ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Again, every comedic moment in these films has context.

In the case of TLJ, Finn just woke up from a coma in a medical bay, during an attack, it makes sense that he is in a daze and out of it. That's the context. If you think the drinking out of an animal trough is funny, but the med bay scene not...that's legit, people have different funny bones. Humor is based on personal taste.

Yet, the med bay scene is not inherently more "disrespectful" than the drinking trough scene. In fact, there's a good case to be made that it's quite a bit less given the optics.

1. Back to the Future 3 (used as justification/example) is largely a comedy as well. BTTF is Sci-Fi/Comedy (and has historically been categorized as such).

2. Star Wars has ALWAYS had heavy doses comedy infused into it. To say Star Wars is mostly action and drama seems not quite true.

This seems HIGHLY speculative. I mean, I am not against this idea...but is there, you know, any way of knowing for sure. As has been stated, it's my understanding that TLJ was largely written before TFA ever came out. Again, I might be off on this...

 

Well I'm not the biggest fan of TFA, as I'm sure you know, but I wasn't aware there was so much improv and changes post shooting? But saying that, not having a single ST spanning story locked down *before* they start on TFA, let alone TLJ, is (IMO) a recipe for disaster. This isn't to say things can't change and be adapted during the process, but man this was a weird model to create 3 connected Star Wars films.

I suspect they (Lucasfilm/Johnson) started with the notion that, like TESB, the main character (Rey) should be off on a quest to find the lost Jedi Master? But if that were the case, it would have made more sense (and probably would have added more value to the film), to have Finn and Poe on some other adventure 'together'. Someone probably said, "no I think it needs to be more of a love story like Han and Leia", and thus the Finn/Rose dynamic was hastily pulled together... not that I have anything against the 'idea' of Finn and Rose per se... but I don't think the chemistry was there, it wasn't written well (IMO) and the little side adventure they were on was just plain dull...

 

True. But then he already was going for that romance with Rey and Kylo. So it probably became a 'well what do I do with these other chess pieces?".

He obviously didn't want them together. Not enough conflict or drama for some reason. He couldn't even be bothered to realize that they are inherently not the same character, so he's already over looking who they really are, or might be (even if TFA failed them in the writing department too)

Which is why Finn and Poe's separate missions are actually largely pointless. Finn had already joined the fight in TFA. And Poe ... geez...he already respected Leia/Authority in TFA and wasn't some hotshot flyboy who needed a lesson on that. RJ has mentioned that OI is very charming, and although that's certainly a compliment, i wonder if that had more to do with, again, sticking it to them for making him take on a character he care not about.

Finn and Poe had to be included. But RJ really only cared about Kylo.

 

I actually agree with this and have criticized the film for it.

It certainly seems that way. Doubly so when you recall that he didn't even try to make an excuse for not writing an adventure for Finn and Poe, instead admitting that he simply didn't feel like it.

It's not that I find it funny. I just don't have much of a problem with it because it's more of a realistic action in the context of what's going on at the time. The reason I have a problem with the bubble suit scene is it's intentionally there to make fun of Finn and comes on the heels of criticisms towards too many jokes at Finn’s expense in TFA. Also it being the alternative to RJ's idea to keep Finn in a coma throughout the film as a joke. On top of that all the other moments of Finn getting tased and generally made to be knocked down and made the butt of jokes and idea to have Finn put on a suit backwards as a joke makes it worse. It's like he had it out for Finn and looked at him as nothing more than comedic relief.

 

I hear you. I just don't think TLJ should be held more culpable/responsible for "subjecting" Finn to humorous situations when TFA literally did this over and over again.

In TFA, Finn was constantly the butt of jokes...not just him drinking from an animal trough. All of these could be accused of intentionally being there to make fun of Finn too. Finn provides comic relief through out the ST. This didn't just kick into high gear with TLJ. It's there early on in TFA.

As for behind-the-scenes rumors about RJ wanting to keep Finn in a coma - I'm skeptical about judging a film based on ideas that didn't make it to screen rather than what we actually got. Is there merit to this, or is it a joke/rumor?

Also, this is still something that partially could be layed at the feet of TFA. Taking Finn out for the rest of the movie before the climax? Truncating his arc? Meh. TFA did him dirty in my eyes.

If one wants to critique both movies...fine. If one prefers one moment of humor over another...fine. I just don't see some vast chasm of difference between the two in regards to Finn and the comedic relief aspect of his character. Both films established a similar pattern rather than TLJ suddenly changing his characterization.

 

It’s true to say that the entire ST undermined Finn as a character, and Boyega’s role in the films. There’s certainly a case for arguing that he has a more perfunctory role in TLJ than TFA, and I think that’s true enough, but yes… each film did him a disservice. It’s just a shame because, on paper, he’s by far the most interesting character and the one that had the most potential (IMO).

 

Even humor should be part of the story, or a 'natural' result of the story in some way.

Drinking water out of a trough after walking thru the desert is a part of the story. It doesn't just happen on its own.

While bumbling out of a coma into a hallway is a 'natural' part of the story, wearing a leaking full body suit is not. The whole scene could have been the same without the water leaking gag and still be funny because being dissociated is the funny part. The leaking water makes him seem like a baby who's wet his diaper.

One of these remains comical but not demeaning because its part of the story, that is being funny, while the other is unnecessary and just thrown in for an extra gag, or to make the character look extra foolish or demeaning in some way.

Finn isn't the butt of jokes in TFA. For the most part, he's actually making the jokes, in much the same way Han Solo is comical in ANH with his dialog and charismatic acting. While in TLJ, the joke is mostly ON him. From leaking water to getting tased/shocked unconscious in every damn scene its certainly a different kind of 'humor'.

 

There's plenty to criticize in Finn's portrayal in both TFA and TLJ, but I do think there's a difference between the two. I think maybe the biggest distinction is just the main "thrust" of the movies. In TFA, despite him ending the movie in a coma, it still feels like the story of him coming into his own, going from a stormtrooper to a defector to having friends to being willing to fight for them.

Even if you accept that he needed to go through some development to become a "real" Resistance member, it's hard to argue that it's not a smaller journey compared to the first movie, considering that at the end of it, he was already fighting the First Order and thus practically on the side of the Resistance. In fact, the whole comparison to Han Solo confuses me because Han didn't have to go through an arc like Finn's where he gets disrespectfully talked down to and lectured in order to be "truly committed".

Add on top of that the mere fact that Finn's story simply wasn't fun or enjoyable to many people and his romance with Rose felt forced and chemistry-free, and it just doesn't seem like there's much going for Finn in TLJ. It's not just about demeaning gags, it's about the overall feeling and point of the story.

 

We have to remember that originally, or some where, in some other filmed start, Finn was on the bombers in bomber gear and a different hair cut where he was supposed to be with Paige, right?

We have a BHS picture of him in it.


He didn't seem to wake up from a coma, but was already past that. When did RJ realize that Finn ended TFA in a coma and his movie takes place seconds later and they'd have to match. When was the leaking bubble suit written and added?

This would have been much cooler for Finn as a character. And clearly here, he's already in the Resistance. So what was his story then if not to be guilted into joining by Rose? Was the entire Finn storyline changed?

 

Or crazy crazy half-baked theory time.

What if Finn starts off in the bombers, with Paige, already in the Resistance. He sees her death, and it jolts him just like seeing the death of his fallen comrade in TFA, and then meets her sister. He has his side quest with Rose, where they have this big conflict because he was there when sis died and she's upset with him. And maybe along the way, Finn discovers he has the force. More of those steps are taken. He tries to leave to get back to Rey. Rose compels him to stay because they/she needs him for the fight.

Then massive rewrite. Finn is shifted into background so that Kylo can shine. He's back in the coma, made the but of jokes, and has a pointless side quest. We know that quite a bit was cut or rapidly changed from the Canto Bight shoot. Was this potentially Finn Force material?

And this is where the major issue for JB lies with RJ and TLJ. That his force journey was scrapped mid-stream. Completely gutted.

 

Canto Bight was the biggest disappointment for me. Such a great location, and a great set, and it ended up being a totally half-baked sequence, visually and narratively.

 

All of the real world locations were beautiful areas, And they all ended up looking like cg artificial puke.

 

Honestly? Around the same time that scene I was referring to in my other posts was cut.

 

I was going to add that. There's also a quote that I don't remember where I saw it, but that the TLJ crew was surprised by the fact that some characters had turned out more popular than they thought.

I'm sure if you put Boyega and Isaac together at Canto Bight, as ridiculous as that plotline is, that is all anyone would have remembered from TLJ, because they have chemistry. Like I still want Hamill and Ford to have a movie together, I'd love to see Boyega and Isaac in one too.

I will also note that I well remember being in Chicago and seeing a big sign at the Disney store about TLJ before it opened and it was Rey, Poe and Kylo's faces. No Finn.

I am so glad that KMT is off to a pretty good career to spite RJ for that nonsense.

 

I still have the TFA Monopoly where they didn't even deem Rey worthy enough to warrant her own piece/token...

 

The 'baby who's wet his diaper' interpretation is pure projection on your part - that says more about how you're reading the scene than what's actually there. Comedy is subjective, and your distinction between 'natural' versus 'thrown in' humor is entirely arbitrary.

Meanwhile, TFA has plenty of humor genuinely at Finn's expense that you're conveniently overlooking. Again, the TFA 'sanitation' reveal undermines his entire stormtrooper background for a cheap laugh and is just as egregious as anything in TLJ.

This selective interpretation where every TFA moment gets charitable reading while every TLJ moment gets the worst possible take reveals you've already decided your conclusion. Both films have issues with Finn's comedy, but the difference isn't nearly as stark as you're claiming.

TLJ is continuing what TFA started rather than creating something entirely new. That continuation doesn't necessarily mean Finn was treated disrespectfully, just that his growth feels more incremental as a middle chapter.

The Han comparison is interesting because Han routinely got talked down to and lectured by Leia throughout the entire OT. The difference might just be that Leia feels more naturally suited to that role than Rose does, and I'll admit Rose is the weaker element in Finn's storyline.

Honestly, I think Finn got some of the most genuinely fun sequences in TLJ - the Phasma showdown, the fathier chase and escape, that Mission Impossible-style infiltration. Those felt like classic Star Wars adventure beats to me.

I don't disagree that he's more peripheral, but I think that was somewhat inevitable after TFA's setup. Once the film revealed Finn wasn't going to fill the "Skywalker" role - especially when he gets sidelined during the climactic lightsaber duel - he was always going to have a reduced focus once the story shifted toward Luke and Rey. The structural constraints were already there.

So while there are definitely execution issues, particularly with Rose not being as compelling a narrative partner as Leia was for Han, the fundamental the tone isn't vastly different from TFA.

I honestly agree with most of this. Yet this actually supports what I'm saying: TFA leaves Finn in a coma. TFA made him "not the Skywalker/Force user/main Jedi." TFA made Finn comic relief. If these are treating Finn disrespectfully, I can see that argument. But I disagree that this started with TLJ, or that it was somehow the duty of TLJ to "do better" by completely reversing TFA's choices.

Once TFA established its ending - Finn unconscious, Rey as the Force user, the story moving toward Luke - TLJ was working within those constraints. Johnson picked up exactly where Abrams left off, literally seconds later.

Again, the treatment of Finn in TFA and TLJ is not the chasm some people claim it is. Both films have their issues with his character, but the tone remain fairly consistent.

Yup. This is the REAL crime of TLJ. Finn and Rose are so stale compared to Finn and Poe.

 

I'm honestly too tired to address every point right now but once again, I am taken aback by your uninhibited assertion that this is the real crime of the film when it is one of the symptoms of the larger problem. They were always going to split the two. Always. After all, Poe was his comrade in the Resistance and the first person to call him by an actual name. They cannot give gravity to those things by having the two establish a thorough dynamic because that would require trusting Finn's concept enough to grow organically. Which they don't. I get that you feel TFA is not being criticized enough for basically "defanging" him conceptually (I obviously agree with a lot of the ways it does that you bring up, I've referred to them myself in the past) but there was objectively nothing inevitable about TLJ's handling of him when they seemed to outright pull back on him having even been part of the Resistance from the start or even being the sort of character to call out the FO's leadership like in the cut Phasma scene. These were all choices during the production and therefore, they can be criticized. They did have a negative effect on the film.

These decisions had unfortunately irreversible consequences that Trevorrow obviously tried to address in the Duel of the Fates script but he was then canned. TROS is a product of TLJ's continued poor treatment of the character. Just because a prior film does something does not mean that the subsequent film cannot address and improve on those things. Your entire point is sadly rather misguided in my opinion, to be quite honest. No amount of equating Finn to Han actually fixes this because it actively guts the character of meaning.

 

@Talos of Atmora

Regarding the Rose dynamic - I stand by that assessment, though I recognize it's my personal view and I'm sure plenty of folks think she and Finn work great together. But for me, chemistry matters enormously in films. Having Finn being "taught" by a brand new, unestablished character fundamentally changes how his agency feels compared to if that had been Poe, who already had an established mentor relationship with him. It's not that I dislike Rose, but the chemistry wasn't right for me, and Finn comes off as lesser for it. Imagine that entire storyline with Poe as the big brother figure - it would completely change the dynamic and how Finn's agency is perceived.

Looking at your other points, I'd ask what exactly was Finn's established concept coming out of TFA? The serious stormtrooper-turned-good angle was already undermined by the janitor joke, which reduced his insider knowledge to a punchline. TFA didn't build up that concept enough to make any particular continuation feel inevitable. Consider: A cynical pov (which I am not sure I share) is that TFA kinda/sorta made Finn second fiddle to Rey almost immediately. Yet, one that I cannot deny is that TFA put a big exclamation point on that idea of Finn as 2nd fiddle by taking him off the board during the climax and giving all the narrative juice/mojo to Rey. This didn't happen to Han in ANH. This didn't happen to Obi-Wan in TPM. It happened to Finn (co-lead) in TFA.

Bottom Line: I don't see TLJ as necessarily undoing or going against anything TFA established, nor treating him tonally different in terms of humor, etc. If someone thinks a leaky bacta bag is more disrespectful (or story driven) than sharing a trough with an animal...that's up to them.

Curiosity: Do you think if that deleted Phasma scene had stayed in, you'd view his arc more favorably?

 

What's crazy about that is Rose's initial infatuation with Finn, based on his supposed place in the Resistance, is actually similar to Rey's in TFA. Yet they still managed to somehow make Finn look worse from Rose's perspective than Rey’s even though he was actually lying to Rey.

What's crazy is, if that was the idea, it actually backfired and hurt the ST more. The movie in which he was "on a villain's journey" was the most profitable. Then they decide to bend the narrative in TLJ in order to rush a redemption story for him. They randomly created force-skype so he can have "intimate" moments with Rey. They completely ignore the Knights of Ren just so he and Rey can tag-team fight against some one-off cannon fodder. Then had him kill Snoke to save Rey, instead of continuing to develop Snoke into a big bad that can help keep him on the dark side.

 

@jaimestarr, a large percentage of your arguments are just pointing out that this thing someone dislikes in a Star Wars movie is similar to something that appeared in a Star Wars movie they like. But the details do matter. The implication, or sometimes something you outright state, is that the only reason people like one thing but not the other is due to unfair bias, but people keep pointing out, over and over again, how the comparison isn't perfect. But you still go back to this argumentation style constantly and are pretty dismissive of the differences people point out in the situations you compare.

It's irritating to me how you keep talking about the validity of multiple interpretations, and yet you call others' analysis arbitrary, even when it's clearly explained. The difference might not matter to you, but that doesn't mean it's nonexistent.

There's a world of difference between Leia and Han's back-and-forth banter, where Han is a mixture of screwing up and actually being skilled and successful, and the interactions between Rose and Finn in TLJ, where it's basically just a simple manner of Finn being wrong and not knowledgeable and not understanding and needing to be schooled.

Completely reversing?? No one is asking for that! Exaggerations like this are irritating. He may have been used for comic relief at times and not taken as seriously as I would've liked in TFA, but that doesn't mean TLJ choosing to be more respectful towards him would be story-breaking or something. (Especially since you are exaggerating Finn being poorly treated in TFA. You may dismiss the differences people have explained between his treatment in TFA and TLJ, but they have been explained and put out there. I don't feel like re-stating them.)

Also, why are you bringing up that in TFA Finn was "not the Skywalker/Force user/main Jedi"? That has nothing to do with him being well-utilized or respected as a character!

The only reason I think comparing Finn and Han is legitimate or useful (since they are very different characters) is because they're both major male heroes, and one gets much poorer treatment than the other. I'm not saying Finn was on track to become as beloved as Han (which would be an insanely lofty goal) and that TLJ derailed that all. But it certainly didn't use him well in a secondary role, like Han was used in ESB.