ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

This isn’t really a subjective like or not issue. Those in the production that say they intended it, which is more of an objective fact. Unless you think they’re all lying, which some here do.

Me accepting Reylo as existing has nothing to do with my subjective taste on it as a form of art.

Its about accepting the reality than that TLJ’s fans did in fact see it, liked it, and it was intentional by the director. I accept reality, even retroactively that Reylo does exist in the movies, in order to discuss and criticize that execution, even if I still find it revolting and poorly done on a subjective level personally.

Same goes for Finn was FS issue. It seems as though it was intentional (objective) although perhaps poorly done (subjective).

 

Can we simply accept director commentary or stated intentions as the "real" interpretation of a film? If we applied that logic consistently, we'd have to accept every claim by filmmakers as definitive, which would invalidate decades of audience interpretation and critical analysis. The finished film is its own text that communicates independently from creator commentary, and belongs as much to the audience's reading as to the filmmaker's stated intent.

Take Lucas's claim that he always intended Han to be viewed more like John Wayne (a heroic western archetype) which is why he changed the cantina scene to have Greedo shoot first. However, the film clearly presents Han as morally ambiguous - more like Clint Eastwood's "Man with No Name" than a white-hat hero like Luke or Obi-Wan. That moral ambiguity is what makes Han's return at the Death Star so satisfying - it's a genuine character transformation. Audiences understood this character arc for decades before Lucas tried to reframe it.

Similarly, while production members may discuss their intentions regarding Finn's Force sensitivity, TFA as released focuses its Force narrative on Rey, regardless of what was discussed in production meetings. Audiences watching the film without access to behind-the-scenes commentary would naturally interpret what's presented on screen. Once a film is released, it speaks for itself, and external statements about intent don't override what's actually shown to viewers.

I understand your distinction between acknowledging something exists versus personally liking it. But I think we might be conflating "existing in the film" with "being the correct interpretation."

When you say you accept Reylo "exists in the movies" as objective reality, I'd argue that what exists are scenes and interactions that some viewers interpret as romantic while others don't. The romantic reading isn't inherently more "real" than your original non-romantic reading - they're both valid interpretations of the same footage.

Director intent is just one factor, not the definitive truth. Death of the author applies here - once art is released, viewer interpretation matters as much as creator intent. What Rian Johnson intended and what viewers actually see can be different things, and neither is more "objectively real."

You're absolutely right that we can discuss and critique different interpretations without personally embracing them. But framing one interpretation as "reality" that must be "accepted" suggests other readings are somehow less valid. Your initial viewing where you didn't see Reylo wasn't wrong - it was your authentic experience of the film.

That said, if you choose to let others' readings influence your perception, that's valid too. We often gain new insights by considering different perspectives. The key is that this should be a choice, not an obligation to accept one interpretation as "objective reality." Multiple interpretations can coexist without establishing one as the truth we all must acknowledge.

 

Finn keeps it real!

 

If Rey had not been captured. Finn would not have joined the resistance. That’s not TLJ propaganda or a diss on Finn’s good character. It’s extremely admirable that he was willing to risk his chance at freedom for Rey because she had been kind to him, but I do not believe he was motivated by a commitment to fight in their war when he’d just minutes before believed the only option was to run to the edge of the galaxy. He was admirable enough to want to destroy Starkiller base, but once he believes they’re all going to die fleeing from the first order fleet it makes sense he’d prioritize Rey.

I don’t think it’s a matter of Finn not being supportive of the resistance, you’re right that he is on the path to committing to them. I’m sure he’d join back up with them if he had escaped to save Rey and the resistance survived.

 

I mean, the reality is, it's all rather opaque and disconnected... be that TFA, TLJ or TROS. I think TFA does have Finn more invested in Rey than the 'resistance'... and I believe that's one of the fundamental issues with the setup of TFA and its characters. Finn should have been established much more as an emotionally robust, if somewhat alienated/detached First Order deserter. He should have been all about breaking his overlords and freeing his brothers/sisters, rather than some comic foil fawning after Rey.

The idea of Finn is much more interesting than the reality... and that's no reflection on John Boyega... but quality of writing aside (which is extremely poor IMO), it's the *tone* that is crucial here... and TFA would have benefited (if nothing else) of having a tone closer to Rogue One. Finn, as a character, should have been more like Andor... a seasoned, hardened survivor who learns that he must fight back... TFA is a million miles away from that... which is why the defected stormtrooper idea never really works, as it's an interesting idea... but one that doesn't have any depth to it and is never explored (substantially and for dramatic effect). It's why Finn, as a character, ultimately doesn't work... because Abrams, Kasdan and Johnson are not invested in him, and he ultimately becomes tertiary, his part perfunctory and ultimately redundant.

The ST should have really been about a stormtrooper (or some soldier in the army of the villains) who leads a revolt/insurrection, frees his comrades and becomes a Jedi. That would have been a good and interesting story to tell... That *could* have been Finn's story...

 

Let's look at what the film actually shows:

When Finn returns after witnessing Hosnian Prime's destruction, his exact dialogue is: "It was the Republic. The First Order, they've done it. Where's Rey?" His immediate pivot to asking about Rey suggests his primary concern remains personal, not ideological conversion to the Resistance cause.

You claim his "only there for Rey" comment refers just to Starkiller Base, and this this moment comes late in the film. This isn't ambiguous - he's directly telling us he's NOT really there specifically/primarily for the Resistance. He's not against them, but he clearly states his singular motivation is Rey. The implication is obvious: if Rey wasn't in danger, would Finn even be with the Resistance, or on this mission? His own words suggest perhaps not....at bare minimum, this casts doubt and leaves this open for interpretation. No?

What evidence do you have that Finn prioritizes the Resistance mission over Rey and his safety? His entire deception about knowing how to lower the shields is motivated by saving Rey, not helping the Resistance. He lies to get onto Starkiller Base for her, not for their cause.

Your Han comparison actually undermines your point. In ESB, Han isn't there for the Rebellion - he's literally leaving at the beginning. He saves Leia out of personal loyalty, not ideological commitment. He doesn't join the Battle of Hoth or try to help other rebels. This perfectly parallels Finn's personal rather than ideological motivations.

And deflecting to Rey's actions in TLJ is completely irrelevant to discussing Finn's arc in TFA as far as I can tell. It's just whataboutism that avoids addressing the actual evidence about Finn's character development. Maybe I am misunderstanding the point/connection?

The film consistently shows Finn's actions driven by personal connections (escaping for survival, returning for Rey) rather than commitment to the Resistance's ideology. That's not "TLJ propaganda" - it's literally what TFA depicts on screen. And the sharper tone and all the ******* cursing doesn't make your argument stronger - it just makes discussion harder. I am not sure why you are being more hostile, I hope I haven't offended you....

 

If you take Rey out the math here, Finn's character concept of a defected trooper who joins the Resistance and MIGHT have the Force (not the actualization of that concept), and as you just better described and conceived is a classic protagonist's storyline. It's far more interesting than Rey's Mystery Box story. It's almost nuts that they even tried this, and only backs up the idea that Finn was a co-protagonist on paper.

Finn should have been far more serious in nature. He should have been highly trained in combat, to the point where even though he has defected, and no longer wants to fight, his training and impulses are almost ... involuntary or automatic. He should be fighting this part of himself as well. Then, add in the other stuff. Perhaps he has nightmares and PTSD (in a SW sense) about his programming. Perhaps he now has to face fears and anger that were programmed to be turned off. He sees former comrades in his dreams, although they were never allowed to have friends. So making friends in the Resistance is a barrier for him. Outside of Rey and Poe, perhaps feels isolated. And then slowly he discovers that what allowed him to defect is something grander. The Force. He uses this to free his fellow troopers from bondage. The troopers rise up against their programmers.

This is why it's such a let down. TFA is all about potential. Something amazing was close and yet so far away. You can see just fragments and atomic elements of that story in TFA. But as said many times before, JJ wasn't invested in actually making his concepts real in the story. And RJ had different plans and concerns altogether.

 

I find your Hanalysis a bit dubious. There's a large gap of time between ANH and ESB. He's been with the Rebellion for quite a long time. I'm not basing this off expanded universe material, it just seems like the clear implication of the film. And he's not leaving because he doesn't care, he's leaving because he has a price on his head that he knows he can't hide from forever.

 

Ummm. Han isn't ditching the Rebellion because he doesn't care about them. Or doesn't want to fight the cause. He's leaving because he has a bounty on his head that he wants to take care about. He literally says so to the commanding officer. Hell, the fact that he tells his commanding officer that he's leaving is a sign of respect for them.

Old Han (pre ANH) may have just not cared about his debts and killed bounty hunters as they came for him. As we see him when introduced.

But now that Han has friends, Luke and Leia, but also with the Rebellion, whom he cares about and also respect him ... things have changed for him. He's maturing. Growing more responsible. Paying off old debts so that gangsters don't continue to chase him down and possibly hurt those he cares about.

Its just amazing to me how people could misconstrue the OT, or even criticize it all in the name defending the ST.

 

1. Hanalysis. Massive props for that. New band name ripe for the picking.

2. You're right that Han was with the Rebellion for awhile (years?) between ANH and ESB, yet he never officially joined. He stayed out of personal loyalty, not necessarily ideological commitment. This is what the entire, "You could use a good kiss" talk with Leia on Hoth is about. He ain't in it for the cause...he's there for her and Luke. Even after years with them, he's still ready to leave when personal matters arise. Why does he go back at the Battle of Hoth? Not to join the fight....to save Leia.

This parallels Finn. He's with the Resistance for mere days (not years like Han) and explicitly states he's there for Rey. And yes, Finn gets Poe's jacket, but that's a personal gesture of friendship, not necessarily even an institutional recognition like Han's medal. More importantly, Finn ends up in a coma with a near-death experience for his effort. Who knows what this does to his "willingness to join."

Importantly, TFA film literally never resolves his status with the Resistance. There was no narrative obligation for TLJ to open with Finn as a committed member, just as ESB didn't assume Han's ideological conversion despite years of involvement. If anything, Finn's unresolved status gave TLJ freedom to take his character in any direction in this regard.

 

What a cynical take on the OT.

Han Solo is in the Rebellion. Its official. Its years ANH, and he's stationed on Hoth with his friends, and the rest of the Rebellion. His official rank is Captain. He later becomes a General. He's in it for more than just gold. There's nothing wrong that his reasons are his FRIENDS. Not just Luke and Leia. But the rest of them too.

He leaves to pay off an old debt because he's becoming more responsible. Not because he disagrees with the cause or doesn't care about it outside of his love of Leia/Luke.

My goodness. There are actual people who watch the OT and think Han is still selfish after ANH.

 

@DarkGingerJedi

I never said Han is as selfish after ANH - you're misconstruing my argument in an obvious strawman with a dash of feigned pearl clutching. There's nothing "cynical" about recognizing that Han's commitment to the Rebellion is primarily personal rather than ideological. That's exactly what you're describing, and personal loyalty can be just as valuable as ideological commitment.

You claim Han is "officially" in the Rebellion, but he doesn't actually join officially until ROTJ when he becomes General Solo. In ESB, he's still operating in that grey area - stationed at Hoth but not formally part of the command structure. You even said yourself that his reasons are his "FRIENDS" - exactly my point! Having friends in an organization isn't the same as ideological commitment to its cause. When the Battle of Hoth happens, where is Han fighting for the cause? He's not - the Falcon could have helped against those AT-ATs, but Han isn't in the battle. He's preparing to depart...he goes back to save Leia.

The dialogue between Han and Leia proves my point perfectly. When Leia says "we need you," Han immediately questions "We?" and presses her about personal feelings. He explicitly challenges her attempt to frame it as Rebellion needs, saying "You want me to stay because of the way you feel about me." Even Leia tries to deflect with "You're a great help to us. You're a natural leader..." but Han cuts through it: "No! That's not it."

This exchange shows Han understands the difference between staying for the cause versus staying for personal reasons - and he's calling out that both he and Leia know it's really about personal connections, not joining the cause.

This is the parallel with Finn. Both are with their respective groups for personal reasons (Han for friends like Leia/Luke, Finn for Rey) rather than ideological commitment. Neither officially joins immediately - Han takes until ROTJ, and Finn's status is never resolved in TFA. There's nothing cynical about recognizing this distinction - it's understanding that characters can contribute to causes for personal reasons rather than abstract ones.

You're actually defending my exact point while thinking you're attacking it. Both Han and Finn show that personal connections drive their involvement more than abstract causes - and both films acknowledge this distinction.

 

@jaimestarr I feel like your reading of Han post-ANH and Finn post-TFA are both, like...not impossible, but they're certainly not how I interpreted either of them. I guess your reading seems uncharitable, for lack of a better word (I know they're just fictional characters). I don't buy either of these characters not being members of the Rebellionsistance at the end of their first movies.

Having friends in a cause and being committed to it are not mutually exclusive. Now, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if in the day-to-day heat of battle, Han cared more about Leia, Luke and other individual rebels he knows than the cause itself...but that's pretty normal for soldiers in general.

Han realizing he needs to leave to take care of his personal business doesn't mean he isn't invested in the Rebellion. In fact, he delayed taking care of it an awfully long time, indicating the Rebellion is actually a priority for him.

If Han didn't actually join the Rebellion until ROTJ, how did he become a general so fast?? To me, him being a general in that movie supports the idea that he was a "real" member.

This scene is about Han trying to get Leia to confess her feelings for him. It doesn't mean that Han doesn't actually care about the Rebellion. Like I said, they're not actually mutually exclusive. Han is just trying to draw Leia's attention to the personal part.

I feel like the level of intensity of Han's ideological belief in the rebellion or the official nature of his position in it are almost moot...it's clear from this very same dialogue that he has been a major contributor, even taking a leadership role! Seems pretty committed to me. He's a rebel in every meaningful sense - a leader/captain, even.

BTW, I don't believe at all that Leia's words here were dishonest or incorrect. Even if she also wants Han to stay for personal reasons she doesn't want to say, that doesn't mean the more practical reasons she does give are untrue or invalid.

In short, "He has friends in the army and has to do something about the price on his head" does not equal "He wasn't a real rebel."

-
Anyway, to guide this back to Finn...

I think the broader point about Finn's portrayal in TLJ is just how it just feels disrespectful, like it's constantly trying to take him look foolish. Let's say I concede that Han was in a similar position to Finn, i.e. not actually a rebel...the contrast in how the two are framed is staggering. Leia tries to get him to stay, but he doesn't get tazed and treated like a cowardly joke the way Finn is. This continues throughout the entire movie: Finn is basically a screw-up who needs to be schooled about the way the galaxy works, up until his last big moment where it turns out he was basically a big doofus for trying to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance. Oh and don't forget, apparently he was only a janitor when he was with the First Order.

Han definitely still looked cool in ESB. Finn is very deliberately and clearly supposed to look uncool in TLJ. I don't think this is debatable.

 

You've raised some thoughtful points, but I don't think my reading is "uncharitable" - it's based on what the films actually show (and don't show) us.

On Han's status:

Where's the evidence Han is officially in the Rebellion at the end of ANH? Getting a medal doesn't make him an enlisted member. In fact, Han's absence from early possible sequel material like Splinter of a Mind's Eye further indicates his status was intentionally left open-ended.

In ESB, there's actual counter-evidence. Han is addressed as "Captain Solo" - not a Rebellion rank, but his title as captain of the Millennium Falcon. Compare that to "Commander Skywalker" - an official Rebellion military rank. If Han were officially enlisted, he'd have a comparable military designation. No?

I never claimed friendship and commitment are mutually exclusive - just that Han's primary motivation was personal rather than ideological. The fact that he needs to inform officers he's leaving suggests he has responsibilities but not formal ties - volunteers can leave, enlisted soldiers cannot without desertion charges.

Luke had personal priorities too (training with Yoda) but didn't leave the Rebellion to pursue them - further evidence these were different relationships with the organization.

As for Han's quick promotion to General in ROTJ - Luke also rose quickly to Commander after helping destroy the Death Star. Merit promotions happen, especially in desperate times, and don't require long prior enlistment. The joyous reaction to Han's formal commission in ROTJ makes much more sense if this was indeed a new development, not a mere promotion.

The Han/Leia scene absolutely addresses his commitment - his challenge to her "we need you" directly confronts the question of ideological vs. personal reasons for staying.

On Finn:

My points about Finn are even stronger - TFA ends with him unconscious after explicitly (even at the climax of TFA) stating he was only there for Rey. There's absolutely no resolution to his status with the Resistance.

Regarding your concerns about Finn's portrayal - I'm not arguing Finn is cooler or better than Han. Harrison Ford is one of the most charismatic actors of all time who made even the silliest Star Wars elements feel grounded. Much of what you criticize about Finn was already set up in TFA, including the janitor background.

My argument isn't about character quality, but about their narrative positions. Both characters end their first films with ambiguous organizational affiliations driven primarily by personal connections rather than ideology. That's not a criticism of either character - it's an observation about their arcs that gives subsequent films freedom in developing their relationships to the larger cause.

 

Thanks for your reply. I don't want to argue about Han's status in the Rebellion any longer, especially since, again, him being formally a part of it is not really what I'm concerned about. I do think his exact relationship with the Rebellion in ESB is a bit vague and you've made some good points in support of the idea he may not have been an "official member" (but his contribution still seems very substantial, to the extent that it's hard for me to believe he's indifferent to the cause). I think you've thought through your opinion even if I have my disagreements.

Well that is what I'm arguing...in TLJ. I'm not even saying in comparison to Han, he doesn't look cool even when not compared with one of the coolest characters in fiction. I'm just making the comparison because it shows that TLJ does not respect one of its supposed main characters the way ESB does. By and large, I don't think Finn looks cool in TLJ or is really respected as a character at all. It seems like the narrative thrust is all about tearing him down, mocking him, showing him as foolish.

Yes, cool is kind of a vague word. I guess if I had to describe it more specifically, I guess I'd say...looking impressive and like you have something major and special to offer, and also having aesthetic and superficial appeal. It should be noted that you can be cool and still be a bit of a screw-up - Han Solo is a great example of this, actually. He keeps getting into blunders, but then finds his way out of them (the Falcon's hyperdrive not working and him flying into the asteroid field is a great example), or at least tries to in a cool way (shooting at Vader when he sees him, even though it has no chance of working). Han is definitely not the image of success in ESB, but it's OK because even when he fails, he manages to be cool in some way.

Yes, I do appreciate Finn defeating Captain Phasma and his "rebel scum" line, but Phasma's lack of prominence makes it a little underwhelming as one of his only "cool moments". For the most part, Finn's storyline in TLJ is not very enjoyable and doesn't give him a chance to shine - to look impressive, smart, or cool in general. The fact that him and Rose get screwed over by a parking ticket certainly doesn't help.

 

Fair enough. Don't get me wrong...I don't think Han is indifferent. The cause is tied to his friends...but I think Han's loyalty is with Leia and Luke first and foremost.

I think "cool" is indeed subjective and difficult to define. Harrison Ford brings an inherent charisma to Han that's hard for any character to match.

Yup. Comparing Finn to Han in terms of "cool" is hard to do. I mean, Han is OFTEN the butt of jokes and made to look foolish....but HF is so charismatic that it doesn't diminish him. I think what is fair is to compare Finn in TFA to TLJ.

In TFA, Finn has numerous comedic moments: gasping for water on Jakku, getting dragged by Rey through Niima Outpost, the "Sanitation!" reveal, awkward flirting with Rey, being caught by the tentacle monster, the "droid, please!" line, getting knocked down by BB-8 multiple times, his exaggerated reactions during the TIE fighter escape, and repeatedly lying about being with the Resistance only to be exposed. But he also has heroic moments: defying First Order conditioning, freeing Poe, and standing up to Kylo Ren with a lightsaber despite being outmatched.

Similarly, TLJ gives him embarrassing moments like the IV leak gag, getting stunned by Rose, being caught due to a parking violation, and his initial desire to run away again. But he also has strong moments: infiltrating Snoke's flagship, defeating Captain Phasma with the "rebel scum" line, demonstrating valuable First Order knowledge, and his willingness to sacrifice himself.

I'd argue the Phasma confrontation in TLJ is actually Finn's most badass moment in either film - he directly confronts his past and claims his new identity. While she's not prominent, she's positioned similarly to Boba Fett - a visually striking antagonist who represents Finn's past.

The key difference may be that TFA's heroic moments have more plot impact, while TLJ's Canto Bight mission might feel less consequential to the overall plot. But that's more about plot structure than respect for the character.

So while I understand your frustration with aspects of his portrayal, I don't see TLJ as fundamentally disrespectful to Finn compared to how TFA established him. Both films give him a mix of heroic moments and comic relief in fairly similar proportions. No?

 

I hear you, but not sure I completely agree.

The First Order stormtroopers aren't coded as analogues to American slavery - they're explicitly modeled after fascist/Nazi forces, with the kidnapping of children for indoctrination paralleling historical child soldier recruitment and fascist youth programs.

Similarly, what Rose explains to Finn isn't about basic exploitation or slavery - it's specifically about war profiteering and the military-industrial complex. This is a complex economic system that wouldn't be obvious to someone in the isolated environment of the First Order, where indoctrination would focus on loyalty and combat, propaganda, false history not economic awareness and the truths of the Empire's previous evil.

Finn's experience was with direct oppression as a stormtrooper - not with understanding the financial systems that profit from conflicts from behind the scenes. Rose, coming from a mining colony exploited by these same systems, has a different perspective she's sharing.

I agree that Finn's character could have been handled better in many ways, but I see this particular moment as characters with different backgrounds sharing their unique knowledge, rather than disrespect toward Finn specifically. The scene shows Rose offering her perspective while Finn contributes his First Order knowledge throughout other parts of their mission.

 

Jesus. have to defend even that.

It doesn't matter who the boss is. Having a black character, who was a state sanctioned slave soldier since childhood and managed to break free of that servitude, is scolded for not knowing or caring that slavery is bad.

Take a L on this one.

 

One sometimes wonders what is actually being defended here… especially as some of these elements are so reflective of institutional bias and prejudices. Yes, at best, some of these creative choices are “tone deaf”… so let’s not get sucked into trying to defend that tone deafness…

 

I'll sit this one out, but theres a line where not everything can be or has to be defended.