 'problem' that, upon closer examination, seems to be a problem only one insists that Luke's character arc - or his arc as a Jedi - is to be considered complete by this film's ('Chapter Two', ESB's) end. Here, we don't know for sure if this was a salient point of Lucas, or of Brackett. In the story meeting stage with Brackett, it seems that Lucas was proposing this idea, but by the time Brackett finished her draft, he may have already changed his mind. As for raising the stakes, I'll elaborate on my last post. Say come the third film (ROTJ), Lucas says "just kidding, Vader lied". Would the 'raising of the dramatic stakes' in ESB have been worth the effort, in the end? It can't be a cheap thing done just for drama's sake, if it's something honest, as you said, it only works if it was part of the story to begin with.

Well, as I've mentioned before, Marcia's account has things about it that make it seem less likely to have been the case. It would be interesting to know what Kazanjian said on the matter. As for George, remember that in the same video doc (From Star Wars to Jedi), on the ROTJ section, Lucas admits to not having Vader threaten to turn Leia in the final script for Jedi, and that it was added practically during shooting. Here, Lucas is admitting to not having everything mapped out.

I believe that many are assigning an 'authority' to Brackett's draft that may be unwarranted. How much of it reflected Luca's intentions? How much was Brackett's interpretation? Does this draft reflect Lucas's intentions for Star Wars circa late 1977? Some seem to project the assumptions of Bracketts draft even further back to the making of the first film, even though some of the backstory details given in her draft would conflict with what Lucas had at the time of 1975/1976 (for example, the character of Yoda hadn't been created yet).

edit:

Kasdan said that he was told by Lucas that Vader was Luke's father, point blank, not merely that Vader would claim to be Luke's father. But we don't really know the exact details of when he was told or under what circumstances. Whereas Lucas didn't tell Brackett. However, this is not the 'smoking gun' argument against Lucas already having the notion of Vader being Luke's father that some people think it is. The thing with Huyck being the originator of the idea early 1978 prompts me to ask: is the assumption then that Lucas didn't flesh out the details of how Vader was Luke's father until pre-production of Jedi? By details, I mean that Anakin turned to the dark side and became Darth Vader.

 

continued from post #305:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the claim that Huyck proposed the idea to Lucas as a 'fix' for Brackett's script is based upon imho the flawed assumption that Lucas was up to this point intending the Vader-killed-Luke's father in the literal sense to be sole interpretation of the story that he set out to tell in the first film (and had not set-up the twist when writing the first film).

edit:

There's also this to consider of the Brackett draft: the numerous plot points from the final film (and in subsequent drafts) that are missing from this draft (some even present in Lucas's story treatment):

1. No carbon-freezing chamber. Han in this draft is not captured by a bounty hunter, but escapes Cloud City along with the other heroes, only leaving with Chewie in the very last scene. This also impacts the confrontation between Vader and Luke, because (since there's no freezing chamber) it's not so much about Vader trying to capture Luke, as it is about him turning Luke to the dark side. Vader starts out in this draft trying to kill Luke, but this changes by the draft's second act.

2. Han and Chewie leave to meet Han's 'step-father'. In the story treatment, they were leaving the rebel base in the beginning to pay off their debt to Jabba. A plot point which Lucas brought back in subsequent drafts.

3. The Hoth Battle barely appears in this drafts. The base is attacked by Wampa's, while the Imperials attack. The focus in this drafts is more on the ice creatures attack than it is on the Imperials.

 

continued from post #306

4. The Rebels vs. Empire/Galactic political situation is given more prominence here than in subsequent drafts. Possibly, during story meetings involving Lucas, Kasdan, and Kershner, the decision was made to have the film/story imply that the Hoth base is perhaps the Rebel's only base. It may be that how the situation was described in her draft was more of a reflection of how Brackett felt the story should have progressed from the first film, rather than Lucas' thoughts on the matter. In fact, Commander Willard and General Dodona make their re-appearance in this draft, whereas subsequently they do not appear in later drafts, and are re-placed by General Rieekan

 

It would be really interesting if Lucas had said to Brackett "I'm considering maybe revealing that Vader is actually Luke's father, but I'm not 100% certain about it so let's hold off on that idea for the moment."

Unfortunately, the specific details of anything Lucas might have said about Luke's father in the story conferences were omitted from JW Rinzler's The Making of ESB, presumably at Lucasfilm's behest.

 

"I wanted the father to be Darth Vader, but I also wanted a father figure. So, I created Ben as the other half. You have one who is the light half and one who is the dark half...the positive and the negative. This sort of gave a twist to the whole story."
- From Star Wars, 'The Annotated Screenplays', pg 34 (1997)

I found that quote to be interesting. Even if not explicitly part of the surface story/plot, it could very easily have been a concept he had when writing the third and fourth drafts.

 

That's why I believe that the missing pages contains the truth about what was the plan for Vader and Anakin. One way or another, it's in there. Whatever the truth is, Lucas has been adamant about keeping it from public view.

 

Even if the truth turns out that he was already planning on making Vader the father? I mean, 'why hide it?'. Yes, ok. I understand the sentiment, but then pretty much the entire 40-page outline of the "Journal of the Whills" has also been kept from public view. I'd say theirs more of Lucas' written material that the public hasn't seen than that has. I'm not sure that any definitive conclusions can really be drawn from that fact. We know that her draft said that Yoda trained both Ben and Luke's father, yet Lucas' statements at the time suggested Ben had trained both Luke's father and Vader. Maybe the truth of what he was planning isn't far off from what he's claimed.

Really the 'Huyck solution' is the old 'plot mechanics deus ex machina' except now it involves someone other than Lucas. The old version was that one of the following three things drove Lucas to make Vader into the father (post-Brackett's draft): 1) Ben's death, or 2) multiple ghosts on Dagobah, or 3) weak ending at Cloud City. But such an approach has little space for realizing that there's a conceptual aspect that doesn't rely on these surface story elements.

 

Surely the fact that Lucas bent over backwards in later years to hide almost everything about his early ideas for the backstory of Luke's father would suggest that he wasn't already planning on making Vader Luke's father before ESB?

 

I'm not so sure it suggests that. Like I mentioned, there's a LOT of his backstory notes that he hasn't released to the public, not all of it relating to the backstory of Luke's father. Now, it is possible that his early ideas may have touched upon the ultimate origins of Luke's father, which may or may not conflict with what Lucas decided later on to 'imply' about Anakin's origins when he made the Prequels (and later on).

Now, there is an aspect of this that I believe @only one kenobi might have touched upon in another thread; namely, Lucas being caught somewhat off-guard by the popularity of Vader's character after the first Star Wars film came out. This may have given him pause when it came to making the second movie (TESB), whether or not to have Vader reveal his ultimate identity to Luke. The first draft written by Brackett, may be seen as Lucas considering holding off on the revelation and saving it for the third film. Now, "how can Vader deny or forget who he was and not tell Luke during their confrontation?" you might ask. Well, what if Vader was under some sort of dark side 'spell', where he really believed he was Vader and that he had actually, literally killed Skywalker Sr (his actual former self)? This is where I think the earlier (August of 1977?) story note, prior to hiring Brackett, might have come into play. If indeed his earlier plan (circa Dec 1975/Jan 1976) was to have Vader's identity revealed at the end of the second 'book', the unplanned for popularity of Vader's character following the first film may have had him temporarily consider having that revelation happen in the third film instead. Hence, his 'going back and forth' about it, and not telling Leigh Brackett about it.

So, in the end, maybe the 'Huyck solution' - and making ESB's ending work better - was what pushed him to have Vader reveal who he is at the end of ESB after all (and not push that into the next film, where Luke was supposed to 'break the spell'...).

 

continued from post #313

So, Huyck very well could have suggested the idea that Vader is the one who reveals his identity to Luke and that he does so during their confrontation at Cloud City. Lucas' original plan was only that we the audience would learn who he is, not necessarily that Vader himself would reveal that information.

 

But in the Brackett draft, there is a scene where Luke talks with the Force-Ghost of his father.
The father tells him of his sister, how she is hidden and all that.

So here Vader can not be Luke's father as the ghost of that father shows up.
So if Lucas was going back and forth about Vader being Luke's father, then how can there be a scene where it is made clear that Vader is NOT Luke's father?
If he was unsure and for some reason did not talk it over with Brackett, why have this scene?
And why didn't he talk it over with Brackett, get her input. He hired her to write the script, they had story meetings, why not ask her?

If Vader's revelation was not that he was Luke's father but say his cousin or older brother, then this scene can work. But those alternatives could lead to other questions.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

It's a possibility that the idea for the ghost scene was specifically Brackett's idea and not Lucas'. It'd be very easy to take that scene out - and what I said about Lucas' plans re: Vader would still be operable.

But since you mentioned the ghosts, I'll bring up something else that bothers me with the 'orthodox' 'accepted' story. Lucas at this point (Brackett's draft) has only recently come up with the idea of having Ben (Obi-Wan) appearing as a Force ghost. Prior to that, he was considering having Ben just be a disembodied voice (like during the Death Star battle at the end of the previous film). We're being asked to believe that he goes from 'disembodied voice' to 'Force Ghost' to "Father Skywalker Force Ghost" to "Vader is Luke's father!"...in less than a six-to-eight-month period?

 

continued from post #316

I'll just say I think there's a reason why the story of a great Father Jedi being betrayed/murdered/killed by a supposedly novice Jedi - with the former having *never himself learned how to become a Force ghost - has a ring of un-truth to it.

*To answer the potential question of "why didn't he appear in the first film?", as an assumed motive for why Lucas would consider having a Force ghost Skywalker father character in the second film

 

Since Lucas didn't decide to kill Obi-Wan until midway through writing the fourth draft, he had no intention of having a ghost appear. He and Guinness discussed how to turn Obi-Wan's death into something more. Lucas then interviewed with Paul Scanlon in at least January of 77. By this point, Lucas had not decided on what would happen next. Six months is enough time to decide whether Guinness would be visible.

 

Eve IF Brackett came up with the idea of Force-Ghost Anakin, she and Lucas talked, he could tell her no.
If the plan was for Vader to be the father, this scene could never work.
Did she come up with the idea of Force-Ghosts period? She had the idea of Obi-Wan appearing as a ghost and also added the ghost of Luke's father? And all without any input from Lucas?
And at no point did he tell her to drop it?
Sorry this does not sound very plausible.

As for the time-frame.
Lucas worked with Brackett, they did a first draft and revisions to that draft. In it we have the sister to Luke. Did she also come up with this as it is the ghost of Luke's father that mentions her?
But Lucas was not happy with this draft but when he tried to contact Brackett, she was now very ill and could no longer work.

So he was left with a draft he did not like and no writer. So he had to go at it himself.
The father character is pretty redundant, nothing he says could not be said by Obi-Wan or Yoda.
So remove the father was an option but how about combining the redundant father with Vader.
That will add a lot to the story and to Luke's journey as a character.
From what I have read, Lucas was not very fast as a writer nor did he enjoy it very much but with the drafts of ESB after Brackett and before Kasdan, he worked quite fast. He seemed to have been inspired.
That what before had been like pulling teeth now flowed easily.

So I have no problem with Lucas looking at the first draft of ESB and not liking it and coming up with the idea to merge Vader and father Skywalker. And being inspired by that idea, doing lots of writing himself.

Lastly, the ghost of a slain father appearing to the son is not exactly uncommon. Hamlet is an easy example.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

The ghost idea could have very well been Lucas' idea. I see a couple of scenarios that would seem plausible. One being that working under the assumption that Vader is actually the result of a 'spell' put upon the father (Skwalker) character, the 'ghost' could actually be a message to Luke from his father back in the past, back before he had turned/transformed. Or...this scene was a 'placeholder' scene for something else, perhaps the 'Vision in the Cave' scene? It's possible that Lucas had years earlier envisioned something like the cave scene as being where "we learn who Darth Vader is" (none other than Luke's father), rather than Vader himself being the one who divulges this information to Luke (the latter idea possibly being Willard Huyck's idea).

So if Lucas got 'cold feet' about this revelation - per @patbuddha - it could be that he had reservations about revealing this fact in the second film, and instead thinking of pushing it into the next (third) film (and not necessarily thinking about omitting the Vader-as-father twist entirely).

As to the speed at which Lucas wrote his draft(s) for Empire, that's one more reason why I find the scenario implausible that he came up with the Vader-as-father out of whole cloth solely at that point (and not earlier).

"Lucas worked with Brackett, they did a first draft and revisions to that draft. In it we have the sister to Luke. Did she also come up with this as it is the ghost of Luke's father that mentions her?"

Put it this way: If Lucas really did have an idea/concept for a sister for Luke back in 1975/1976, it seems more likely to me that it would have been Leia, and not some new and as yet unseen character named 'Neilith' (notice that in the margin notes to Brackett's draft, Lucas even crosses out her name or writes the word 'no')

As to the father ghost's appearance:
"He is described as a tall, fine-looking man and is referred to as Skywalker." - from page 182 of 'The Annotated Screenplays' 1997

A 'tall' man...just like Darth Vader.

 

To me, having the ghost of Anakin show up and then also have Anakin be alive as Vader, explaining that could very well be a bit cumbersome. If they did that, then the simplest way to explain it would be what I suggested a long time ago, that Anakin and VaderARE separate people. And Vader did kill Anakin BUT Anakin is not the father to Luke, Vader is. However neither Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan or the Emperor knows that, only Vader does. But having the ghost of Luke's father show up and Luke talk to him and then reveal that he wasn't Luke's father, that could feel like a cheat.

But IF Lucas had the Vader think in mind, why wait?
If Luke and Vader confront each other in film two but no father revelation then obvious question would arise, why? Did Vader not know? How and if he did, why not use it?
Also, if the reveal happens in the third film, would the Vader-Luke conflict be resolved in the same film?
That seems a bit of a waste, imagine the OT but no father reveal in ESB but that comes in RotJ and Vader then gives up his life to save Luke. Not taking advantage of having more than one film. Far better to have the reveal in film two and resolution in film three.

Why?
If he was unhappy with the draft and saw the dead father character as redundant and had the idea to combine the character with Vader instead. That solved some of his problems and added a lot of conflict.
Why could this not have been a moment of inspiration?

Other stuff was changed as well. Instead of Han looking to find his foster father, the debt to Jabba is brought back and Han ends the film as a captive. Maybe that came about because Harrison Ford had not yet committed to further films.

Earlier drafts of ANH had siblings to the Luke character, both older and younger. In one I think there was a younger sister called Leia but she was 10-11 years old. Not really the Leia character in the film.
And that Lucas had Leia as she is in ANH as the sister back then, doubt it.
Luke's infatuation with her plus the very romantic scenes that were filmed for ESB but later cut.
These do not suggest a sister reveal.

Plus, IIRC, Leia and Luke's ages are different in the later drafts of ANH.
So they could not be twins and that would mean that Anakin/Vader had Luke and then had another child.
So he had Luke before turning evil.

A lost sibling is a common trope and would give Luke a bit more of a family.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

In the first draft, Annikin had a younger brother named Deak. In the second draft, Luke had multiple siblings who were older and younger than him. Leia was a cousin, but she was really the Princess of Ondos. Afterwards, Luke was an only child until the first draft of TESB. Then he abandoned that idea because in the next drafts, Yoda and Obi-Wan say different things.

Second draft.

YODA: "Now we must find another."

OBI-WAN: "He is our only hope."

Third draft.

OBI-WAN: "The boy is our last hope.

YODA: "No, we must search for another."

Then it changes to what it is now. By this point, Lucas had decided that the other was going to be related to Luke. It seems like it was Leia, but along the way it became Vader.

 

Whether Leia actually was the "Princess of Ondos" in the 1975 second draft isn't clear: the only mention of that title is in a second text crawl at the end of the script, which said the second film would be about the search for that Princess. It's certainly possible, though.

And don't forget that in Leigh Brackett's ESB draft, Luke's twin sister was entirely separate from Leia, and was in fact named Nellith - a name Brackett is extremely unlikely to have pulled out of thin air.

 

The full text title crawl references the kidnapping of the Lars and the search for the Princess. That's why it looks like they are one in the same.

A ROLL-UP TITLE appears:

…And a thousand new systems joined the rebellion, causing a significant crack in the great wall of the powerful Galactic Empire. The Starkiller would once again spark fear in the hearts of the Sith knights, but not before his sons were put to many tests… the most daring of which was the kidnapping of the Lars family, and the perilous search for:

“The Princess of Ondos.”

 

To me it sounds like they were two different plot strands. The Lars family is simply kidnapped (by the Empire? by pirates? Who knows), but "the perilous search for the Princess of Ondos" makes it sound like the Princess' whereabouts are more mysterious than a mere case of abduction, and the heroes might be seeking her for other reasons (eg, tracking down the long-lost heir to a throne, LOTR-style).

Plus, "the Princess of Ondos" is stated outright to be royalty, while the Larses are clearly pretending to be common farmers to the galaxy at large, despite their secret role as fosterers of the Starkiller family.

I do agree that moisture-farmer Leia Lars being ultimately revealed as the Princess was certainly a possibility. After all, this whole title crawl was just Lucas trying to shoehorn in Leia's plotline from the rough draft for a sequel, since it largely fell out of the second draft.