PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

Again, neither Anakin nor Obi-wan think that Obi-wan is as wise as Yoda (and therefore, not as strong as Windu, either). That's from their actual statements and behavior in the script of Star Wars films. You all keep using headcanon and fan fiction to supplement your interpretations.

Same questions to you that I asked to Nerdling. First, if the whole point was to make Anakin turn by showing Mace arresting him. . .why didn't Anakin turn at the Jedi Temple, when he clearly said for himself that Mace was going to arrest Palpatine? What happened in that office was exactly what Mace promised and Anakin anticipated. Two, if Palpatine's goal was to look weak and innocent, why have killed the other three Jedi? Why scream, as evilly as possible "No, no, you will die"? None of those things make him look helpless. They rub it in everyone's face exactly how evil he is. If this was supposed to trick Anakin, it was a manifestly terrible job.

 

Yup!!! If Anakin were to say Kenobi was as strong as Yoda….then he might as well call Kenobi the most powerful Jedi. So he said a more reasonable comparison.

You totally missed the point.

Anakin:
I’m going to TURN YOU OVER TO THE JEDI COUNCIL.

Palpatine:
Of course you should….BUT YOUR NOT SURE OF THEIR INTENTIONS ARE YOU??

Anakin:
I will QUICKLY DISCOVER THE TRUTH TO ALL OF THIS.

Hmmmmm what should Palpatine do next???

Of course Anakin knew ….he is there to HELP THE JEDI ARREST HIM to begin with …that’s what we have been telling you. So how can Palpatine change Anakin from arrest to joining him instead????

Kill Mace before the ARRESTING Anakin shows up??

When Anakin told Mace…he was also testing them of their intentions. Saying they are going to need his help IF they are going to arrest him.

Mace said NO! Hmmmm don’t you think Anakin will see that as sketchy…why not let him come IF THEY ARE REALLY GOING TO ARREST HIM?

Then Palpatine called out to him:

“If the Jedi DESTROY ME any chance of saving her would be lost.”

There you go….Palpatine just told you and the whole audience what WILL HAPPEN NEXT before it happened.

Then Anakin walks in to an unarmed Chancellor on the floor with an aggressive Mace with a lightsaber pointing at him.

So when Anakin entered Mace says you are under arrest.

Palpatine countered, with I told you I was right the Jedi are taking over!!

(So was Mace really going to assassinate the Chancellor and just switched to arrest when I walked in or was he really going to arrest him?)

Anakin still did nothing. So Palpatine did his lightning to make Mace from arrest to kill.

Palpatine has the right to kill his assassins if he thinks his life is in danger. However when he “gave up” and Mace went for the kill which is a Sith thing to do.

It got Anakin to actually say…It’s NOT THE JEDI WAY. HE MUST STAND TRIAL.

That’s when Anakin finally chose. Check Mate. Why is that so hard to understand??? You said so yourself that Palpatine has to be in that position for Anakin to finally get off the fence.

Wow! No offense but have you trained with any sort of fight training??

Those fencing strategies of fighting multiple opponents are just choreography. Talk to any fighter and they will say NO ONE IN REAL LIFE can take on multiple fighters with the same skill level and beat them no matter what kind of training you do.

Bruce Lee, John Wick Steven Segal are actors. One person fighting multiple fighters are a HOLLYWOOD FANTASY FABRICATION to show how powerful that one person is.

In real life….Jon Jones, Mike Tyson in his prime, or Conor Mcgregor cannot beat multiple TRAINED
Fighters at the same time. Yeah if they fought 4 average Joes who never fought at at all then yes. But not 4 Trained Fighters.

Stop believing those demonstrations of Segal taking out multiple opponents with his Akido. Lots of real MMA fighters had debunked those fake kung fu or shaolin fighters.

This is a movie. And Palpatine taking on 4 Jedi Masters who are in the Jedi Council is to show the audience how powerful he really is.

No one in their right mind will think…umm maybe Palpatine has trained for multiple opponents. Taekwondo do katas for multiple opponents….guess what that only works against people who never fought before….against 4 trained MMA fighters that one person is done no matter how much he trained for that multiple fighters.

 

It takes him the length of time it take to kill 3 Jedi to adjust to the situation? No, I think someone who is supposed to be an incredible swordsman would adjust to the situation immediately, especially because Force-wielders can anticipate things an instant before they happen. Anakin can do this when pod-racing without any training at all.

I think you're replying to the wrong thing, or I don't understand what you're saying.

I'm talking about the line where Yoda tells Obi-Wan he's simply not powerful enough to fight Palpatine, but he might be able to take Anakin, and Obi-Wan agrees with this assessment.

This indicates to me that Obi-Wan is not at a high enough power level to be able to successfully fight Palpatine, and it substantiates the notion that Force-wielders have power levels in general, and that's how I see it, as in Aquaman's lower power level would make it impossible for him to beat Superman. There's no superlative in this sentence, and it's not divided in two.

I haven't seen it in a few years. I thought that scene came after they started disagreeing in ROTS, but these explanations still work:

Anakin may have sought Yoda's guidance simply because if he said the same thing to Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan would be able to figure out he's talking about Padme. Also, he may have figured out that Yoda is wiser over the 3 year period between films.

Of course he was wrong in ROTJ. If he kept being right about things, then he never would have lost.

Also, his only real error with the Rebel attack is that he had no knowledge of the Ewoks and, more specifically, that they knew of the back door to the Shield generator power plant, which doesn't appear on the map that Palpatine purposefully supplied to them. Without that occurring, the Empire would have annihilated the entire Rebel fleet since the shield would've remained operational.

However, if Palpatine's wrong in the situation we're arguing about then that would make him a total moron, and also a really crappy non-threatening bad guy.

He encouraged Anakin to tell the Jedi about him. He knows they're coming. Even if I'm the toughest guy on the planet, I would never be so stupid to believe that I can handle 4 trained MMA fighters, or even 4 regular people. There's too much of a likelihood that I'm going to lose. I'm hightailing it out of there in that type of scenario, and I'm not a super genius. The only way I would stay is if I'm absolutely certain of who is coming and absolutely certain that they are children compared to me, a situation in which I'm sure I'm going to win. That's also the only scenario where I would encourage my enemies to come to confront me.

1st, Mace doesn't allow Anakin to come along, so that makes Anakin think that the Jedi might not really intend to arrest him, but that maybe they intend kill him and take over, like Palpatine suggested, so what Anakin sees when he enters the room is important, and the 1st impression makes it appear that Palpatine is right.

2nd, it doesn't appear to Anakin that he's just arresting him. Palpatine is without a weapon, and Mace is charging towards him, and Palpatine knows that Anakin is biased to see things in his favor.

Also, that ruse doesn't work for Palpatine. It doesn't turn Anakin, but it sets the stage for what happens next with Palpatine pushing the Jedi are traitorous / Jedi are no different than Sith argument that he's already planted in Anakin's brain - which Mace ultimately proves true by attempting to kill Palpatine.

However, my chief point about this is that Anakin happens to walk in at just this precise time, just when Mace is marching towards (to kill? from Anakin's POV) an unarmed Palpatine, making his words "See, Anakin, I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over!" feel most believable to a susceptible Anakin. He doesn't enter when Palpatine's killing the Jedi, or battling Mace. Instead, he enters right after Palpatine has lost his weapon, fallen to the floor, with Mace moving towards him in a way that appears threatening. The 1st impression that Anakin would get upon seeing this is of one of helpless person about to be killed, and this just happens to occur just as Anakin is entering the room.

That's too much of coincidence to me. That seems pre-planned to me.

I don't think he was trying to hurt Mace, but just give the impression that he was trying too. I think he could've blasted that light saber out of his hand at any instant if he was blasting full power. He blasted the saber from Yoda's hand, and Yoda's midi count is 2nd only to Anakin's, and Yoda has reached his full potential. A higher power level! Also, Yoda is so powerful with the Force that he can block lightning with his hands, contain it in a ball, and explode it in Palpatine's face. Yoda can do this, but Mace cannot, again because he's at a lower power level. And it would've been really helpful for Mace if he could do this, because he wouldn't have died, but he can't do this because, in my view, he's not in Yoda's or Palpatine's league.

He'd care because it involves his death. Also, Muslims and Christians have many shared myths. Also, I believe that Palpatine has studied Jedi teachings. It seems to be off limits for Jedi to study Sith teachings, but not the opposite, and that would help Palpatine understand the Jedi more. Also, Anakin seems to fit the definition of the Chosen One -- no father, incredibly high midi count. That seems to be enough to convince Qui-Gon, and I'm sure Palpatine learned about that because he seems to know everything the Jedi are up to. Also, Anakin probably shared that info with him too, as he is an uncle figure to him. Considering Anakin apparently fits the bill and it predicts his death, I think it would be prudent for him to take it very seriously.

He's comparing 2 versions of the scene. The version he filmed 1st had Anakin in the room witness the whole thing, then Mace disarms Palpatine, and after that, Palpatine blasts Mace with lightning, which he blocks with his saber. The lightning doesn't fly back at Palpatine. It just scatters. It's a stalemate. Each makes his pitches to Anakin about why he should intervene of his behalf. Palpatine convinces him, and Anakin chops off Mace's hand. Then Palpatine kills him with lightning.

So, no, his lightning really could hold off Mace because that's what happened in the 1st version.

The pretending to lose his power and play weak refers to him not continuing to hold off Mace in a stalemate as he did before. The stalemate is the last thing that both versions share in common, so that's where the "this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak" kicks in.

So, in the new version, Palpatine does hold off Mace in a stalemate first. That lasts for about 10 secs.

Then, like Lucas says, he pretends to lose power, so the lightning arcs back, and Palpatine acts like it hurts him and can't go on (that's the pretending to be weak part, as it's really revealing his true appearance) so that Anakin will take pity on him, and after his ruse works and he disarms Mace, Palpatine stops pretending to be weak and returns to full power, blasting him full force.

 

You keep dancing around an issue, so let me raise it here again before I respond to your old points: If Palpatine's whole objective is that he needs to look weak and vulnerable to convince, Anakin why would he ever scream "No, no, you will die"? That is the exact opposite of what he is trying to convey, according to you. The guy blew up his 10 years of planning? Why?

And for what matter, why kill any of the Jedi Masters? That, again, does not make him look weak. It proves how vicious and malevolent he is. It directly demonstrates to Anakin what the problem is. He did it right in front of the door, too, so that Anakin would have to literally step over their bodies to enter. This is awful planning for someone who claims to have a brilliant master plan. If everything was so carefully choreographed, why have any of this?

 

What is wrong with him saying “No you will die!! To Mace??

Mace was trying to assassinate him with his lightsaber pointing at him. Palpatine has the right to kill him and his assassins. But that’s really just to change Mace from arrest to kill.

If he wanted to kill Mace…why did he wait for Anakin to enter instead of doing his lightning the moment he was “kicked”?? What happened to his speed and agility?? His vast telekinetic powers he was using against Yoda?? His full lightning that literally knocked out Yoda’s saber?? Nothing??? Lol

He just waited until Anakin showed up and then the Palpatine show has begun.

Anakin was there to arrest him…what do you think Palpatine should do?? Surrender to both of them??

If he doesn’t do his lightning then Mace would have never go for the kill. AND If he doesn’t go for the kill then Anakin would still be on the fence in trying to arrest him. Which is what Palpatine Does NOT want.

Remember him saying:
If the Jedi Destroy me any chance of saving her would be lost.

Well here it is coming to fruition.

 

Wocky, I don't even know who and what you're replying to anymore, you seem to be getting us mixed up (you're telling me that Anakin thinks Yoda is wiser than Obi Wan when I already said I think that line was a slight exaggeration, you also replied to a comment about Sidious's confidence in his own ability to defeat Mace by asking me about the Jedi Plot thing when it's mainly Sidious69 and to a lesser extent Nerdling talking about that one). In any case...

To goad Mace into trying to kill him.
With the Evil Jedi Plot version, this is important to make Mace look bad for still trying to kill Sidious even after Sidious appears to become weak and defenseless.
With my making Anakin desperate version, this is important to force Anakin to intervene now instead of letting Mace arrest Sidious and trying to pump info from Sidious later during trial period.

Sidious69's version: Doesn't matter, the Jedi attacked him, Sidious had to fight back in self defense and killed them in the process.
Nerdling's version: It's Anakin's emotional side that matters more, and Anakin doesn't actually see their dead bodies because they're in the small inner room while Mace and Sidious were currently in the outer large room. Here's a thread of the Spatial arrangement of Sidious's office.
My version: Doesn't really matter too much, his only hope for saving Padme is what's important.

Hmm, I actually never thought of it this way before, that Anakin might've suspected Mace just lied because Anakin walked in. Interesting...

 

Exactly!!

Wocky thinks all us Sidious look alike lol.

The naysayers keep saying they don’t want Anakin to be dumb.

But which VERSION of Anakin is truly dumb???

1) The Anakin who believes that his lifelong mentor knows how to cheat death and is just getting his character assassinated by the Jedi.

OR

2) The Anakin who believes Palpatine is the ULTIMATE LIAR manipulating the galaxy and is LYING TO EVERYONE and pure evil BUT yet is telling the truth about cheating death.

 

It goes against a plan to make him look vulnerable, which according to you all was the point of the whole duel.

Several more convincing lines:

"No, you will never win!"
"Stay back!"
"I won't let you take over"

Etc. Pretty much anything but announcing that he wants to murder someone. This does nothing to communicate to Anakin that he will need help or is vulnerable or is innocent at all. Which gets to the real point. The elaborate choreography was not really needed, because Sidious violently contradicts it (literally). If Anakin was already so deeply biased, then he didn't really need to be convinced. You can't have it both ways. If Anakin is somewhat neutral, someone evil screaming about killing someone (who had mentioned nothing about killing them) would have pushed them away, and Sidious choreographed things badly. If Anakin is biased to see Mace's presence as threatening (even though Mace is doing what he told Anakin he would), and see Palpatine's cartoonishly evil comments as reasonable, justified self-defense, and etc he was already deeply in the tank for Palpatine and didn't need a dumb staged fight to push him into being a Sith. Either way, what happened in that duel doesn't make sense.

What happened to all Vader's amazing telekinetic abilities that he had in the hallway of the Tantive IV? He was moving slowly and ponderously a few hours later when he started fighting Obi-wan on the Death Star. Was he trying to throw his fight against Obi-wan?

This isn't a video game. The kind of leaps you are making aren't logical. Because someone chooses to use a power at one point and not at another does not mean they were faking. The number of Force powers they use is not reflective of how powerful they are. Neither is how fast they swing their lightsaber. Nor, for that matter, can you equate someone's overall skill in the Force to their skill as a fighter. You need better evidence than "he fought completely differently in a different fight against a different opponent."

Anakin absolutely was not there to arrest him. That is the most glaring misread of anything I have seen about the Star Wars films anywhere on these forums. You might as well ask where Captain Picard is.

 

Why would he need those telekinetic powers on OLD OBI-Wan?? He was in control of that fight even saying Kenobi has gotten weak. Was he ever in trouble like getting disarmed pinned in the corner to warrant the use of his telekinetic power??

He’s not there to arrest him???? Oh yeah the moment Anakin came in…he chopped Mace’s head off!! Oh wait!! I meant the moment he came in he backstabbed Mace!! Oh wait nope. If Mace would have stuck to arresting him then Anakin would be on board.


“WHERE ANAKIN TURNS DOWN TO THIS MOMENT RIGHT HERE AND YOU CAN SEE NOW THAT it’s very clear that HE WANTS HIM TO GO ON TRIAL SO HE CAN PUMP HIM FOR INFORMATION ABOUT HOW TO GET THESE POWERS.”

~ George Lucas

It looks like it’s you who has misread the scene.

 

It was actually kinda fun trying to answer from 3 different versions, so I'll give it a try again. Sidious69 and Nerdling, feel free to correct me if I'm misrepresenting your perspectives!

Sidious69 version:
Anakin already knows that Sidious is evil because he already revealed that he's the Sith Lord. The point here is to show that the Jedi are ALSO evil. Recall Sidious said earlier, "The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power." So it doesn't matter if Sidious continues to show himself as evil, he just needs Mace to go for the kill, thus making Mace look ALSO evil. If BOTH are evil, then Anakin feels less moral pressure and is free do to what he needs to save Padme.

Nerdling version:
On its own that line doesn't look good in front of Anakin, but only for a brief moment. It makes Mace go for the kill to make Mace look very bad, then Sidious quickly switches to looking even weaker than before. Overall, the lasting emotional impact on Anakin is seeing an aggressive Mace over a severely weakened Sidious.

My version:
Vulnerable ≠ innocent. Sidious just needs to look like he's about to die, which forces Anakin to act now to save his only hoping of saving Padme. It doesn't matter what aggressive thing Sidious did before that that made Mace want to kill him in the first place.

 

Yes almost…but evil is such a strong word. Lol

He was saying GOOD is just a point of view.

But yeah he is saying the Sith and the Jedi are the same.

Anakin was saying BEFORE this was the Sith are selfish while the Jedi are selfless.

Flash Forward to this …..Mace was saying similar words to what Palpatine said about Dooku.

And that was the whole point.

Because that lightning was for Mace to change from arrest to kill.

If Palpatine said those words and then started begging ….Mace would still go back to arresting him and let the courts decide his fate.

Mace has to see that Palpatine has to be stopped no matter the cost.

What Mace didn’t know is what he’s been telling Anakin all this time.

Viceroy:
Your PLAN has gone as promised my Lord.

Again what plan???

The PLAN to frame the Jedi by KILLING them before Framing them ONLY to lose which then ended up FRAMING THEM???

Cmon you already MISREAD and thought that Anakin was not there to arrest him….which he obviously was. So how can Palpatine still get that ARRESTING Anakin to change his mind???

Ding Ding Ding…it’s this fake duel!!

If he truly wants ALL the arresting Jedi Dead….then have some loyal Clone Troopers around or just call ORDER 66 and let Anakin decide then and there (which was the plan you have in mind for Palpatine in the first place right??)

Look, If the whole Opera scene was just them talking about saving Padme and then this scene happened as is …then yeah ….I can definitely say….that Palpatine lost and then started to weasel his way out by coming up with the Jedi Plot from thin air.

But that’s not what happened in the Opera scene at all.

 

The hallway scene is Vader against a bunch of regular people. He can tear through them like nothing, but against Obi-Wan, his former mentor, the man who left him limbless on Mustafar, there is a elevated level of caution on Vader's part, even if he senses that Obi-Wan's powers are weak. Vader still remembers what happened on Mustafar when he felt he was vastly more powerful than Obi-Wan, so he's not taking an chances with Obi-Wan now.

Anakin stands by, conflicted as Mace blocks Palpatine's lightning.
Mace then says, "I'm going to end this. He's too dangerous to be left alive."
Anakin replies, "No, he must stand trial."

That sounds a lot like he was there to arrest Palpatine. Anakin doesn't react negatively until he feels the potential to save Padme slipping from his grasp

 

Agreed. I don't think Vader's telekinetic abilities are even that good. It's a convenient tool against weaker opponents (e.g. Han Solo, or Luke in ESB) that allows him to work from a distance, but his own lightsaber skills are more effective in a serious duel against peers (Obi Wan, ROTJ Luke).

That said, I do think the ANH duel seems a bit tame compared to the PT fights. I think that's because it was the first film made and Lucas hadn't thought of making the fights that dramatic yet. I don't think it's a major plot hole though, like you suggested it can be explained by Vader being extra cautious after what happened from his reckless behavior on Mustafar.

Sidious's duels with Mace and Yoda are in the same movie, so these two duels should be more strictly held to the same standard than when comparing PT to OT duels.

 

Well I can't remember when I last posted on those threads, but sure - I'd love to see you there.

y'see this is what I'm talking about, you're cranky, when was the last time you slept?

 

So to be clear, you guys are agreeing you might fight a little extra cautiously when facing a potentially powerful opponent whose capabilities you don't know? So, say for instance you are the head of the Jedi Council and you have to go arrest the Sith Lord that the Council has been searching for the entire war? Possibly? Okay then.

Allow me to do one other thing, since I am responding to about 3 or 4 of you at once. Yoda tells Obi-wan he's not powerful enough to face Sidious. Several of you have made that line a part of your arguments. But let's think through its implications.

1. How does Yoda have any idea how powerful Sidious is or isn't? He's never fought the guy, nor met someone whose fought him. So from this, we must understand that the senior ranks of Force users have some way to estimate the Sith Lord's power.
2. Obi-wan hasn't either. Yet, he agrees as if he knows what he's talking about. So this ability must be a bit more broadly spread among the Jedi Council.
3. Because Mace is more highly ranked than Obi-wan, it stands to reason he would also have this ability. This leaves us with only two possibilities:

A. Mace Windu rushed into battle idiotically, deliberately facing someone whom he knew completely outclassed him. He did this rather than just contacting Yoda and others who were strong enough to help, even though that would have been very easy to do, and the knowledge of Grievous's death wasn't public yet.
B. Mace Windu correctly judged that he was strong enough to make the fight against Sidious plausible to win, just like Yoda did.

Your theory isn't about Sidious being brilliant, clever, or even skilled. It's just a theory that requires other characters in the film to act idiotic and out of character. Which means it probably isn't true. You are wrong. Mace won the duel. On the other hand, Sidious's victory was not about being an unbeatable swordsman or having superpowers or whatever dumb thing. It was about a year's long plan of manipulation that warped Anakin's mind really far beyond recovery before the duel even started.

 

I would think that Mace would feel a little more rushed when his friends are dying in front of him, but maybe that's just me... Maybe the others can chat about this point more, since I wasn't the one emphasizing Mace's initial 4 to 1 advantage.


In regards to the second point:

The Jedi didn't know how powerful Sidious was. If they could sense his power then they would have known he was the Sith Lord the whole time. They figured that the guy who converted and trained Dooku would be more powerful than Dooku. They also know that this Dark Lord was able to cloud the Jedi's vision so much that they couldn't even sense him right from of them, nor the creation of the clone army. So they just know he is very powerful, but don't know the exact level. That's why both Mace and Anakin were convinced that Sidious was too weak to shoot more lightning, which we know was not true (I believe we all agree that Sidious was faking during this part right?).

By the time Yoda says his quote about Sidious being too powerful for Obi Wan, he has a little more info to work with. He knows that Sidious somehow took over, even though Mace and a few other Jedi Masters were on Coruscant at the time. In fact, Yoda already sensed something major happening back when he was on Kashyyyk (I can't remember the exact timing), though it's unclear what exactly he sensed. It is possible that Yoda figured/guessed that Sidious was able to defeat Mace and the other Jedi Masters together. So Yoda might have a slightly better idea of Sidious's power than Mace did going into the battle, but still no exact picture, which is why he thought it was worth a try to duel him.

After Yoda's duel with Sidious, that's when he finally found out just how powerful Sidious is. There is no use in trying again and hoping for better luck. No use in even trying a 2 vs 1 by teaming up with Obi Wan. The difference between Sidious and Yoda's power, though not a magnitude difference, was significant enough that the winner would be the same no matter how many times he tried.

Lol yeah it's a bit heavy for you. Take your time, I'll be a bit busy the next few days anyways.

 

Where on Earth are you getting that Mace believes Sidious was too weak? Anakin believed that.

I think the most likely assumption here would be that Mace and the others got mowed down by the thousands of Clone Troopers that descended on them, along with Anakin's betrayal. I don't know why he would assume a special show down between Palpatine and Mace. But think about that if he did. You're saying that based on the fact that Palpatine beat Mace Windu, Yoda knows that he's the only one powerful enough to stand a chance. That logic tells us that Mace was indeed extraordinarily powerful. It throws the "Obi-wan was literally as powerful as Windu" interpretation out the window. The film is telling us in lots of ways that Mace really was a very strong Jedi, and on par with Sidious. You are dismissing it because you require him to be an idiot, ineffectual, or most preferably both in order for your theory to work. But that doesn't mean it's not there.

 

What we have is Lucas writing and filming the turn one way and then changing his mind and having the turn be different and only about one thing, Padme.
But then not redoing every scene that dealt with Anakin or the turn, possibly figuring that this is "good enough." and not caring that events and actions might not make sense.

First, given a galaxy's worth of bounty hunters, only an Idiot would right away assume that Jango working for Dooku and also being the template for the clone army is just a coincidence.
But the Jedi have to be stupid in order for the plot to work.
Second, Lucas did say that RotS would deal with the Sifo-Dyas thing but then he had too much stuff that needed to happen in RotS so he skipped it.
Third, another plot point that is raised and then dropped in AotC is the deleted Kamino file.
We have a few scenes about that and Yoda and Obi-Wan conclude that the file was deleted. Obi-Wan needing a five year old to tell him this did not speak well of his intelligence. But again, stupid Jedi.
They also say that only a Jedi could have done this. But after this, the issue is more or less dropped.
The Jedi never find out who did this and they do not seem to make any effort in finding out. We are also not told who did this, Dooku is a likely suspect, and we have no idea why he did this.

So do you think that Palpatine planned for all the events that happened in AotC?
That the first attempt on Padme would fail, the second as well, the Jedi being able to chase down Zam, Jango being ordered to kill her with the dart. That Obi-Wan would know Dex and Dex would be able to ID the dart. That Jango would fail to kill Obi-Wan and instead be followed to Geonosis and there Obi-Wan would stumble upon Dooku and co and overhead what they are planning?

If a person thinks that he had this stupidly convoluted plan, then yes, I can see why the same person would have no issue with another stupidly convoluted plan in RotS.
I, however, do not think Palpatine planned for all the events in AotC.
He instead adapted his plans when events did not go as expected.
Same thing in RotS.
He likely planned that Anakin would turn if he was able to beat and kill Dooku.
If Anakin had lost or been killed in the outside battle, fine, one less enemy to deal with so stick with Dooku.
Then he spent some time about a stop-death spell and that the Jedi were not to be trusted.
Then he told Anakin who he was and asked that he use his knowledge to save Padme. Again likely with the goal that Anakin turn right there and then.
So that failed but he sees that he still has his claws in Anakin and the Padme-hook is still alluring. so he lets Anakin go. If the Jedi prove as stupid as they have been thus far, he figures they will do something rash and he can handle them. Then force the issue with Anakin, it is either the Jedi or Padme, and Anakin goes with Padme.
If Anakin does not turn, fine do Order 66 and then deal with the stragglers.

No they don't.

Anakin also says this;

These show very clearly that saving Padme is THE top priority for Anakin, the rest does not matter.
Anakin will do whatever he can to save Padme, no prize is too high.
But if the Jedi Plot is a crucial as you say, then Anakin WILL let Padme die as long as he does not believe in this.
That I do not think fits with the Anakin that is so singularly obsessed with saving her.

Also, in the film, when Anakin comes into Palpatine's office, he sees and hears Mace going with the arrest option, which Anakin is fine with. Palpatine tries again with the Jedi plot think but Anakin does not move.
If the Jedi plot was what would trigger Anakin, why did he do nothing here?
So Palpatine then has to force issue and get Mace good and mad so that he switches from arrest to kill.
Even during that bit, Palaptine still tries with the Jedi plot thing but Anakin still does not act. Even when he tosses Padme in there, Anakin remains passive.
He only acts when it looks like Palaptine will die and that means that Padme will also die.
Because then he no longer had the option of getting info from an arrested Palpatine.

Ok, it was in the Padme scene. But comments.
Is this a scene that is left from the original turn, where the Jedi Plot played more of a role?
Also, by this point, the "official" story is that the Jedi are traitors so Anakin could just be continuing with that narrative. Do you think Anakin would admit the truth and say "No, the Jedi are innocent and Palaptine is evil but I am working for him and been killing children because he promised to teach me a Stop-Death spell."
I do not have a high opinion on Anakin's intelligence but even I do not think he would be this stupid.

Because and I have said this several times, IF Anakin can get what he wants from an arrested Palpatine and so save Padme without having to betray the Jedi. Then he prefers that option.
That is why he tells Mace and that is why he is fully onboard with arresting Palpatine. This would be in some ways a coup and yet a coup that Anakin has no problem with. He knows that Palpatine is the enemy, that he will not give up his powers and would need to be overthrown and arrested.
The ONLY reason Anakin turns is that Palpatine created a situation where it looks that he will die and with him, the means to save Padme. And Anakin can not have that and so he acts.
There is no need for a Jedi Plot. All that is needed is to force Anakin to choose between the Jedi and saving Padme.

Tell me, who do you think has a better understanding of what Boot-Camp is like?
A person that has seen "Full Metal Jacket" a few times or a person that has gone through such training?

The audience sees a few hours while the characters in the film has years of knowledge.
So what they know is always more than the audience. The audience might know a few things that the characters do not but here, Anakin knows Palpatine is a Sith Lord. As he says "The Sith Lord we have been looking for." So the one behind all the problems of the past decades.

And yet Anakin pulled his ligtsabre on this "harmless old man" when he found out the truth and he said he wanted to kill him.
As I said above, Anakin knows that Palpatine is behind all that has been going wrong.
Anakin knows that Palaptine will not step down and will need to be arrested.
Also, Palpatine knew where the seps leaders were, how could that be if he was not working with them?

What UN-Jedi things did the Jedi do during the war that we see in the films?
They asked Anakin to spy on Palpatine but Anakin knows that was fully justified as Palpatine was a Sith Lord.

Nothing in the films suggest that Anakin thinks that Dooku and the Jedi are working with each other.
That would make no sense as Dooku had a lot of Jedi killed in the battle of Geonosis and would have killed the rest if Yoda had not shown up.
That the Sith work in pairs is known and again, at no point does Anakin doubt that.
So he knows that Palpatine is Dooku's master. So he also knows that Palpatine tossed his old apprentice aside so he knows that Palpatine has no loyalty.
So all the bad done by Maul, Dooku, Nute, the seps, Anakin can lay at Palpatine's feet.
Why do you think he got so angry when told the truth and came within an inch of killing Palpatine?

Yes because with Luke, the rule seemed to be that if you use the Force and kill in hate, then BOOM, you turn.
One then wonders how Anakin can murder in hate over and over again in the PT and not turn.

Other comments.

Some argue that at the end of TPM, Palpatine looked ten years into the future and saw ALL the events in exact detail and thus made his plans accordingly. Then he look a further three years into the future and saw ALL the events of RotS and made further plans based on that.
If Palpatine can foresee events years in advance and with this level of detail, he has God-like foresight.
And to me, this is bad for the story and the character.
Palpatine has such a massive advantage over everyone else that him winning is not impressive.
And he does not have to be that clever, he is just handed everything on a silver platter.
The story also gets less interesting with one character being totally unbeatable and his opponents never stood a chance.

I think that the story and the character of Palpatine is better served with him not having this amazing foresight, he has some but not this detailed. Instead his strength is being clever and being able to think on his feet. So he makes plans but also alters them based on what is happening.

Question, at the end of RotS, did Yoda and Obi-Wan make a detailed plan that accounted for ALL events in the OT? That Leia's ship would be overtaken outside Tatooine, the droids be given the plans, them to be sold to Owen, Luke chasing after R2 and all the stuff that happened until we have Luke getting zapped by Palpatine and this is what causes Vader to turn back and bring balance.
Did they have this detailed plan?
If they did, do you think the story would be better or worse for it?

But what RotJ also did was having Vader be able to sense Luke but Palpatine did not.
So that it showed that his foresight and sensing is not this absolute.

In closing and to all that are here, my view on why Anakin turned is simple.
Padme is the key. If he can get the means to save her and stay loyal to the Jedi, he prefers to do that.
But if he has to betray the Jedi in order to save Padme, then he will.
He does not have to think the Jedi are evil or in the wrong or anything.
Padme just matters more.
That would explain the tear on Mustafar, Anakin knows what he is doing is wrong but he thinks that this is the only way to save Padme. So he lies to himself about evil Jedi.

About the fight, I can accept that Palpatine was holding back a little, maybe he sensed that Anakin was on his way or he had foreseen it. So he stalls a bit and keeps dancing with Mace.
BUT the kick and him "loosing" the fight could be in part due to that. That in holding back and underestimating Mace, he gets hit for real. So that bit was not planned.

Lastly, this whole fight is not done very well in my opinion. If the goal was to make Palpatine look super great then I think they failed at that. Mace's goons just looked super weak and the fight between Mace and Palpatine is little better.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I think that the power of this scene hinges on the idea that had Anakin sided with Mace, Palpatine would have died and the Galaxy would have been saved.

I have seen the argument made repeatedly over the years that had Anakin not stepped in, Palpatine would have just killed them both with lightning and declared Order 66 anyway. For me that gets into that “Palpatine had a perfect plan for everything and can’t lose” frame of mind that [mention]Samuel Vimes [/mention] mentions, that for me is extremely uninteresting.

Palpatine, either intentionally or unintentionally, put himself in a compromising position that Anakin must save him from, and he’s confident that Anakin will do so. In this scene that wager that Palpatine makes on Anakin pays off. Whereas when that same overconfidence appears in RotJ, it gets him killed.

And just as Vader’s choice ended the Empire in RotJ, it was Anakin’s choice that gave birth to the Empire in RotS. But the power of that decision hinges on the counterfactual that had Anakin chose differently, Palpatine would have died.


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I have to agree, a really great and comprehensive look at things from @Samuel Vimes. As Tarados said, this really comes down to what the story is about for you, and what it all means. If you think that Star Wars is a 9-film saga about the omniscient and omnipotent Chancellor Palpatine who single-handedly dominates the Galaxy because he can never lose at anything then, yes, absolutely, it makes sense that he faked every second of the whole duel, which he also choreographed in advance. But if the Prequel is really a story about Anakin's choices and agency, then for any of them to be meaningful, Palpatine had to actually lose. Mace had to actually be able to beat him. Otherwise Anakin's presence is completely superfluous. You can choose for yourself which story is being told.

 

@lord_sidious_ ,

This was very interesting. I never could figure out exactly where things were located until I saw your breakdown, and now, I can't not unsee where things are! This is some really great work. Up there with the practical effects used in the PT thread.

It actually strengthens the Palpatine was faking it argument a little too. He confronts the Jedi in the far right office, then purposely leads Mace all the way to the office on the left, where Anakin will see him without seeing the dead Jedi. It's also the only other place with a large window that would allow Palpatine to be sure he can lose his weapon, instead of appearing disarmed with his saber lying there on the floor. Finally, he's placed himself in the perfect spot so that when Anakin enters the room his 1st impression is of Mace marching forward to possibly kill an unarmed Palpatine.

There are ways to explain it without Mace being an idiot.

The dark side was clouding every Jedi's power to use their ESP-like powers, while there was nothing the Jedi were doing to cloud Palpatine's similar powers, so for this reason, Mace didn't know that Palpatine outclassed him that much, but Palpatine could know Mace was clearly inferior at the same time. Obi-Wan assumed that he could possibly take Palpatine. They're both top Jedi. He assumed since he's really powerful he could take him. Also, he had 3 other very good Jedi to help him. Also, heroes often take on villains who are tougher than them, then find a way to win. That's a trope of movies. According to that trope, that doesn't make them idiots; it makes them heroic.

But I think your emphasis on the word "idiotically" really points to the heart of matter. I think I've explained why Mace isn't an idiot in this situation, but if you disagree then that means 1 of 2 things: either Palpatine is an idiot or Mace is an idiot.

I don't want Palpatine to be the idiot, so if that means that Mace has to be the hot-heated idiot, so be it. That's not my only reason for arguing that his apparent loss to Mace is part of Palpatine's plan (and again, I'm even open to the idea that he did actually lose the duel part not on accident; he just knew that Anakin would enter whenever he was disarmed and he could hold him off with his lightning.) However, one big reason is that I don't want the evil mastermind of the Saga to be an idiot, and I don't want Anakin's turning evil and the fall of the Republic to be based on dumb luck. In my view, that undermines Palpatine as a villain, and it lessens the sense of dramatic comeuppance when Vader kills him in ROTJ, and makes the Saga and the Chosen One prophecy less rich in the ways that I explained previously.

So, if comes to the point that where one has to be thrown under the bus as the hot-headed "idiot", it's always going to be Mace for me. I'm not sure that's the case, but if it is, that's what I choose, but if you want to throw Palpatine under bus. Fine with me.

Sometimes, works of art are simply open to more than one logically consistent interpretation. That may be the case here. That's probably why people have been disagreeing about this scene for so long, and I really have no problem with other people having different interpretations.

Also, if this is the case that one of them has to be "the idiot," I don't think this makes ROTS a poorly plotted film for the most part. Most films never receive a level of scrutiny close to this. Like I said, the Oceans 11 films, Skyfall, the Game, (oh, and both of JJ's Trek films make no sense), as well as a ton of other films would completely fall apart under far less scrutiny.


Edit: well, I just read your post, and it seems like you're somewhat saying the same thing that I am. More than one interpretation can explain what's going on, and but someone with one interpretation would be left dissatisfied if forced to accept that the the opposing interpretation is the truth.

And I actually find it interesting why for some people lessening Palpatine's puppet master qualities lessens the overall impact of the Saga while for others retaining his ability to manipulate events strengthens the Saga's overall effect.

 

There you go!!!! FINALLY!!!! Do you concur? @Jabba-wocky

Yes he can adapt. But you can tell which is his plans and which where he adapted.

He didn’t control everything BUT he does put things in motion.

There’s a reason why he suggested to the Jedi that Obi-Wan should guard Padme in AOTC ….He wasn’t just making small talks. His plans were to be a Chancellor with Emergency Powers and for the Senate and the Jedi to find out about Dooku forming an Army at the same time finding that out that the Republics has Clone Army ready for their use. Did he manipulate everything in between?? No but he does have great foresight that putting Obi-Wan in motion can lead to him telling Tyranus that “Everything is going as planned.”

In TPM, he was telling the audience that he wants Padme dead and he even told Maul to kill them all…that didn’t happen but it still lead to him being Chancellor. So that’s him….adapting.

When he told Padme that Valorum would be tied in red tape and she has to call A Vote Of No Confidence even though she said that Valorum is their biggest supporter. That’s Palpatine telling the audience what is going to happen before they happened.

In the TROS, his goal that he told Kylo is to destroy Rey….but then tells her …later ..nope…I just want you here and not want to kill her at all …and he wants her to kill him so she can have his power….but then he realizes Kylo and Her are the Dyad so he adapted his plans to absorbing them to restore himself instead.

So the movie shows which is his plans and which he can adapt to.

In ROTS, his plans were to become Emperor, Purge the whole Jedi Order and to convert the Jedi’s Chosen One. How??? By making the Jedi look bad and dangle the power to save Padme. Plain and simple.

You don’t plan to frame the Jedi and then decide not to frame them only to end up framing them again! We agree GL is a hack but he’s not that bad of a writer!! Lol

Yeah so??? That’s a natural reaction. And then Palpatine turned it around again saying BUT YOUR NOT SURE of their INTENTIONS are you??….which had Ani saying he will QUICKLY DISCOVER THE TRUTH to all of this.

Again…if it’s all about Padme….then none of that will matter….and just go with Palpatine right then and there…why even try to arrest him??

But yet there he is..still conflicted. So what’s Palpatine to do??

It’s now which version of Anakin do you think is dumber???

1) The Anakin who believes that his lifelong mentor knows how to cheat death while the lying Jedi is trying to undermine both of them.

OR

2) The Anakin who believes Palpatine is the ULTIMATE LIAR manipulating the galaxy and is LYING TO EVERYONE and pure evil BUT yet is telling the truth about cheating death.

Again ROTS took place before this….and for Palpatine to be OVERCONFIDENT in ROTJ….his foresight has to be at their peak in ROTS.

There’s a reason the Emperor is known for these memorable quotes.

“EVERYTHING that has transpired has been done so according to MY DESIGN.”

“It was I WHO ALLOWED the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator.”

“You don’t know the POWER of the Dark Side! I MUST OBEY MY MASTER.”

“Do not UNDERESTIMATE the POWERS of the Emperor, or suffer your father’s fate you will.”

Those quotes even fit this duel perfectly. Anakin did underestimate Palpatine when he was faking to be weak which lead Anakin to finally turn.

Two of the most powerful Force Users acknowledging the Emperor’s power.

There’s a reason why the power house Vader feared Palpatine in the OT.

So by ROTJ, his foresight has to “seem” absolute due to his success in ROTS for him to be so overconfident like that which lead to his downfall.

Of course not. Like with Palpatine, they had solid plans and plans they adapted to.

Their main plan is to hide and train Luke when he comes of age. They trust that the son of the Chosen One will fulfill the destiny in destroying the Dark Lord.

Yoda doesn’t even rely on seeing the future because it’s always in motion while Sidious use it so readily.

Yoda didn’t even want Luke to save his friends in Bespin. So that’s not planned.

With all their training of Luke….Luke didn’t even use them because Luke realizes at the end..to fight the Sith is to go in their level…to beat them is to not fight them at all and trust in the Force.

Again. This whole saga is about the Skywalker line and not about Mace, a glorified second tier character.

If the choice was Anakin’s then yes. But that’s not what’s the Mace fans are suggesting.

If Anakin didn’t fall for Palpatine’s scam and he didn’t block Mace…then Palpatine had to use his full power to destroy Mace…and then Anakin had to fight Sidious where The Chosen One finally fulfilled his destiny by beating the Dark Lord then yes that’s ANAKIN’s choice.

But if Anakin got stuck in traffic and Mace defeated Palpatine then The Chosen One means nothing …and it’s all about the Mace Windu show!! If only that darn Anakin didn’t intervene…Mace Windu will be the real Chosen One Da Bestest Jedi Evar!! No one wants to see that movie except for his fans.

There’s a reason Obi-Wan said.
“The Emperor knew as I did, IF ANAKIN WERE TO HAVE any OFFSPRINGS…they would be a THREAT TO HIM.”

He did NOT say….”The Emperor knew as I did…IF there were more Jedi out there…they would be a threat to him.”

It’s all about the Skywalker Line.

 

Yes, yes, yes, I don't get how more people don't see this!

Palpatine losing to Mace on purpose is perfectly in line, both thematically and his character, with Return of the Jedi when he purposely goaded Luke into redeeming Vader because he knew Vader would betray him and throw him down the shaft, which set the plan in motion for his eventual return in The Rise of Skywalker

It's all about Skywalkers! This is just part of Palpatine's master plan spanning the entire Skywalker saga!

 

I can't blame Anakin, though.

I'd kill mace and save Palpatine too. Palpatine is a much better character.