Andor Andor Episode 2.12 (SERIES FINALE!!!) Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Maybe they could have done two more seasons instead of one, so we got six episodes about each year. Cut the original plan in half instead of a mere quarter. Sounds like a decent compromise though maybe Gilroy wasn't up for even that. Smits could have been available though if that third arc was pushed to Season 3.

 

Last episode was not that good since it only served to bridge episode 11 of Andor S2 and Rogue One really. It does fit very well there. (Watched some of RO after the episode to see how it fits. Biggest problem is changing Bail but it fits very well) but it lacked a bit of substance to be honest. Good thing that episodes 8,9,10 and 11 were so good. Would have liked to see more of K2 though, but he was cool as long as it lasted.

 

I actually think it was better as he played a harder edged Bail imo. Yes a little jarring in continuity but hey it's tiny brush strokes in a masterpiece art work

 

I loved Bratt in this. He's definitely got a tougher grime to him that worked well in this spy series. If he were any different he'd fit right in with the Empire. Whereas Jimmy Smitts seems more like a dad about things. He's softer. And that worked well in EP 3, and other places.

I'm totally fine viewing both as the character.

 

"And then remember this: the Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.* Remember that. And know this, the day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, these moments of defiance, will have flooded the banks of the Empire's authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. Remember this. Try."
―Karis Nemik's manifesto

* great book btw... currently watching Rogue One next ANH. Maybe I'll watch Andor seasons 1 & 2, Rogue One, and ANH someday... great work Tony Gilroy! Mon Mothma and Bail Organa spin-off series hopefully (also Saw Gerrera Star Wars story)

 

I also watched the start of Rogue One.

Now all the questions Cassian and the Rebel leaders are asking in the opening of the movie have much more weight and urgency. Everything they are doing is backed up by the cryptic info Kleya (and ultimately Luthen) gave them.

We see their point of view now. They are in the dark trying as fast as they can to find out what the weapon is, if it’s real or if it’s a trap.

When Cassian asks his source ‘Gaylon Eros?!?’ it has the effect of him seeing puzzle pieces come together. The big reveal is ‘planet killer’. That’s the moment Cassian - really the entire Rebellion - finds out the weapon is the Death Star.

Jyn’s interview by the Rebel leaders has more layers too. Half of the questions are to decide if this is real or not. For the audience their questions are now motivated concerns and fears. There is a new sense of panic. Also an earned skepticism that the answers are too easily falling into place to be real from the limited clues they have.

There are also echos of Luthen in the opening of the movie.

The flashbacks to Kleya and Luthen in this last trio of episodes connects in a way with the flashback opening of Rogue One with Jyn being left alone for Saw to rescue here.

Jyn’s mother gives her a piece of Kyber Crystal on a necklace which also links back to Luthen giving one to Cassian.

And the urgency Luthen felt at the end now carries over to the start of Rogue One. Luthen could barely speak fast enough passing on the info to Kleya. He was desperate to not be the only one to know this secret. He needed it passed on so it could not be silenced with him. And then Kleya is equally desperate to pass on the information. That energy, Luthen’s final actions, clearly carries into the start of Rogue One now.

 

The character is faced with different circumstances than he was in the movies written by different people, he doesn't have to literally transform into another human to believably act with a harder edge. While I accept the recast, Smits, being an actor, absolutely could have mastered the craft of "act different" and deliver the performance the script demanded had he been in the show. Bail Organa isn't the only character he's ever played, he could absolutely do "less nice, in the middle of a war, Bail Organa".

It's like if James Cameron suggested not bringing back Linda Hamilton for Terminator 2 because she acts drastically differently in it vs the first movie, as if the transformation wouldn't feel more impactful if it still felt like the same person. If anything, changing personality on top of appearance, voice and mannerisms make recasts harder to sell as the same character, it's probably one of the most awkward times to do a recast, like Jeff in Better Call Saul feeling like a different person because he was recast and had to act differently once he lost power over Jimmy.

Ultimately, while yes actors have some control on how a character comes off, including "edge" and "grime", they are usually trying to give the performance the creatives had in mind, so I don't like completely inflating Bail's slightly different personality with the recast, ignoring very important factors like, y'know, direction. It's assumptions like that which could have tanked the careers of all the actors in the prequels (and for some, it arguably did).

 

I'm not really saying that Organa is behaving any differently, as a character might, during this time period versus another. Just that the individual actors presence is different. Bratt is a bit gruffy. Harder-edged in appearance. That blends well with this particular show. Smitts presence worked well in EP 3, and in other places too. It doesn't necessarily mean Smitts couldn't have done the same here, but it would have been slightly diferent perhaps because he's just a different actor with his own presence.

 

She wasn't being picky about where to go, she had no intentions of going anywhere. She didn't call for an extraction, she called so that she could pass on the intel.

 

Luthen convincing Lonni to stay on back in S1 came in clutch

 

This. She wants to continue Luthen’s work on Coruscant and has to be convinced to leave it, and truly leave him behind. And she’s genuinely worried about being a prisoner on Yavin. Very, very realistic portrayal of what her character would do, based on what we learned about her in episode 10.

 

Honestly, for a series finale, this was a bit of an odd episode.

No question the shootout in the safe house was really well staged and executed, but it might have felt more appropriate to have all that occur in the prior episode rather than this one. However, doing so would mean a series finale with basically no action in it whatsoever.

The episode almost feels like a calm before the dual storms of Rogue One and A New Hope. Instead, most of this finale is about Cassian defending Luthen's reputation with the Rebel leadership and ultimately setting him up to go the Ring of Kafrene. Honestly, given how much this episode was supposed to link up to Rogue One, I admire that we didn't get a number of obligatory cameos (No Tarkin, Jyn or Galen Erso, Bodhi Rook etc), yet I also would have liked even more cohesion.

I really liked some of the internal sparring amongst the Rebel leadership and badly wish we could have seen more of it throughout the season. I feel like Saw Gerrera in particular drew the short stick in terms of his narrative relevance. It's also very interesting to see Bail Organa as the most abrasive leader of the bunch. And in terms of the entire final arc, I was really craving more Mon Mothma, even though her personal arc basically concluded with her Senate speech.

What relieved me the most was that not all of our crucial supporting characters had to die. At first I thought Kleya was a goner, but I'm so happy she made it out, and equally happy that Vel got some good focus here as well. The montage at the end was perhaps a little too Olympian for my taste (the "Harvest" montage hit much harder), but I certainly appreciated Cassian locking eyes with the Force healer. And yes, seeing Bix at the end with the baby was a bittersweet moment.

7/10

 

Yup. A great way to end it, for that reason. These are the people who lay the groundwork for Luke Skywalker. And here are some quiet moments for them before their sacrifice.

 

One hell of a Chekhov's Gun.

 

Saw's cameo draws relevance when you watch Rogue One... spies, rebel spies, and Imperial flags every where, the rebels needed Jyn to get to Saw because he was on his own radical mission...

 

alas, poor Lonni. A tool even in death to Luthen.

 

I wonder if the emperor was in a rush to publically blow up Alderaan and dissolve the senate simply because a leak of this magnitude would’ve caused widespread revolt. His hand was essentially forced and the long term plan for fascist state was sped up

 

Everything you say makes sense, so I'll just give a personal perspective on the matter:

1- Understandable point.

2- I think Dedra is slipping. She has been obsessed with Axis for years and years, dreamt of this moment... and she clearly sees herself as the heroine here. She doesn´t see Ghorman as chaos, at all; all she is thinking is that Ghorman was going to happen anyway, and she was the one chosen to make it happen. When she says to Syril that they will return as heroes, she really means it, because it's true "from her point of view". Her world is that ISB building, and nothing else. Her career, her rivals, her assets, her goals; that´s her life, and people like Luthen are just a question mark in her portfolio that needs to be answered. Since this took so long, she feels she deserves not only to enjoy the moment, but the glory that comes with it (Heert was right about her after all).

3- Kleya, I think, is the other side of the same coin. Her life was that console, that room in the back of the gallery. Just like Dedra, she has made her life out of coordinating assets, sometimes sacrificing them, and working towards a greater cause she sees very little proof of being achieved. Once Luthen, said console, and said purpose are gone, she is left with her conscience and the way Luthen and her treated people like Lonnie. I felt that she didn´t want to go to Yavin because she truly fears the judgment from others, from herself... and she truly doesn´t know how to live her life now. She almost giving up felt very well written to me.

Despite their obvious differences, I think both Dedra and Kleya are a warning about letting your world and your perspectives become narrower and narrower, until you can only see things from your own point of view. A fantastic approach to a phenomenon that is a great risk to all of us in today´s society.

 

I agree that the finale was surprisingly quiet and calm for a finale, but I still really liked it.

One small moment I loved was seeing Mon Mothma--who we're used to seeing being surrounded by luxury and dressed in extravagant clothes, scrubbed down and sitting among the Rebels in the Yavin mess hall. I loved the juxtaposition of that. And you know she's at peace with her choices.

(Seriously, I love Mon Mothma so much now)

 

@3sm1r i agree with your first point.
I was hoping we would see how Dedra found Luthen.
Maybe we will eventually get a book telling that story.

 

Didn't she say they'd tracked his Fondor Haulcraft for sometime?

 

Help me out here folks: 1 BBY.

Yet everything that occurs in this arc is directly before Rogue One and A New Hope, aka 0 BBY.

What am I missing here?

 

There is no 0 BBY. 1 BBY -> Battle of Yavin -> 1 ABY

So we could be at like "December 15th 1 BBY" in the final arc or something like that.

 

Everything in the 12 months before the Battle of Yavin is 1BBY, everything in the following 12 months of the Battle of Yavin is 1ABY. The Battle of Yavin is 0 point in time.

I think...

 

Well said indeed, I also thought of this when reading the Mask of Fear which is set right after ROTS 19BBY, seeing her there amongst the rebels ( maybe thinking of her past life barely listening to Vel... how times have changed for her) reminded me of ROTJ as well.