ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

no thanks and I don't like such a scenario. This would bring such very troubleome stuff like if you have the right reason you can bomb an airport or something like that. There must be a clear line beween right and wrong or I cannot identify with it anymore. I don't understand the concept of grey to be honest.

 

how do you forgive yourself? what is freedom? how do you go back home?

 

He'll what!?

 

the world is confusing, ethics -the active negotiation of morality (or morals?) - are confusing.

none of us are omniscient so we have to go by our best guesses. and we can get it wrong.

grey is an attempt to say that actions are actions, that we continue to negotiate and that that negotiation is part of being an adult. to paraphrase st paul, we put away childish things and then we see as we are being seen.

judgement is an easy option, it's being able to shift perspective and empathise. that, you know, makes us human and helps us grow.

something like that.

 

I was thinking that Star Wars X could deal with these question. In the ST Kylo will realise his errors, he will look to help. In the end he will be imprisoned/exiled. Star Wars X-XII would bring back an older Ben and deal with the questions you asked

 

I could go with this, it may be fitting and leaving some hope for Leia and her only son without being too cheesy.

 

nah he can get there quicker. i can't have that dude spend two films wondering whether he got it wrong. he needs to get there quick so we can get to the bit where we overthrow perceptions and he gets to be awesome rather than moping about some FO base in search of his childhood.

honestly, i love the character to death but i'm not sure i can cope with any more of his sadness. it's enough, i can't look at the dude and see tears in his eyes all the time. go, get a life and do stuff you wanna do, whatever it is.

probably wishful thinking but still.

not sure driver would be up for it as well?

 

I actually like moral ambiguity, but frankly that's not a phrase I associate with SW. And even if I did associate it with SW, it's not a phrase I see having any applicability to anything regarding Kylo that we have seen so far. There is no grey there. I mean, if he murdered Han to stop the Hosnian System's destruction, okay, that is maybe ambiguous. But cold blooded, premeditated, first degree murder of innocents? No, in that context, it is a misuse of "moral ambiguity."

 

blame st paul. he got there first.

 

sorry but if Kylo in the next movie pulls ah 'ups I killed my father, killed millions on 5 different planets and tortured people I want as my future friends...but lets forget all of this'. This would be just a joke of a movie.

If redemption at all it needs time of several movies in which you see the progress and also people not trusting him.

 

nightangel

we can't spend two movies in some lockdown on showing scene after scene of how upset everyone is. i understand we need some of that but i think it can be handled alongside other things, such as, dunno light sabre fights or ... space battles, you know the kind of thing star wars is famous for.

we need something a little more kinetic than everyone getting to judge.

i think it'd be an incredible challenge to write relationships with those people. that's one of the reasons i enjoy fan fiction because people try to write that and i get to wonder whether it rings true. i find that an interesting exercise.

we don't know much about his past. personally i find the character incredibly sad and i'm desperate for all that sadness to stop. and i think he's already judging himself pretty severely for who he has become so i don't think any other character can match that level of self-loathing anyway.

it's a matter of showing us a few things and then letting those relationships infuse the drama, i guess.

 

darth_frared I still go for Luke, since he seems very sad as well with all of his lifework destroyed by Kylo.

 

Yeah I agree. I see him still bad in Ep8. He still desires his confrontation with Luke. For me that will be the final conflict in Ep8. But in episode 9 I expect him to have his eyes open. The interesting thing about a redemption story is the conflict that can arise between the heroes. Luke and Leia would want to help Kylo, but will Rey and Finn? If he turns we need to see the consequences and the hesitation for the heroes.

If he turns in the last 15 mins and then dies I will be very, very disappointed.

 

i'm going to go all out and claim that *someone* destroyed luke's work and that it wasn't necessarily ben (also, what that work was, we don't know) and i'm going to say that he might not want to kill luke. it might be what snoke wants, but maybe not kylo/ben.

but it's moot. who knows.

i'm feeling mellow tonight. i want these characters to have a modicum of happiness. like, i know they aren't real but still.

luke looked pretty haggard and wayward himself. why isn't he with his family? what's he doing exiling himsel flike that? that's not the luke i know etc etc.

 

It's not that morality is childish, it's that there needs to be wavers in how the moral code goes in regard to a person. You can't have a strictly black or white character due to the fact that it makes them seem one dimensional and thus pretty hard to relate to. For example, how many people can relate directly to a "Saint" like character that can do no wrong, won't waver, and how many can relate to a mustache twirling evil guy? Not that many in general because both are used as a type to be used to push a plot point rather then let the characters development move the story. So it makes people relate less to the character.

However, character with decent or good morality are still very much looked up to, see the debacle with Superman v Batman and how people feel that Superman is being torn down due to the "boy scout" view that people have on him. Yet people want that type of character, but even Superman isn't perfectly pristine. He's Clark Kent, a human being, with all the flaws of a normal person. He has a great moral code, but that doesn't mean he won't get jealous, or get angry, or feel sad, or even make mistakes in regard to things.

The idea of the grey jedi is epitomized I think by Jolee Bindo, from Old Republic, where he points out that :"The capacity for good or evil, like the force itself, is in all living creatures. And belonging to the Jedi order or the Sith, or any group, won't change who you are at your Core." -Jolee Bindo, Knights of the Old Republic 1.

The idea of the Grey morality is that while you're on the path of "good" you can fully understand the idea of why someone might be lured to the "bad". This doesn't mean that a person can't go down a light path, it means that they can perceive and accept their darker elements as well. I agree that claiming the view point of black and white is not cool is a dumb thing, but at the same time saying that grey morality in the sense of viewing both sides or things is dumb is wrong too.

 

Mmm The jedi temple must have a role to play in the new story. Luke going there to hang out seems like a little hollow.

 

yep I agree if there is a redemption arc, it cannot be a cheap and easy one.

 

Sometimes I feel like you and I are kindred spirits

 

you keep coming across as being scared of other povs. i don't know if that is your intention but that's how you read a lot of the time to me.

not sure why you are insinuating that i said those things.

i said st paul said them first. and i like what he says. simple. i don't care much about his sainthood either but he must have been a passionate man (all those letters) and i think he understood something then and there on the road to damascus. so, you know, why dismiss him.

the reason you should absolutely read this bit is because it is beautiful.

here's the quote and it doesn't actually pertain to morality.

Darkspellmaster

you are saying it so much better! (long time no see etc etc )

 

I think it's possible for Rey to forgive the interrogation scene, remember when this happened to Han?
Luke did forgive Vader for this in ROTJ, and this looks pretty horrifying. We still don't have all the pieces for 8 & 9 ...so it's still possible for Kylo to earn forgiveness from those that he's wronged. It will not be an easy road but neither was Vader's.

 

In fairness you did say you wanted a simple good v evil storyline.