ST Who's The Baddie?

Or plagueis jumps species to species

 

I wonder if that upcoming Syfo-Dyas arc (where Yoda presumably ventures to Korriban and meets spirits/holocrons of Bane and Kun) will mention Plagueis in some capacity. I would really like him to stay in his Muun form and be portayed by Cumberbatch or Weaving...

 

I definitely want him to stay a Muun and since we've already had a human main villain with Palpatine I'd really like to see something different. Essence transfer is something I hope Plagueis if he's in the films doesn't even contemplate. Midi-chlorian manipulation and regeneration is far more interesting to me. As far as prosthetics versus CGI, I think mo-cap would be the best way to go. So many great examples of it from Hulk to Gollum to Davy Jones.

 

HP TPS did not set up that people stay dead. Return from the dead was included pretty much in the beginning, the setup of the story.

Mr. Ollivander: Curious... very curious...
Harry: Sorry, but what's curious?
Mr. Ollivander: I remember every wand I've ever sold, Mr. Potter. It so happens that the phoenix whose tailfeather resides in your wand gave another feather... just one other. It is curious that you should be destined for this wand when its brother gave you that scar.
Harry: And who owned that wand?
Mr. Ollivander: We do not speak his name! The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter. It's not always clear why. But I think it is clear that we can expect great things from you. After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things. Terrible! Yes. But great.

Hagrid: You all right there, Harry? You seem very quiet.
Harry: He killed my parents, didn't he?
[puts a hand to his scar]
Harry: The one who gave me this?
[Hagrid is silent]
Harry: You know, Hagrid. I know you do.
[Hagrid sighs and pushes his bowl aside]
Hagrid: First - and understand this, Harry, 'cause it's very important - not all wizards are good. Some of them go bad. A few years ago there was one wizard that went as bad as you can go, and his name was V-
[sighs]
Hagrid: his name was V...
Harry: Maybe if you wrote it down...
Hagrid: Nah, I can't spell it. Alright
[whispers]
Hagrid: 'Voldemort'
Harry: [loudly] Voldemort?
Hagrid: Shhh! It was dark times, Harry, dark times. Voldemort started to gather some followers, brought 'em over to the dark side. Anyone who stood up to him ended up dead. Your parents fought against him, but nobody lived once he decided to kill them. Nobody... not one... 'cept you.
Harry: Me? Voldemort tried to kill... ME?
Hagrid: Yes. That ain't no ordinary cut on your forehead. A mark like that only comes from being touched by a curse, and an evil curse at that.
Harry: What happened to Vol- to You-Know-Who?
Hagrid: Well, some say he died. Codswallop in my opinion. Nope, I reckon he's still out there, too tired to carry on. But one thing's certain, something about you stumped him that night. That's why you're famous, Harry, that's why everybody knows your name. You're the boy who lived.

Voldemort: There is no good and evil. There is only power, and those too weak to seek it.

Voldemort: Harry Potter. We meet again.
Harry: Voldemort?
Voldemort: Yes. You see what I've become? See what I must do to survive? Live off another, a mere parasite! Unicorn blood can sustain me, but it cannot give me a body of my own. But there is something that can; something that, conveniently enough, lies in your pocket!

Enough for you or should I dig for even more quotes? I have precious little time as is.

I'm pretty sure the more popular novel has countless other examples, but I'm not in the mood to wade through my german copy and translate every single example.

@ Humby

I actually agree with what you're saying.

Dra---

Wouldn't you agree that Plagueis is only worth this effort if he is the main villain?

Too much expository dialogue can also be boring. There's a reason why the show don't tell rule is as popular as it is. The more you could show through actions and events the better.

 

I think the amount of expository dialogue is due to it's target audince being kids. I do like loads of exposition, I love the Middleearth movies and actually like the politics of the PT (the cartoonish comedy and subpar acting/dialogue are my personal blemishes), which is why enjoyed the Plagueis novel that much.

 

You should read Terry Pratchett then. You won't regret it.

 

That's not really exposition concerning Voldemort's return in a meaningful way is it??? It's perfunctory at best. It doesn't explicitly explain where he went and how he came back (as you seem to think is required for Plageuis).. that dialogue is merely setting him up as a character... and as you can see, it's rather scant. Which is the point - it didn't hurt the movie nor Voldemort as a character...

Compare your examples to what we've already seen in Revenge of the Sith:-

PALPATINE: (continuing) Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?

ANAKIN: No.

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

ANAKIN: What happened to him?

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.

ANAKIN: Is it possible to learn this power?

PALPATINE: Not from a Jedi.

Seems to me that there's as much exposition re. Plagueis in ROTS as there is regarding Voldemort in 'The Philosophers Stone'. So as I stated, not much required for his return in Ep VII.

 

I'm kinda indifferent as to weather he remains a Muun or is human. I do have to say that while reading the book, the idea of him being a Muun, tall and spindley, made him seem quite spooky.

That said, I never assumed him to be anything but human from Ep III until I found out he was a Muun in the book (which I only learned about this time last year).

if the book did not exist, and he was going to be the ST villain, I would go with human because the personal conflicts in Star Wars have always had their roots in human nature.

 

Him being a Muun was apparently on Lucas's instructions:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Plagueis

The book's announcement on StarWars.com was the first source to identify Plagueis as a Muun.[26] However, in March 2007 it was announced that the novel had been removed from the publishing schedule. Sue Rostoni's official explanation for the cancellation was that "this was not the right time to delve into Palpatine's back story and Plagueis's beginnings."[27] The novel was replaced with Darth Bane: Rule of Two.[28] Though Plagueis' species had been revealed in the novel's announcement, Leland Chee stated that its cancellation did not affect that decision, as it had not originated in the novel.[29] A panel on continuity at the Celebration IV convention revealed that his identity as a Muun had originally come from George Lucas.[30] Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force confirmed his species as a Muun and was the first source to give him a canonical image.

 

I am aware of this now, but I am not an EU guy at all, and only read the Plagueis book because of Lucas' apparent involvement. Interesting stuff.

 

You're kinda comparing apples and oranges here. Harry Potter TPS was the first part in the saga. The "rules" have not yet been set. Episode VII is, as the name says, the seventh part in an ongoing film series. One of the established rules is that death is permanent with exception of force ghosts.

OBW-ghost in ANH got a little setup and that's why we could buy into it in Empire.

 

Surely the set up is that a certain mastery of the force gives one the ability to retain identity after death? As you say, that was established in ANH and explored in subsequent films - so it isn't a new idea in Star Wars... it's not 'left field'. I think what I particularly like about the notion of Plageuis, Palpatine or other returning from the netherworld, is that it's an evolvement of the concept already seen in Star War... albeit in the shape of Jedi force ghosts. A Sith developing this skill and or having the ability to exist in the 'real' world, to be flesh and blood again, ups the anti in a much more natural sense... Better than just bringing in a villain with more horns or bigger guns etc. Yes - we've seen this trope play out in Harry Potter and TLOTR, but I'd argue that it was Star Wars that first played with these ideas anyway (in terms of big, modern fantasy movies).

 

First, where is such a "rule" established in the films?

Secondly, there is also the fact that the idea/possibility of Plagueis came into play in a prequel, which means it supersedes any "rules" that may have been established in the OT.

Thirdly, there is a huge difference between someone returning as a Force Ghost and manipulating the Force into bringing life back to your body, which is what I contend will be the case for Plagueis.

 

B.

 

Well, all the characters act as if they are certain death is permanent, including the heroes, Darth Vader and so on. No one even considers the possibility of fleshly resurrection. They seem to think about it like we do.

Not even in ROTS was this a topic. No it was "keep the ones you love from dying" not raising the dead or resurrecting yourself after death.

And I am not even getting into how Star Wars is a linear melodrama and for those to work consequences of actions and decisions must be final. If death is not final enough (ghosts are grey zone) then the foundation of the story is undermined.

 

Returning from death has been on the table since ANH when Luke heard Obi-Wan from beyond.

I'm not sure how to make my point when you say death is final in a story that has said otherwise from the very beginning?

 

Ghosts are a grey zone imo. Death is final, because it has final consequences. You can't come back in the flesh and reclaim your former life. But the consequences for a Jedi who knows how to ghost are a bit different than the consequences for you and me.

Still, severe and lasting consequences as is fitting for a linear melodrama.

If death can be undone, there are no severe and lasting consequences to it. In a way, the audience is cheated.

 

Plagueis doesn't have to be a Muun.

He could be a Muunkey.

 

I remember that when in Babylon 5 and Farscape (two space franchises with enough magicks in it) main characters got a hard resurrection (even though John Sheridan only "borrowed" time) I was pretty disappointed. I knew that if the main hero dies again, he would just be brought back.

 

What I'm wondering is, do we really need Plaguies as a villain? Wouldn't it be better for the writers to make up a completely new antagonist rather than be restrained by writing in a villain that's already been made up and thus, have to deal with constraints on their creativity as a result?

 

What other villain will tie the saga together?

 

Man, we went over that a bazillion times.

Take your pick from ex imperial to Palpatine's heir to secret apprentice.