JCC Embrace The FU - Formerly the STAR WARS IS BAD thread

So I think I need to rewatch that one episode where Krennic has that secret meeting on how to tackle the whole Ghorman plot element. Why was the solution to create a conflict where the Empire was forced to take over? From what I understand, Ghorman has a mineral the Empire needs for the Death Star. I wonder why the secret meeting didn't discuss about hiring a private contractor and that 3rd party company could have worked with the Ghorman people to mine the mineral. It would have created jobs on Ghorman and then it would be a win/win for both the Ghorman people and the Empire.

It just felt like propaganda was already chosen as the way to go. I'm guessing the Empire (a) didn't want to pay for the mineral and (b) they didn't want people starting to ask questions about what this mineral was going to be used for so they went the subterfuge route. Am I assuming correctly?

At this point we don't know what the mineral is and if it's related to spiders, so I'm guessing it's probably kyber crystals under the planet's surface. Is that what others are assuming as well?

 

The mining would render the planet uninhabitable because so much of it would need to be extracted. That was the whole point of the meeting. If it were a normal mining operation that would not have been disruptive to normal life, they would have just done it.

 

I think the mining had to (or might need to) be so aggressive that they knew it would **** the planet

 

That's probably the detail I missed, thanks guys, that makes sense.

 

I don't see how they're gonna cover it up tho. Are they gonna kill everybody first? (we don't really see the rest of the population) Will there be a 'catastrophic event' causing everyone to leave so that they can get on with the serious mining ?

 

At this point, I assume they'll blame anything bad that happens (caused by the Empire) on the Ghorman Front/Rebellion.

 

In the meeting two shallow marketing strategists were proposing a more conventional campaign to present the Ghormans in a negative light.

Then, a bit more privately Krennic had an exchange with Dedra, in which he insisted for her opinion. She reluctantly responded that the usual propaganda would not get them very far, and they needed a rebel front to trigger a insurrection so that they could get the alibi they needed to proceed with the genocide.

 

They don't need to cover it up, they have the media all too eager to spin it their way.

 

They covered up the Death Star attack on Jedha, pretending it was something else.

But with Ghorman the Empire can simply say it was self defence against terrorists that attacked them & if the mining ruins the planet they can claim they going there to evacuate the people due to core instability that had been detected or whatever.
Easy to deny the mining equipment ever existed

 

Yes, and this is effectively at the core of Luthen's plan. In season 1, after Aldhani, Mothma tells him "people will suffer". Luthen's reply: "That's the plan."

I got caught up on episodes 7, 8, and 9 last night. Still so good. Episode 8 would have been a really depressing place to end a watch, but as nerve-wracking as parts of episode 9 were, it still enabled ending on a more upbeat / hopeful note. And I loved seeing

Spoiler

the "birth" of K-2SO.

 

It’s a testament to the show that I was on edge about Mothma giving the speech and then escaping with Andor. I know she gives that speech and they both survive, but I just chose to completely forget about that.

 

yeah, I don't think it .... whatever

 

I gotta say, I always new i wanted Star Wars x Les Miserables ... But I had no idea it would be that satisfying.

 

It's interesting trivia that the actress who plays Dedra also voices Yennefer in the Witcher video games.

 

If there is one critique I have about the show is that Mothma burning her bridges with Perrin and their daughter happened off screen.

I believe that there was potential in that subplot. Perhaps one could argue that Mothma's dance scene was already the top of the climax of her transformation and everything else is a corollary, though I did have the feeling that something was kind of left unresolved about this specific aspect.

 

I watched the new episodes a little late, having already seen some of the spoilers here about Dedra, and I came away sensing something different from her behavior.

Spoiler

It has been said here that she feels sorry for what happened to the point she'll commit suicide, or switch sides and go out a hero, or something similar. While this show is certainly good at giving us a multifaceted view of a character's conflicting moral opinions (Luthen, Syril, etc), I'm not convinced Dedra is feeling a lot of shame about the Ghorm.

Yes, she is staring out at the crowds a lot toward the end. And she stares out at that central plaza even before the crowds protest, when she first arrives. She stares at that plaza day and night (like literally, there's a scene of her just staring at it in the dark and then it cuts to something else). Why would she be doing that? Granted, there is chance it's because she's feeling bad about what will happen. But why... that plaza? I think there's a stronger argument that's she's considering the Tarkin Massacre, which was lauded as an effective show of force among the Imperials. I think she wants to do something similar. She's shown she's capable of it from Ferrix.

The fear she shows is only when she's physically assaulted. This is probably some Imperial Childcare trauma coming back. Bad Batch showed an example of how the Empire treats kids in their custody. The kids are tools.

I would be surprised, and even disappointed, if she doesn't have a showdown with Partagaz by the end. The guy seems supportive but has (in both seasons) taken most of the acccolaides for her ideas. I don't think she's happy with what happened on Ghorm because it got out of her control when the rest of ISB escalated the matter without her imput. She seemed more upset about the young Imps dying than the Ghorm. The Tarkin Massacre was efficient, but this massacre was a bloodbath for both sides.

tl;dr version: I think she's more of a Tarkin at heart, in terms of operating efficiently and taking total control.

 

She looks like she's headed for a breakdown, she'll probably end up living with Syril's mom, eating cereal in zombie-penance.

 

Is Bail’s “Tear the *** out of this place” line the first time that word has shown up in Star Wars?

 

No, Cassian said it earlier this season. I think when he was trying to fly the experimental TIE?

 

Supposedly the first **** happened back in Andor Season 1 Episode 12 when Linus Mosk said "****. We're under siege. They're everywhere."

Speaking of that episode, Maarva Andor's "**** the Empire!" is my head-canon.

 

I haven’t watched any of it yet, but I’m not opposed to it in the future.

 

Keep going. This is where the fun begins.

 

I think that Dedra’s fate doesn’t even matter that much.

The takeaway we should have is:
* if you feel disgusted, if it wasn’t your choice, but you still did it… it’s still evil
* the impact of your actions could haunt you in ways you didn’t think they would


It’s all about the philosophy of good and evil. I know at least in the Literature board, starting back when we talked about the NJO book series and somewhat the prequels, there’s been talk about how much good intentions matter at all in judging how evil someone was. Or what about when someone bad has a “broken clock” moment that has them do the right thing even when they didn’t actually change.

In my opinion, there are three factors.

But first, to define terms. Good, selfless love, compassion, empathy all mean the same thing. You wish good for the well-being of another. What is well-being? Their physical health/well-being, mental health/well-being, emotional health/well-being, social health/well-being, and what can be called their spiritual health/well-being (if not religious, the health of their feeling of their morality, meaning, purpose, fulfillment to be good too). So, to want to protect and improve the well-being (in ALL those spheres) of another is what it means to love, to be compassionate, etc. Notice also that it is all at the individual level.

There are three factors in what is good:
1. Goodwill: are your intentions for the well-being of all the individuals involved?
2. Good action: are the actions you take in the support (or at least non-harm) of the well-being of all individuals involved?
3. Good impact: is the result of those actions protecting/improving the well-being of all individuals involved?

Those are 3 factors for every single decision, and we make a lot of decisions.

It’s very hard in times of war for any action to be purely good.

You can be good-intentioned, but do something you know is horrible to the well-being of at least some individuals, and the impact could be good or it could misfire and come back to hurt you. Luthen killing Tay under the possibility of being vulnerable and financially blackmailed forever, and the impact being the safety of the rebellion (but also the distrust of Mon).

You can also have someone of good intentions, who does morally good things, but isn’t wise or is being misled, causing disaster. Poe Dameron at the start of TLJ comes to mind, when he wants to protect the alliance and is taking action to stop the dreadnought, but the result is the deaths of many of the Resistance despite achieving the objective. I guess you could also say Padme and Jar Jar in the Senate, having good intentions and good action (they’re not killing anyone, they’re giving their ally more tools to help the galaxy), but the way their actions were guided ended up having a terrible impact with Palpatine’s rise. Syril thinking of law and order for the safety of the public could be another example, trying to guide the resistance to only target those the empire is willing and ready to lose, with horrible impact on the safety of the public.

You can be ill-intentioned, but have a code of honor where you don’t actually act unethically. I’d say Thrawn could be an example of this. He obeys the “rules of warfare” and is always polite and considerate in personal interactions, but his overall motivation is that of an overbearing empire, because he thinks the impact will be good.

There’s no clear answer on where the line is. Is someone good if at least 51% of their decisions have: 100% good intention, 75% good action, and the end result is at least 51% good for the well-being of others? Does impact not matter at all, a noble warrior who refuses to compromise their ideals, but it leads to the defeat of their cause and the horrifying deaths of everyone they love? Does intention not matter at all, as long as they kept to their code of honor and the outcome ended working out even if it wasn’t their intended outcome? Does action not matter at all, you kill hundreds of civilians in an Imperial military base, but your intentions to stop an empire were good and the outcome ended up being good too?

It all gets muddled when dealing with war and what to do with tyranny.

But I think with Dedra it’s clear. She didn’t want to do Ghorman, she only wanted to hunt down rebels and find their mastermind. But she still did it, she still authorized the plan that was carried out, and the impact was horrifying. Even if she didn’t personally want to do any of it, and justified it to herself that someone else would have done it anyways… it’s very fair that others can call her a monster.

You can have a conscience, and still act like a monster. She didn’t follow her conscience.

But that’s what makes it interesting with Luthen.
Good will? He wants a free galaxy but he also intends to sacrifice others if it means getting there. He has a conscience and admits he’s going against it and losing his soul. So both good and bad intentions in most decisions.
Good action? He does many things to help others. He occasionally has had someone killed, even an ally like Tay, when they become a liability (or trying to kill Andor in Season 1). But more frequently than killing someone, he just sets up the Empire to do the outrageous thing, even though it’s technically the Empire acting and they could have chosen not to act in their predictable way. But it still seems like Luthen has some responsibility.
Good impact? We do know the empire will be defeated. The overall impact does turn out to be for the best. Palpatine is killed, and an idealist, not tainted from making decisions like he had to, becomes its first leader and helps shape it idealistically.
So does impact matter that much, in the moral equation, outweighing the mix in both intentions and actions?

 

Sorry to interrupt but I’m watching Empire Strikes Back on the back of an airplane seat for the first time and also for the first time without any sound as a completely silent movie.

this movie really looks good.
Abominable snowman is pretty much the only special edition enhancement that makes these movies better.
The actors are emoting and gesticulating in such an exaggerated manner in the first act that their acting style is actually better suited for a silent movie that the version with audible dialogue.
I still hate how Luke runs out of the cave into the night like a chump. He needed to put Mr Snowman out of his misery, make a nice fire from all the bones strewn about and then finish eating the tauntaun. The cave is a perfect arctic survival bunker.