Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

I'll concede the mongrels point (although if slurs aimed at majorities are more acceptable than slurs aimed at minorities is another issue).

But I maintain my contention that Traviss is hypocritical for decrying Jedi genetic superiority while glorifying protagonists who explicitly believe they are genetically superior.

 

I am not sure the clones can be considered "genetically superior" in the same way the Jedi were. The Jedi got basically super powers because they had special germs in their blood. Whereas the clones just had their strength, speed, etc. enhanced. It's like comparing Captain America to Thor–despite Thor's special powers, would you really say you wanted to go up against Thor one-on-one any more than you'd want to go up against Captain America? Now I'll concede that CA might not be the best example since you might say he had "super" strength and speed. But the point remains, because Jedi aren't demi-gods, either.

 

So something like a total of two outside of Traviss books? Though you don't have to be a Clone to get that treatment in a SW army, just ask the Imperials, anyone serving with the Sith or for that matter a lot of the Republic armed forces in various periods.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WriterOnBoard

Edit: Bloody Hell, she is even given as an example...

How very mature of him.

Actually no, they get the stare and ignored.

No because they spent a rather long time learning how to use them, they are not born with it. No more then the Clones are born with their skills, but like the Jedi they train in it.

 

Ideal response of clones should be: "You talkin' to me? Well, I'm the only one here. Who the **** do you think you're talking to?"

 

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Well, no one said it was mature. I just found it funny.

True, but different people react differently. Some people would ignore the offender, some would make a witty comeback, some would insult them just as harshly, and some would just pop them in the nose.

Okay, point made. Still, they are born with it, they just have to be trained how to use it. Same with the clones, but they're different things they're born with; nothing the clones were born with could be compared to what the Jedi were born with. Ever.

 

So it's not just non-clone officers that clones hate that are referred to as "mongrels".

It's been a while since I read the books, and I couldn't quickly find the quote about the clone's belief in their own superiority for context. But my point is that it's about mindset as much as anything.

The Germans weren't genetically superior, but their belief that they were caused heaps of trouble. Whether the Jedi believe they're superior varies from character to character. More powerful? Certainly. But that's not the only measure of superiority.

 

That it is a rather harsh case of authorial intrusion/agenda.

In terms of what? Force Powers come with their own fun package of "suck". Though if we want to get into "screwed over by society" when it comes to the Clone Wars imaging the Outer Rim guy who gets conscripted into his planetary militia because they have a local coup backed by the Separatists. So he gets to face the same machines of death that the Jedi and Clone Troopers also get to face, but he gets third rate equipment, has no genetic optimization, no force powers and has no training from birth and if it really sucks, he gets left behind on his steeped in civil war homeworld, whilst the Jedi and Clone Troopers get shuttled out and get some R&R back on Coruscant.

 

"While the Jedi may have won the genetic lottery, the clones had it rigged in their favor."
Can't remember where I first came across that quote (thought it was in the YodaKenobi review of Revelation, but I can't seem to find it there), but I find it very apt.

By the way, why do the Jedi always catch more flack here for the clone army than, say Jango? You know, the guy who actually sold his genetic material to create a slave army. The Jedi tried to make the best of a horrible situation. Jango (a member of that "morally superior" group; the Mandalorians) actively helped to create said horrible situation.

 

There's an enormous difference, though. One can lead to some hurt feelings, while the other leads to the continued institutionalized marginalization of a minority people and fosters an environment where poor treatment of said peoples are considered less objectionable, up to and sometimes including death in the case of gay, trans, and a number of people of color.

Then you're not really conceding the point, since to maintain your contention is to continue to be blind to the factors that gave rise to the entire situation in the first place. The clones have formed a mindset analogous to racial or gay pride, a responsive counter-attitude to push back against the outside condemnation that is pushed against them for being clones, and thus "lesser" people, in the first place.

It's easy to not care about representation and relatability when you're constantly being represented and have no shortage of characters and situations with which you can relate. For others, there's a severe deficiency, and thus a need to take whatever representation you can get. The Republic Commando novels are one of the few Star Wars works to feature protagonists who are people of color―not just the token black friend/teammate, but a varied group who are all not white taking nearly all of the lead spots―and combined with the fact that they also portray the struggle of a marginalized people attempting to find a place under a government unwilling to bestow them with equal rights, people who are looking to find identity, it's foolish to think that people who live with these conditions in the real world wouldn't relate to such a narrative.

It's not, and it's never, just a fictional novel. It's a fictional construct, yes, but built around very real ideas. No, the points of concern don't match up seamlessly, and at the end of the day, a book can always be put down. But attitudes and ideas don't vanish when you turn a page. People out in the world, everyday―people in this very fandom―reinforce many of these harmful ideas. And the thing about escapism is it isn't supposed to be select. Everyone has a right to escape, everyone has a right to find works that make them feel welcome and represented. Escapism can't just favor the same straight white male power fantasies all the time, there needs to be room for other people.

 

Sure, but to counter assume that all people of the “group” that person belongs, have the same attitude, and thus should of course all also be insulted for something one of them did, leads to the same.

Of course, but it does not help that the characters Traviss puts forward for it are not all that compelling for a long list of reasons Havac has already mentioned.

 

So... do you find it strange, then, that the biggest problems most people have with Traviss' writing come from her ludicrous writing of people are are, ostensibly, white? If I recall correctly nearly every non-clone human in her novels are white. And guess what? It has nothing to do with the fact that they're white. It has everything to do with the fact that they're written terribly. Whether they're white, black, male, female, whatever is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Traviss' story makes absolutely no sense in the grand scheme of the Star Wars universe. (I eagerly await someone trying to turn these words into, "Oh, so you don't have a problem with non-whites being portrayed poorly..." or some equally ridiculous argument, by the way)

And the clones are non-white because of a casting decision. If they were white males based on a casting decision in 2001, I'd have the same opinions I do now. Their skin color is irrelevant. I look at the quality of the story, the sense that the lesser story makes in a greater story, the flow of the story, whether I can "buy" what is being told, whether things "fit" together.

 

Riven_JTAC

What doesn't make sense? The perspective of her protagonists?

(Has only read HC, TZ, Bloodlines, Sacrifice, Revelation)

 

I would like to say that I find the Clonetroopers use of "Mongrel" as an insult/derogatory nickname is rather unimaginative. Not that mongrel is a bad insult, it is actually a rather god one: you call the other guy both a dog and question his parentage. The thing is that to me mongrel doesn’t fit the kind of "society" the clones have and I think that they would derogatory nicknames that point out that the other guy is not a trooper/soldier/fighter. Maybe "maggot", suggesting the other guys lack of a shell(armour); "civil" since only clonetroopers are true soldiers; “benchwarmer”, “paper pusher”, “back liner” all suggest some one who is not on the front line.

Pellaeon respect the clones? What happened to make him distrust them in TTT? Sounds a bit like Traviss did not want a character she liked to show traits she disliked

But what about the times it is just "of" or "the" and not both?

I think a better comparison would be Captain America to Dr. Strange

 

Altis' group were more in line with Luke's order as well as the old Jedi Order.

I think part of the trap of the Jedi is that they're often set up as almost being a fantastical version of the of the Church except a Church where the Priests have superpowers and are right by dint of the universe giving them said powers.

It's exceptionally hard to write and if you're in any way questioning of authority, especially when it's based on fantastical sky daddy, it can be a bit weird to read...which is made worse because the Force is real, so we're told, and the universe seems to back up, that the Jedi must always be right.

George has been said to really not like the idea of Dark Jedi at all, and that Jedi are Good and Sith are Evil. Which is fine for a few movies, but trying to expand the universe into something that lasts centuries...well, it raises some issues.

Not the least of which is that some of the things we see Jedi doing, such as mind control to get their way, rubs some people the wrong way, and in-universe where normal people don't feel the force and don't interact with Jedi on a daily basis a celibate order of monks with a military wing might look a bit weird...and this is actually partly how Palpatine took control.

The idea put forth in A NEW HOPE was just that these were lawkeepers who happened to tap into something greater than themselves, but were not in themselves special, and perhaps all people had this ability within them.

Once again I find myself wishing Star Wars had a creative consultant or at least a definitive story bible (not simply the holocron, which is just an encyclopedia of sorts) and a firmer guiding hand instead of a creator who just liked playing tourist every decade of so.

 

Excellent one-liner!

 

Still the way the catholic church goes about things

Not really, especially seeing how the first one we actually meet in the movies is a corrupted one.

Yet Vader is both, also Qui-Gon clearly loves to bend the rules.

You so need to read what Mander Zuma has to say on that in Scourge.

ANH is pretty interesting here actually with the attitudes shown by Motti and Han about the Force.

What it really just needs is far less Force Users and to make the Force mysterious and it's use the exception in the story, not the norm.

 

Agreement x 1000

 

Interestingly, the sentiment that Yoda was too rigid and that his effectively having a hand in for hundreds of years and not letting new blood and ideas in were the reason Altis jumped ship, and were where his primary disagreement with Yoda lay.

Altis seemed more like the questioning monk...or perhaps the Rabbi who always looks over his beliefs, to Yoda's quiet acceptance and then defense of his position on matters of theology.

It was implied that there were many of what fans now called the gray Jedi who were sidelined because they questioned, and despite our love for the little green guy, there is a question of whether Yoda was too rigid in his defense of the way things were, and not allowing things like Qui-Gon or Altis' more radical ideas to be discussed.

Luke's Order is so vastly different from Yoda's that one has to wonder what the lovable little guy would have thought about what Luke created, but on the other hand perhaps Yoda felt the darkness coming and thought he had to batten down the hatches and keep everyone in line. That's why it's interesting to question even the heroes, even when they may well have been 100% right, because there is always room to question and learn for even the right choices as well as the wrong ones.

 

The distrust stemmed from the Separatist-aligned clones from one of the Republic comic arcs, not from the Jango clones. He actually had a fair bit of respect for them. Though Lando, on the other hand, is totally anti-clone, as seen in Vision of the Future. He didn't even like Baron Fel's "friendly" clones.

 

Preferred the term "REMF" myself, but I was always prepared to fall back on and defend the Class VI store to the last.

 

I'd think any Class I station would be the primary rally point, personally.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about.

So one batch of bad clones made him distrust them all?

 

It's not uncommon (it's probably less common now days though) for the enlisted soldier to refer to officers in a bad light. Speaking as a veteran myself, and knowing that KT probably experienced some of that enlisted vs. officer mentality while she was in the Royal Auxiliary and used that experience as a writing point in the books. I knew plenty of worthless officers during my time in the USN and I also knew plenty of worthless sailors, during private conversations among my fellow sailors it was never uncommon to label members of either groups as "shipwrecks". As being someone who was very privy to officer conversations, I can say for a fact that those same conversations were had by officers. So when I read those parts of the book, too me it is very much more indicative of how life in the real military is.

You need to read "Open Seasons", because that comic illustrates that Jango didn't just "sell" his DNA to make the clone army. He actively contributed to a plan that would destroy the Jedi, and he knew it. He hated the Jedi for wiping out his troops at Gallidraan, and he wanted to see them destroyed. Jango's legacy wasn't just Boba...but it was also the destruction of the Jedi Order. Being a member of a culture who was continually used by force users (both Sith and Jedi) to die for goals that were not totally their own (but their Mandalores fell into traps built around "honor"), I can completely understand why Jango would do what he did. If anything it makes even MORE sense for him to do this seeing some of the newer EU canon surrounding Mandalorians, and specifically the Mandalorian Excision of 730bby. IMHO this is why Skirata and Vau relate so well to the RC's, because they are all part of cultures who are used to fighting someone else's war. The only difference being Kal and Vau didn't really have the first-hand experience of these ancient conflicts, and were steeped in the stories and traditions handed down from these conflicts.