Andor Andor Episode 2.09 Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Interesting, never seemed to bother you when you commented dozens of times on literally every other Star Wars show related topic, practically telling people that they shouldn't be enjoying this, and now you're trying to tell me that even though I think it's a good show, I should be thinking it's flawless (when it's clearly not). Welp, I can't really force myself to suspend my disbelief when I see scenes that completely take me out of what's happening with how absurd they are.

What an amazing strawman argument.

I will actually admit that you have a point, if someone goes and shoots two people dead outside of the Capitol and see if the cops don't show up in nanoseconds. Right. That will never happen, because what happened outside the Senate on Coruscant could also never happen.

That's not true. These two people were not there for Andor. They were there for Mon Mothma. They didn't even know that Andor was going to be there, since he was Luthen's guy. One of those traitors was in Yavin's group, and the other one was a driver that happened to be an Imperial spy. In fact, if they did indeed know that Cassian Andor was going to to be there, that creates a far more massive plot hole, as then they would have raised the alarms and brought dozens of people to kill him, not just arrest him. It's the Empire. They didn't need to do anything discreet in order to capture or kill a traitor to the Empire. They would present it as a triumph of the authorities. Erskin even yelled that one of them was a Rebel spy, cause that's the people's sentiments were sympathetic towards the Empire, not the Rebels.

Fast? Nah I'm sorry, there was nothing fast or discreet about that. It's ok to think Andor is amazing as a show, but it's not bulletproof. And we agree that it's not unrealistic for Mon Mothma to get away, but the way it was executed and shown made it pretty unrealistic. Oh yeah her disguise.... the one that was worse than Kenobi disguising Leia in that other show that got so much scrutiny even though it was literally less than 30 seconds within 5 hours of great cinema? Right. Double standards I guess, but that was not unexpected.

 

To quote Kleya, “You’re becoming insufferable!” Not least as you certainly can defend that scene.

The plan was for the ISB to secretly, discretely, arrest Mothma as she was leaving the building. That plan is only shot (literally) near the exit when the ISB agent feels forced to arrest her at gunpoint when it’s clear a rebel agent is trying to get her out. Until then, the ISB is trying to make it look like Mothma simply leaves with a security detail. So they likely ordered all stormtroopers and other security personnel to do nothing to arouse suspicion that they were arresting a Senator.

In this case, the Empire is defeated by its own secrecy, and its current approach of maintaining a false narrative of upholding Republican traditions. They still don’t want the galactic public, and the Senate political leadership, to think they are a naked police state. They need to keep the “local systems in line” after all. And the Senate building is the place they’ll want to be particularly careful about in upholding that narrative.

As usual with this show, it makes perfect sense within the rules of the world they’ve built.

I mean, we’re not talking Kenobi and Leia in a coat in an Inquisitor fortress here. A far less plausible scenario (though one I think possible, given how invulnerable that place was probably considered) which I know you have little, if any, issue with. So it’s hard to take your admonition that “nobody can defend this scene” seriously. It reads like bait for those fans who laud the show’s interest in realism. Which won’t work as it’s a plausibly realistic scenario, given the political circumstances and the location.

 

Sounds more like you are looking for things to complain about, as per usual.

No, the area most definately shouldn't have "a million droids, a billion cops, and a trillion stormtroopers". That was literally the point. They were explicitly pointing out that there is little security in the senate to keep up the pretense. Look at the surprise of the senators an onlookers about stormtroopers in the senate when the Ghorman senator gets arrested. That is not a normal thing to see. The Empire tries it hardest to make the senate appear "free". They do not, under any circumstances, want to spook the people, so they have a hands off approach for this place. That's why the troops get called in to shut the place down once things went down. Up until the plot to capture Mon Mothma failed, they had no reason to make such a public display of power. And it needs to be said, that said plot didn't even plan on Mon Mothma giving a speech in the first place. They didn't anticipate that, because they had control of who could speak in the senate.

And no, the disguse was not remotely close to being as bad as the one from Kenobi. That was a secret military base on which the soldiers had exactly one job to do: not let anyone get away. Yet somehow they didn't notice someone hiding a child under a coat. In Andor, they merely switch out coats to make it a bit harder to recognize Mon Mothma from afar, and this is a crowded place mostly filled with civilians. This wasn't a cunning plan to get past someone, nor did they even have any close run-ins with soldiers.

 

The fact the difference needs to be explained is all that is really needed to know this is a pointless discussion.

 

They’re still maintaining the facade of Senate legitimacy at this point. And Mon Mothma hasn’t committed a violent act against the Empire here. She simply gave a speech. So Erskine yelling “she’s a rebel spy!” is not relevant. Yes, many see the rebels who’ve committed violent acts as terrorists at this point. But that doesn’t mean everyone is totally unsympathetic to free speech here, particularly free political speech. Especially as they’re in the Senate building, where likely most people who work or visit there still consider it a place where political speech is still protected, even if it’s already clearly being managed. It’s really a highly realistic and astute depiction of where the Empire is at this stage, before Tarkin and the Death Star rip off the democratic mask in A New Hope. Major kudos to the worldbuilding here. Not only are the events defensible, they are laudable in their realism.

 

Wtf are you talking about?
.
"For SW standards this is just Tuesday", meaning that the suspension of disbelief required for this scene is in line with the suspension of disbelief required by any random SW show or movie.

For example, in a typical SW story, the heroes sneak into the enemy base. And the audience sort of accepts that if they move quietly enough, they should be just fine. Of course, we could start pointing out that, realistically, absolutely none of those plans could ever be seriously implemented for hundreds of reasons.
Why don't they use cameras to monitor every corner in such a highly secure base? Why do doors just open when you shoot at the switch? Why do the enemies do not coordinate and they always find themselves unprepared etc etc.

It's a rather standard SW thing. The heroes often tend to get away despite all odds. That's all I meant.

 

Sorry man, but this can’t be treated as a serious comment. That scene in Kenobi takes place in an imperial military fortress, not a building dedicated to representative democracy. And I say that as someone who even believes in the Leia in a coat scenario given how impregnable the Inquisitor fortress is (and thus how unused to or unprepared for a breach they might be). Same with Scarif.

And accusing people of a double standard for their completely legitimate assessment that the Mothma and little Leia extractions are very different scenarios? Really? That chip on your shoulder regarding fans’ love of your least favorite Star Wars show, and criticism of your favorite Star Wars show, is becoming a ridiculously big one. Tone it down and stop accusing people of acting in bad faith when they’re simply expressing appreciation for a show that is obviously made with great care.

 

Thank you for the compliment I suppose, but what's really insufferable is refusing to even consider an opposite point of view

As I will mention later again, my issue is not really with them going discreetly to arrest Mon Mothma. I have no problem with that.

If you actually had read the majority (or even a fraction of my posts), you would have noticed that I have nothing but praise for literally every animated SW show except from Resistance, and for 5 out of the 7 live action shows. Next time, try to comment on the content and not the user. And try to get things right I guess.

This was unnecessary. I was not referring to Mon Mothma as the traitor to the Empire, but to Cassian Andor. He is the one who murdered two people in plain sight. The Empire didn't need to torture him or bring the scary droids out, they just needed to have at least a minimal level of security outside the Senate, which should have been expected honestly regardless of whether Cassian was there or not.

Didn't read anything below that sentence.

Whoa, lots of accusations there, unfounded ones too. I didn't really accuse anyone of acting in bad faith, nor do I have a chip on my shoulder towards everyone who enjoys the show. That's... absurd. People can love what they love, I have always said that. Also, Andor is not my least favorite SW show. In fact, as you know, I enjoy it. I also see flaws in it. I am hoping I am still permitted to actually have a different opinion, it almost feels like I am not.

Your tone and the usage of big words suggests that perhaps you think I shouldn't be allowed to respond to people who disagree with my assessment. There are literally dozens of posts that praise Andor, and I have no issue with any of them. When someone tries to mansplain things to me merely because my assessment of an episode is different than theirs, well I feel I have the right to respond.

 

Not at all. I doubt anyone here would assert you don’t have a right to your criticisms. That’s absurd. I was only referring to your accusation of a “double standard” from Andor fans. That was an unnecessary provocation.

 

Except neither did I say "Andor fans", nor did I mean that.

In fact I used passive voice, specifically so I don't label or target anyone. I said that the scene in Leia was scrutinized.
I definitely don't think that all "Andor fans" (whatever that might mean) have double standards.
I mean, you're an Andor fan and you know that I value your opinion highly.

 

Cops do not show up in nano-seconds anywhere but where they already are. That's how reality works. There is a response time in between when a crime is identified, when the cops are contacted and dispatched and when they arrive. The cops have already been dispatched to arrest them for unrelated reasons. If there were units nearby enough to intercept him in response to the murders, they wouldn't be waiting for him to shoot somebody to take action. There is nothing to suggest that the senate building, which is very large, is crawling with security forces at every turn on a normal day, regardless of whether the US capitol building may or may not be.

I thought this would be obvious but I didn't mean to imply they would arrest him because he's Andor, wanted Rebel agent. They would arrest him because he's helping Mon Mothma, their target, escape. So unless he was planning on ditching her and failing the mission, committing additional crimes isn't making the situation worse, they were already after him. Rather, shooting those people was making their situation better, because they were both specifically dispatched to intercept Mon and prevent her from leaving. They weren't going to just let him walk past if he was a good boy*, but they were going to let him walk past if they were dead.

*The driver might have, against his orders, but Cassian has no way of knowing that

 

We wholeheartedly disagree. I live in NYC, and I can assure you that cops show up immediately if there's a gunshot. I have seen it with my own eyes. Now take that and apply it to a universe where the cop droids (that we have seen in dozens of other instances in other media) have speeders and could probably be there in less than a minute, while Cassian is leaving ON FOOT from the scene of the crime, and you have what I personally consider completely unrealistic. You do not need security forces crawling everywhere for space cops to appear immediately. There are multiple The Clone Wars episodes, including a few Ahsoka arcs, where the droids show up for less.

Does the way that they showed this suspend your disbelief? Good, great for you, honestly. It doesn't mine.
And the notion that it should suspend my disbelief is just false. I am glad it worked for you, but it didn't work for me.

I don't disagree with Cassian killing those two people. He should, otherwise he would get caught, or killed, by one of them. All I am saying is that he should have been caught anyway. Especially after using his blaster to shoot these two people.

 

Oh yeh..I watch the arcs as one episode so my bad. The force healer basically told them the force was with him. So the force is with him in every episode tho Cassian just thinks he's lucky

 

Well, part of my point I’m trying to make is that the way policing works in NY is not exactly representative of the way policing works universally, so I’m not sure that’s the right standard to compare it with even if it’s the one you’re most familiar with. The other part is that there are clearly units deployed to the building, it’s just a really big building and there aren’t enough of them to instantly cover every exit and sweep every floor. They don’t have a tracking device, they have to hunt him down manually. And so they escape by taking a path that authorities aren’t present at. So if you accept that, shooting someone can’t get him arrested because there’s no one there to do the arresting, and if you don’t accept that then it’s not really the shooting someone part that’s the problem. The driver walked from wherever the vehicle was waiting to where he encountered Cassian. It clearly wasn’t too far away at the moment he pulled the trigger.

 

Also, the NYPD is not normally asked by the CIA to stand back to prevent the perception of a subversion of democracy. Not normally…

 

Amazing.... episodes 8 and 9 will be hard to to in the last 3. Some of the best SW content ever and two of the best TV episodes I've seen in quite some time.

Even though I knew Mon would escape they still did a great job building the tension during the escape.

 

It’s also just so beautifully shot.

 

There was a whole diversionary operation by Luthen and Kleya's people in progress, you had the ISB unable to jam Mon's speech transmission. It was about using chaos to your advantage, Cassian had to think on his feet and he decides to use a back way out at a time when the Imperials are still a few steps behind them.

You see the Stormtroopers racing one way and Cassian and Mon going the other. The ISB was also probably over confident after it had slipped a double agent in Bail's extraction team. The ISB might've had better tech but the Rebels had just as good tech to disrupt it, that's because the Rebels might be short of manpower and coordination, it isn't short of funds at this stage.

 

Couldn’t agree more with all of this. The safe words being ‘I have friends everywhere’ are front and centre because of all the things you’ve just said

 

I gave this episode a perfect 10/10.

It's episodes like this that give the show an edge above the others. There wasn't all that much action, but still so much going on that it kept you glued to the TV. The Ghorman senator is immediately arrested after the massacre; but they still had Mothma to go after and prevent from talking. The Bail character had a larger role in this episode; I still have to have someone give him a name drop because I just can't connect that actor with Bail. For a while I wasn't really understanding Luthen's plan to intercept Mothma before she went with Bail's crew to Yavin. The question was whether he just didn't trust Bail or, as it turned out, they knew that Bail's crew had a spy in it. Mon's speech was one of those special moments; reminds me of the President's speech in Independence Day. Cassian does escape with Mon, and he leaves them in safety on Coruscant to go back to Yavin alone. Bix leaves while he's sleeping; will we see her again? Will Cassian see her again? I guess we'll see next week. And lastly we see how K-2SO gets on board with Cassian for the first time.

It's funny, I was mistakenly thinking that this was the final episode, but only looked up after the credits rolled that next week will be the last 3.

 

The whole end game is the discovery of the death star

 

Well obviously that's the given.

 

Also, by this point, the Emperor is a well known recluse. No one has really "seen" him in years, just fake video footage and the like.

 

They also wanted to limit exposure on this whole thing. They set the senate meeting in the morning, so that fewer senators - and people in general - would be around. The presence of the Emperor wouldn't have been a good fit at all under such circumstances.

It also needs to be said, that this isn't supposed to be a big thing for the Empire. Yes, they need the resources, but that's the quiet part you don't say out loud. The public matter is not something on a level that requires the presence of the Emperor at all. For all the propaganda about the Ghormans, they really don't want to make this too big of a thing either, or else people would think there is significant resistance to be found in the Republic.

 

I gave this 10/10.

Another wow episode. I don't know how 10-12 can beat that.

Now I assumed this episode would be how the series ends with Mon's speech. That just made the most sense. That being said, the tension in this episode was intense. I mean even though we know how it ends...you're on the edge of your seat. That takes some doing and this show has excelled at that. When Cassian is taking her through that spiral staircase...OMG.

Also, even though we know what happens to Cassian and Mon we don't know what happens to Luthen and Keyla so you're still on the edge of your seat in that regard.

I felt bad for Cassian in regards to Bix, but she knew she'd be a hindrance to what he was destined to do. It's sad though that they were never able to reconnect so there is a sort of tragedy to the episode.