Saga Here is my unorthodox Star Wars opinion: change my mind!

you...have seen Ahsoka the first season right?

why not?

"even you Master of the knights of Ren...have never faced such a test"

they seemed a big deal, yeah, yeah, TROS director retcons his own movie, but still, give reasons.

the what now?

 

I would be surprised if Acolyte is at the level of Andor and not at the level of Book of Boba Fett and Kenobi in quality tier

The Rey movie its unnecessary and i would be surprised if dont Flop the movie Dawn of the Jedi caught my attention more

 

Yes. Palpatine didn't know Peridea. At the time of the OT, they were gone.

TBF, Ben was stronger than any of them before TROS. The only other threat was his uncle.

The Dagoyan Masters of Bardotta. They were in TCW episodes "The Disappeared". Mace and Jar Jar had to investigate the disappearance of several Dagoyan Masters by the Frangawl Cult, who were being manipulated by Talzin.

 

But but I thought Star Wars Fans worshipped the guy...

Sent from my SM-A716V using Tapatalk

 

Not since he fired our true god Gary Kurtz.

 

Han, just like everybody else, is directly effected by the negative impact of the Empire. (Most EU even has him being a part of it for awhile). Everything the Sith do, and the Jedi do to stop them, has a ripple effect on everybody. Whether Han believes in the Force or not has no bearing on if it, and the people using it, has an effect on his life.

And if the Jedi are impaired by the imbalance to the Force, they are impaired in their ability to protect the galaxy from the tyranny.

But the Sith Empire is causing more suffering on a grand scale amongst people, freedoms, environments and entire planets. Robbing valuable resources, economies, ecosystems, etc.

But the Sith Empire is creating an oppressive environment. And flooding the galaxy with propaganda - rebellion is called terrorism, etc. Think of the Eastern Bloc in the Soviet era, nobody could talk about the oppression, and everyone was paranoid of their neighbors being Soviet spies, etc.
And once the Empire is gone, there no place for the kinds of people that would join an evil Empire to be in positions of military power.

When greedy, power-hungry people are in control, life and freedom are out of balance. And living under a cloud of oppression is barely living.

It's implied that it's the Sith's plan. With the Force out of balance, the Jedi are blind to their machinations. I wouldn't think that was just blind luck on the Sith's part.

It appears Bane's Sith line grew so powerful while in hiding that they were able to cloud the Jedi's vision. A level of power never before achieved by other bad guys. This doesn't seem like an accident.

And with the Jedi's ability to use the Force being impaired, the galaxy's last line of defense against unstoppable evil is gone, and with it the balance of life, as it veers towards potential annihilation.

And the balance of the Force is a metaphor for the balance within one's self, which is a poignant thing. And ultimately it's the same concept; the good vs. the bad, but within the psyche. All tales of good and bad come down to keeping the balance within one's self. When you can no longer control the bad, or, that which causes undue suffering to yourself and others, and it controls you, your freedom and your personal balance is off.

Sure the OT is about good guys fighting bad guys, but as we see, both Luke and Anakin had to find the balance within themselves to be the good guys. Even Han overcame his selfishness, and also his prejudices (i.e. with the Ewoks).

But what kind of life is living under the constant fear and undue suffering of tyranny, with no fighting chance of stopping it?

I can't speak to how conscious the Force may or may not be, but we know some beings are born with the ability to use it. So I could imagine it possibly may be "aware" of this in some capacity.

Either way, my guess is, this ability is endowed in some beings so they can stop bad guys from causing large scale suffering and help keep a galactic civilization in relative peace. Whether that's a product of evolution, or a conscious decision by a higher power, isn't clarified to my knowledge.

Each Force sensitive being has the free choice in how they use their connection to the Force. Some choose to alleviate suffering, some to increase suffering.

So, if some Force sensitives end up abusing this power for selfish gain, and it gets to the point where they have impaired the selfless Force user's abilities to keep them under control, and all the beings of the galaxy begin to suffer needlessly under the subjugation of the evil doers who achieve their power through... the Force, well...

it's only right for equilibrium to have the chance of being restored somehow. Yet, the fate of life is still in the hands of the people.

And I'd say the message from the movies and Lucas interviews is that, everybody is meant to do the right thing, in a matter of speaking; in other words, to make the world a better place in their own way, that brings them joy. It would be a shame if life made the long climb to consciousness just to destroy itself through greed, hate and fear. The universe may be unfair, and there may be some people who chose to do evil, but the rest can chose to do what they can to make the universe a more caring place.

Well, unlike other bad guys, Bane's Sith line had grown so powerful that they were able to impair the Jedi's ability to use the Force and thus defend the galaxy. There will always be bad guys doing bad things, and the good guys usually have have a fighting chance at keeping them at bay, but no other bad guys have attained the Sith's kind of power

It was Bane's Sith line who threw the Force out of balance, so it's that line that needs to end, so they can no longer wreak havoc unimpeded. If it had been Bad, Bad Leroy Brown who grew powerful enough to throw the Force out of balance to his advantage, then it would be him who would need to be stopped in order to restore the balance.

I'm of the minority that would say the Sith are not specifically mentioned in the prophecy. But it is them who tipped the balance, therefore it is naturally them who need to be stopped for restoration to occur.

 

Correct. The Sith are the only ones depicted as being the problem, not the Nightsisters.

 

Creating the Chosen One Prophecy, saying that Anakin was destined to destroy the Sith, and thus creating the conditions for the Sith not to return after Return of the Jedi, is the best retcon that was ever introduced to Star Wars. Putting a limit on the Sith's ability to return after Return of the Jedi forces the writers to come up with original, more interesting villains instead of reusing the Sith over and over again. And that is good, especially when you consider that the Sith have often similar reasons for turning to the Dark Side (they are all selfish and want power), which often results in the Sith being very similar to each other, which is boring. Too bad no one cared about this limit neither in Legends or Canon.

 

It's ridiculous to believe that no future would ever turn to the dark side. Even Lucas understood that. He was just making a point that whatever threat would appear, be it a Force user or otherwise, they wouldn't be the Sith from Darth Bane's line.

 

Nobody even cared about the Sith "being destroyed" before the PT made it a thing. Until the Prequels, most folks didn't know what a Sith Lord was..really.

Some folks, mostly fans, just heard/read that Vader was a Sith Lord. It didn't mean much. Hell, people didn't even know The Emperor was a Sith Lord.

 

That's irrelevant.

 

Their ability to protect the galaxy was more impaired by their lack of intelligence.
Even with their sensing being weaker, they could have done a lot more and did not.
Also, if the Jedi are so used to the Force telling them what they need to know and when that goes away, they are totally lost. Then that shows how dependent the Jedi have let themselves become. That when their Force sensing goes away, they have no clue what to do. They have let their thinking atrophy and when they need it again, it is not there.

However, the Sith Empire in the OT is not the first such Sith Empire. We are told that the Sith did rule the galaxy in the past and it was apparently not pleasant.
Was the Force pushed out of balance then? Apparently not.

So Sith ruling the galaxy and being quite powerful, then it did not cause the Force to be unbalanced but now, for some reason it does?

Is it? Has this happened before? That powerful Sith have been able to cloud the Jedi?
If it has, then yes that could be their plan and that would explain how Yoda knew that only the Sith would know of their weakness. But if it has happened before, why then was the Force not unbalanced then?

And if this is new thing that has never happened before, then it is luck that the sith caused it.
And Yoda would not have any way of knowing what has caused it or how someone could know it.

According to some here, the Force is mindless, it is just an energy field. It can not think in any way.
The ones able to think somewhat are the Whills, that feed upon the Force. And apparently, their only concern is that too much Dark Side use makes their "food" taste bad. So their solution is to create a "Chosen One" in a random location. They have never done this before and has no idea what will happen, they just do it and hope for the best.

Except, it really doesn't. It lies in the hands of "The Champion of God", Anakin. He and only he can kill the Sith and this will restore Balance. Other people should get out of the way and let him do his job.
And if he had done his job and balance restored, the rest of the people should just go on like they have done before. They are not required to learn anything or do anything. Just sit back and let the Chosen One deal with the problem.

And if you have "God or Gods" in a setting and show they want something and can take direct action to achieve that something. Then you invite questions about why they do A but not B.
If the Force/Whills is able to create a being with beyond normal Force powers and his function is to kill the Sith. Why not just kill the Sith? Or weaken them so the Jedi can kill them?

But most if not all of this is not actually IN the PT+OT. Palpatine is powerful yes but nothing says that he is the most powerful Sith that has ever lived. Bane is never mentioned.
Yoda was able to fight Palpatine quite well and it was a close thing. Suppose that Mace had also been there and say 4-5 other Jedi. Would Palpatine had been able to win then?

Take the battle at the start of RotS. Suppose that one clone trooper had aimed a bit differently and blown up the tower of Griev ship. Palpatine, Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin, dead. Balance restored.

If the Sith in the past has never caused this and this is the first time this has happened.
How would the Jedi conclude that the Sith are responsible?
The Sith have never done this before.
And if the Force has never before been out of balance, would the Jedi think such a thing could even happen?
The Jedi have been around for some 20-25 000 years based on what Obi-Wan said in ANH.
And if in all that time, the Force has never been out of balanced. Would the Jedi even consider that as possible?

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

In what way is it irrelevant? The argument was that: "Creating the Chosen One Prophecy, saying that Anakin was destined to destroy the Sith, and thus creating the conditions for the Sith not to return after Return of the Jedi, is the best retcon that was ever introduced to Star Wars. Putting a limit on the Sith's ability to return after Return of the Jedi..."

But if the storyline introduced the Sith, then the storyline is only 'fixing' a problem the storyline itself introduced. In other words, there wasn't a problem of there being Sith who pushed the Force out of balance and needed destroying. That no such problem existed that needed 'fixing' is entirely relevant.

 

Yeah. What @only one kenobi said!

 

Because last time the Jedi and the galaxy were in a position to fight and defeat the Sith, and the Sith were too busy fighting each other to win. This time the Jedi were weak and the Sith were united, and the Republic was fractured, unable and unwilling to fight for itself.

They may not have control over where Anakin was born, but did guide Qui-Gon to Watto's shop.

Anakin is the Chosen One because he is the only one who can get close enough to Palpatine in order to kill him. He dies from an act of betrayal and that balances the Force. The Jedi cannot beat him because they are weakened and scattered around the galaxy when Order 66 occurs. Yoda is not strong enough and Mace was betrayed. Luke is not fully trained and in no position to win. If Vader hadn't turned or if Luke had, Palpatine would have enough time to escape before the Death Star blows.

Everything is dependent on this moment in time. That's why in the ROTS novelization Mace realizes that Anakin is Palpatine's weakness, his Shatterpoint. He trusted Anakin and whatever choice he made would decide the fate of everyone.

Well, obviously they couldn't.

Considering the that three of the Jedi who confronted him were among the best of them and they died quickly and Yoda says that Obi-Wan would die, it's blatant obvious that more Jedi would die. There's a reason Lucas said that only Mace and Yoda could compete with him, but they could not beat him.

Yes, but fortunately that didn't happen and most of Palpatine's plans went accordingly.

The Sith were introduced when Vader walks through the door and into the Tantive IV, in ANH. It doesn't matter that the word was never uttered onscreen until the PT. Boba Fett's name is not uttered in TESB, but that was his name. The Tusken Raiders are never named in ANH, but that's what they were. Until TFA, no one said Leia's last name, yet it was Organa. Palpatine's name is not said in the OT, but it was Palpatine.

That's why it's irrelevant to say that the word Sith creates a retcon when it was already sent up and part of the lore. And it didn't matter who knew any of those things.

 

I did not say that no other person would ever be capable of falling to the Dark Side after Return of the Jedi. I just said that no other Sith should exist after Return of the Jedi. A Sith is not the same thing as a Dark Side user, and you should know that better than me. We can perfectly have a story with Dark Side users who don't identify as Sith, like Kylo Ren for example. Besides, Anakin was not meant to destroy the Sith from Darth Bane's line, that's just a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" argument. Anakin was meant to destroy The Sith. Period. It's not my fault if George Lucas isn't capable of carrying out the consequences of what is established in the films.

 

Lucas had no investment in the EU, so it didn't matter to him regarding the Sith who appeared post NJO. The narrative that the teachings could be found or someone was unaccounted for made sense. His plan to have Maul in the ST was probably because it would be easier to use an established foe, rather than creating a new one so late in the game. That was the problem with Snoke in the first two films.

 

Interpreting the Chosen One storyline in Episodes I-VI as "Anakin destroys the Sith for good and that's what the prophecy implied" is valid - especially if that hexalogy is viewed as an isolated saga - but it's not a definitive reading. It's never stated or implied in the movies that when the Sith are gone, they'll never be able to return, nor is it stated or implied that the mere existence of the Sith disrupts the balance of the Force. All they say is that, according to a prophecy that may have been misread, the Chosen One is to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. Furthermore, what the movies show us is that the current state of imbalance is caused by the Sith.
So, what ROTJ tells us is that the prophecy seems to not have been misread since Anakin does destroy the Sith, thus allowing balance to return.
And that's all. The balance can definitely be disrupted again, by a resurgent Sith Order or other darksiders - and the Sith can absolutely reappear without becoming influential enough to disrupt the balance as severely as they once did.

 

I could go the rest of my life with never seeing another frontier dirt settlement in Star Wars again.

 

I made a flow chart.


After the end of Bane's Sith line (Sidious and Vader), if somebody wants to be a Sith, they will have to start from square one, and it will likely take generations to become as powerful as Sidious was and thus tip the balance, (i.e. cloud the Jedi's vision, making them blind to the Sith's machinations).
New dark siders/Sith won't have the benefit of the direct teachings and power dynamics that had been passed down through Bane's line. Just like the first Siths. They might be self-proclaimed Sith in name, but far from the peak of their former accumulated power, and the good guys will have a fighting chance at keeping them at bay.

As far as the prophecy is concerned, the Force is out of balance.
Bane's Sith line caused this imbalance. It doesn't matter what their sect is called, these individuals have accumulated the power to throw the Force out of balance and pass this knowledge down each generation.

And it doesn't matter what name future dark side users attribute to themselves, or their sect, if they haven't had all the accumulated knowledge of Bane's line passed down directly to them, they're not powerful enough to throw the Force out of balance.

The Force is out of balance in general.

Because Bane's Sith line in specific caused this imbalance.

If you can end this line, the balance will return.


If a Jedi (post-RotJ) were to go to the dark side and even find some old Sith teachings, they wouldn't tip the balance, because they wouldn't have all the teachings directly passed down to them.

Now take Maul for another example. He was an apprentice to Sidious, but fell away from that line at a relatively young age, and had been trained primarily as a warrior. Powerful was he, but not that powerful. Maul is not powerful enough to tip the balance, but with an apprentice and organized crime on his side, Maul would still be a formidable opponent to a small and new Jedi Order and a newly re-established Republic trying to get back up on its feet.

 

@Subtext Mining

Darth Bane does not exist in this dojo. I'm talking movies only. Dig the flowchart though. Not trying to be rude. Just how it is. I mean, I don't think Lucas ever differentiated/got as specific as to certain sects/lineages of Sith. You get me a quote with Lucas talking about Darth Bane and I'll re-engage. Thanks!

 

The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of the era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.

As Ki-Adi-Mundi states in Episode I, the Sith have been extinct for a millenium; however, not all were wiped out. A surviving Sith Lord sought to rebuild the order, to retake the galaxy, and to take revenge. This Sith Lord realized the dangers of having too many in the order, so he kept his existence a secret. It would be a long time coming, but he carefully plotted revenge. There would be only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice, working in secret, planting the seeds for their eventual rise.

By Episode III, the Sith are ready to reveal themselves. There's no more need for subterfuge, no more need for skulking in the shadows. Darth Sidious, the Sith mastermind, will make good on a 1000-year plot to finally avenge the fallen order, destroy the Jedi Knights, and retake command of the galaxy.

--Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 60.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an Apprentice. And for thousands of years, the Master would teach the Apprentice, the Master would die, the Apprentice would then teach another Apprentice, become the Master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.


BANE: "Do you know who I am?"

YODA: "Yes. Darth Bane. The ancient Sith Lord, you are."

BANE: "And know why I am not forgotten?"

YODA: "Created the Rule of Two you did. The Sith killed each other...Victims of their own greed."

BANE: "But from the ashes of destruction, I was the last survivor. I chose to pass my knowledge on to only one. I created a legacy so resilient that now you come before me. Have you come to be my apprentice? You must kill me to gain my place."

YODA: "Dead you are already."

BANE: "Then what stands before you?"

YODA: "An illusion. Real you are not."

BANE: "You do not fear me?"

YODA: "No. Exist you do not anymore."

Approved by Lucas.

 

Bane: voiced by none other then Mark Hamill in this scene

 

I have no issue with any of this.

However, let's consider things approved by Lucas:

 

It's not the only possible explanation, but in my opinion it's the most coherent and the less convoluted. Besides, I don't like the idea of the Sith coming back again, again and again after Palpatine's death, because I personally think that it would be more interesting to explore other possible Dark Side sects after Return of the Jedi. We don't need the Sith to have Dark Side villains. In fact, I always liked the concept of the Knights of Ren in theory, even though it was poorly used.