PT Who Thinks the Prequel Trilogy is Better than the Originals?

Thank God he didn't direct ROTJ.

 

The problem with polls is that by default, something ends up at the bottom - even consistently - but that does not always mean they are hated. If asked to rate Pink Floyd albums e.g I'm sure Dark Side of the Moon would come top, I would probably agree - but I love Animals - which always seams to be forgotten about over the other albums. Sgt.Pepper would sit at the top of a Beatles poll, which is hard to argue against - but it is not my favorite album.

If you look at the official site poll it is quite surprising - though ESB and actually ROTS as well takes quite a big chunk of the votes (one from each), there is not that much difference between the remaining films - particularly given that TPM and AOTC are supposedly the worst films ever made and by rights should attract no votes at all.

Putting TPM first is putting the money where you mouth is - I mean how many people have TFA at No 1? Well of course it is better than all those other films people talk about - though are likely a myth, but actually the most common response is it is better than ROTJ. So at least they managed to make a film better than the one with the teddy beat army most people consider the weakest eh?

I could rate my cats - because there is always a fussy one, or the one who can't decide if it wants in or out - but really - why ?

 

Very true. It essentially just means that X is less good than Y; or X is preferred less of the time than Y.

But don't we all love X-wings and Y-wings?

(Apart from J.J. Abrams. He just loves X's).

They do tend to fall last.

But you're right: the difference isn't that big.

Indeed. It's all a bit silly at the end of the day.

I find it difficult to pick one SW film. And I think it misses the point.

It's one saga: one giant network of midi-chlorians!

 

Whenever someone asks me to rate the Star Wars films or pick one or two favorites, my standard answer is "I can't" - Because I really can't! They are episodes of a series, or courses of a banquet, all bringing their own dish to the table, complementing and accentuating eachother's flavors to become a truly memorable feast.
I enjoy every single episode as a standalone experience, but it's the larger context of the Saga that makes them all truly great. Remove but one and the outcome will be decidedly different. Still rich, yet lacking in texture.
That's why I really do love them all equally.

 

Here's a real headscratcher.

I prefer OT over PT but ROTS is my favorite SW movie......

So far.

 

You said I was the only one. Your data just proves YOU wrong. Clearly I'm one of 4.6%
And look at that pretty prequel ROTS in second place! Awwww.

 

ROTS deserves it's 2nd place spot.

 

Damn you Cryogenic... May a baby Rathtar crawl up your leg and nibble on your.....

Anyway, I will concede that Star Wars does tend to use the term "boy" a little more liberal than I would, even though most of the examples you provided fall into the categories I said earlier of dominance(authority) or insulting. The one that made me take a step back was "That boy was our last hope".

However I won't go as far as to say that "they" did their homework. I still think that Han is being more honest there, because calling Ben a boy doesn't do anything as far as decieving Rey and Finn. They aren't going to know either way, Han could, have simply said a young pupil (which he says) and not included boy and still had the same desired effect of giving as little info as possible. So it seems to me that Han is being more literal in that case than possessive (my boy), or decieving.

However, the bigger issue that the timeline brings up is the issue of Rey, her heritage, and when why she was dropped off on Jakku. One of the things that has stopped me from really harping on her character, the Mary Sue argument, and the miraculous Force awakening she goes through is that it seems TFA wants to setup her background and that it has something to do with Skywalkers, Kylo, and Lukes Jedi Temple being destroyed. So the narrative in TFA puts those hints in place. Which for me would make sense. Rey is a Skywalker, that for whatever reason survived the raid on the Jedi Temple, was hidden on Jakku, and what we see happening in TFA is some training that has been depressed starting to surface.

So that's why I haven't been too hard on her character and the Mary Sue. However, if the timeline in Bloodline is correct, well than that pretty much cancels out that nice neat story line and starts to make Rey look more like a Mary Sue, and less like a Skywalker with repressed training. Unless Luke or Leia were in the habit of dumping their kids off on desolate planets for no good reason.

Also, I know that there are possible storylines that could make sense with Rey and still have her be a Skywalker and have it all fit (i.e. They think she died for some reason). I'm not against having to rethink storylines, we've had to do it before in Star Wars, but, there still needs to be some meat on the bone for me to gnaw on to make it work... I read on another forums that Pablo Hidalgo started to walk some things back we see in TFA, mainly that Rey's vision may not be a correct representation of what happened which was supposedly a comment on her age in the vision. I haven't actually seen the comment myself yet, so take that with a huge, huge grain of salt...huge.... Grain.... Of salt!

 

I love SW Episodes I-VII.

For various personal reasons, Episode V will always be among my ALL TIME fav films. Empire's meaning transcends SW for me.
It's personal, not business.

Otherwise, my rankings change, from time to time.
Revenge of the Sith is currently second on my list and will most likely remain there for a long time.
I also love The Force Awakens and Attack of the Clones.
And Return of the Jedi, the SW film I've seen the most, due to circumstances in my life.
I love ANH and TPM and am very excited for Episode VIII and Rogue One, as well.

I don't think the PT is better than the OT, but it is just as awesome and deserves respect and recognition, imho.
The Star Wars films are tops. It's true.
MTFBWY.

 

Indeed. Individually, there are other films that best the Star Wars movies, or at least offer things that they don't, but when you bring them all together in collective unity, it's hard -- for me, anyway -- to think of any other movie, or set of movies, period, that can really measure up to the colours, the art direction, the characters, certainly the story, and the general sweep and panoramic beauty of the whole thing. Lucas really created something special here. There are plenty of good films, but few great ones, and even fewer extraordinary undertakings. When I watch Star Wars or consider the saga as an integrated entity, I've caught myself thinking, "Why can't movies always be as good as this?" That, to me, signals that your mind is basking in the presence of something that you, or it, considers to be true genius. When something comes along, in any field, that makes everything else look monochrome by comparison, you know -- or you can be reasonably personally confident -- that a new portal has opened up in human consciousness.

Ah, dang! All in good fun, Mike.

Whether Han is being honest or not -- well, I think that's a bit of a red herring. I just maintain, by the "rules" of the series, Han's use of the term "boy" is appropriate. And he perhaps is being a bit dishonest; or using a bit of misdirection. Your objection to the term is the very lens that helps me see that! You're right, maybe, that it's a slightly odd and cold term for a father to describe their own son with. It suggests some distancing on Han's part, I think. And that's okay. He hasn't quite opened up to the tragedy of his relationship with Leia and their failed parentage (indeed, by reverting to his old life of smuggling, he has placed himself in retreat). Rey and Finn's entry into his life is setting the BB-8 rolling on that. Han subliminally expresses an awareness of this before the map fragment is displayed (by, of course, BB-8): "Move, ball!"

Rey's vision is a little strange if taken literally. The most salient aspect of her emotional struggle -- as Darth Downunder has taken pains to point out -- is that she feels terribly abandoned, and therefore, clingy. So there is perhaps some artistic licence being taken in depicting her as a little girl (dressed almost the same as her young adult self) screaming at this departing ship to come back (incidentally: this moment is shortly to be mirrored by Finn screaming Rey's name as he helplessly watches Kylo Ren's shuttle departing into the heavens). It bears pointing out, I think, that Anakin's visions weren't entirely accurate in ROTS, either (another parallel if there be one: disturbing visions being shown to the audience in ROTS and TFA).

Gentle reminder: It is best not to take anything in Star Wars too literally*.

*This is also the prime message of Anakin's visions in the final George Lucas-directed installment.

 

Cryogenic

I don't want to derail the thread any further with TFA stuff.. So I will just say I see where you're coming from, but, I still feel there was a narrative purpose for Han using the term boy to describe what happened to Luke's Jedi, and the fact we see Rey as a young girl in her vision. It suggests intent to set a timeline and that we are to associate that the events are somewhat related.


As for not taking Star Wars too literally. I disagree.

The prime purpose of these movies is to tell a story, and by Lucas's own words to send a message that most people can understand. So in order to do that and have those messages understood by at least most of the audience, things have to be, or for the most part anyway... Have to be taken literally. There's no way to send a message via modern myth telling if everything is on the fence, or everything's up for interpretation. Yes, there are some things that will always be up for interpretation, but, for the most part, a lot of what Star Wars is can be taken literally so as to understand the message being sent by the artist, so we can follow the story. After all, that's why Lucas was so adamant about getting away from the studios, he wanted to tell the story he wanted to tell to send the message he wanted to send. This involves a great deal of looking at his stories and what the characters are doing and saying, literally. There are obviously deeper meanings and ideas we can dig out of the stories, but, Lucas's intent wasn't for people to have to guess what everything meant.

Now when it comes to TFA, I understand that it is the first of three, so our perceptions of what things mean will change as the next two movies come along. I have no problem with that. However, it still all needs to fit with as little POV jokes or explanations when it comes to discrepancies in the story as possible. At least for me...

 

Me, either (derailing the thread). They're suggesting a timeline, but there's some plasticity in the presentation, I think.

Think of it this way: it's more psychologically true than literally true.

Remember the cave scene (though they're all cave scenes -- ah, shut up, brain!):

Was/is Luke literally Darth Vader?

Mike, I appreciate what you're saying, and it's certainly true that Star Wars is remarkably straitlaced in some ways, but, ah...

I think you're missing the point of mythology rather profoundly here. Something being mythically true is much the opposite of it being literally true. Mythology is a way of dealing with the frightening and beguiling complexity of the world and expressing deep-rooted dreams and nightmares through allegory and metaphor.

However, you appended the word "modern" in front of the term "myth telling", which is clever. Yes, Star Wars is rather modern about it, which means it does things with a sort of pithy upfrontedness compared to the myth-making of former times. It *is* still mythology, however. Your term is an important modifier, much as Lucas has described himself as "Buddhist-Methodist". Star Wars has that dualism about it. But that doesn't entirely rescue your objection -- metaphor is still very much in play.

Even worse, in this case, you're taking a Force vision, of all things, and trying to impugn the film based on the characteristics of that vision, as if such a thing -- a film within a film -- were fully reliable, rather than a journey into abstraction! I don't think that's quite right. I think the film should be given some latitude in this matter.

That's fine. Indeed, I was having a little joke, before, and not being entirely serious. All I am saying is, Star Wars has its own language and tends to put a little "ring" on everything. And, here and there, it steps outside of itself -- beyond the parameters of the strictly rational or explicable -- and pushes farther ("Father!!!") into metaphor, allegory, and allusion.

And also, between one film and the next (even within the same film; sometimes the same scene), details don't entirely sync up. We can all think of examples. I used to say, Star Wars is not consistent, but coherent. That, to me, remains an important distinction.

 

Both movies are structured in a coherent and creative way, they do not detract from each other.

The OT builds off the PT, and the PT builds of the OT.

It's the Classic Symphonic Harmony, weaved together in a perfect sonata.

 

BTW, mikeximus...

Please don't mistake my last few posts as offering unbridled support for the film (TFA).

It has some okay qualities, but on the whole, I still find it desperately average.

Back to prequels/originals.

 

No worries Cryo..


Even if you did a complete reversal on TFA that's your choice and you need not have to explain it to anyone, at the very least me.

I started a reply to your previous post, once I finish it, I will PM it to you in the interest of not derailing the thread any further...

 

The Force Awakens might be the second-best example of motion picture narrative economy I have ever encountered, after The Matrix Revolutions. It's definitely in that tradition.

That said...

MENACE = ECANEM

 

Thanks, Mike.

On TFA:

Middling, yet confounding.

Such is the power of Star Wars, still.

Happy to read.

 

The Star Wars Prequel Trilogy. It is the single most monumental artwork to have been created since the invention of cinema. Can anyone truly grasp its greatness? Have you ever looked at all the details that it has to offer? The imagination is boundless. People like to smear it into obscurity, but they are wrong. Nothing can overcome their obstacles except for the human mind that is open. How is it that someone who claims to be an expert in cinema has to trash this beautiful piece? Love is always better than hate. Keeping up with the times, the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy is up to the task of formulating and articulating a multitude of both harmonious and discordant ideas into a seven hour span. Goodness in cinema. What does it mean? It means that just about anything can be found in it. All you have to do is look with a particular idea in mind and the mirror that is the screen will confirm it. I dare anyone to try to outthink these motion pictures. It is impossible. As soon as you think you’ve thought of something that they have not accounted for, exactly that thing will pop up and smile at you. Is there any way to convince people that the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy is a masterpiece? Not just that, but the masterpiece to end and begin all masterpieces? Look at how specific each image is. Look at each pixel. I bet you’ve never done that before. But I’m here to tell you that it is all designed with revolution in mind. Does it look nice? Yes. Does it sound nice? Yes. Now go way, way further than that. I am deliberately avoiding specifics about these movies. It is time for that to change. The opening shot of the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy. Hello! It encapsulates every other movie in their entirety. Speak to these movies and they will answer you. You need an imagination to do this. It’s OK. It’s a marvel whether you want it to be or not, because I have seen it as such and my interpretive intent counts. Must every single detail be grasped? No. That would take forever. But try to catch them all as best as you can. Just bathe in it. Immerse yourself. I’m still talking about the opening shot. Something has happened where people are not capable of acknowledging the obviousness of its situation as best thing ever. Have you ever noticed that one detail? Which one? That one. Or any of the others. Those miniscule colored dots are there for a reason, you know. It’s not as though the image is a random scramble. The most advanced cinematic techniques went into its production. Mountains upon mountains of choices inform this thing to the most insane degree imaginable. Come to grips with it. It has been thoroughly dismissed for no reason whatsoever. Riffle through it. Pick out a detail. Now wonder. What information does that speck contain? If you dismiss it, you miss it. I’m telling you, as plain as day, that these movies can help you attain enlightenment. They can transform you into a genius. Try it! It’s fun! Have you ever looked at an image for more than a single moment? Have you ever looked at the same image again and again with new information each time? Have you ever noticed the distinct aesthetic complexity on display in the most truly autonomous artworks to come out of Hollywood? The Star Wars Prequel Trilogy is begging to be analyzed, but sometimes it escapes even my grasp. It is slippery in its overwhelming magnificence. What if no one has even scratched its surface? What if I actually engaged with it at a level never before seen? I have studied this thing for over a decade and I am still obsessed with it. But it feels healthy and pleasurable. When will it finally be understood? Never? Knowledge can unlock anything. It has secrets abound! I know this because I have already found thousands of them. I invite anyone to bask in their glory. Now is the time for this excursion. Blank screens. Compared to this. Utterly profound and gratifying and skillful and mind-opening. Take a risk and choose to like these movies. You will not be disappointed. The obvious revealed.

 

True. The SW PT, is wanting it's attention. It wants to be look at, stripped apart in it's nakedness, searched, studied and loved. It, SHE wants, needs to be analyzed...So much detail within her bodily structure! Not even a doctor or even scientist would miss out on the beauty of her amazing yet detailed anatomy !


Lets suppose that you were able every night to dream any dream you wanted to dream, and you would naturally as you began on this adventure of dreams, you would fulfill all your wishes. You would have every kind of pleasure, you see, and after several nights you would say, well that was pretty great, but now lets have a surprise, lets have a dream which isn't under control. Well something is going to happen to me that i don't know what it's gonna be. Then you would get more and more adventurous, and you would make further and further out gambles as to what you would dream, and finally you would dream where you are now.-Allan Watts

 

You guys are both crazily poetic.

There's truly something to the formidable density of the prequels.

Rick McCallum really wasn't kidding when he passed those famous words across his lips.

Indeed, he might have articulated, in a handful of tidy words, more than Lucas, with his hidden-meaning-in-plain-sight aphorisms ever has, even!

I think these movies beg to be watched, broken apart, analyzed, and reassembled. They are Threepio going through the droid factory, endlessly.

But your phrasing, Ezon! Wow!! You said it best:


"It wants to be look at, stripped apart in it's nakedness, searched, studied and loved. It, SHE wants, needs to be analyzed...So much detail within her bodily structure!"


Gimme that thing, gimme all that!

If there is a Lucas comment that comes to mind, it's his one about Star Wars being "a much more intricately-made clock than most people would imagine" (Vanity Fair, 2005).

Mike Klimo, in fact, has the full quote on his website:


"The interesting thing about Star Wars—and I didn’t ever really push this very far, because it’s not really that important—but there’s a lot going on there that most people haven’t come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it’s a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine."
http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/


If "a clock is a lock", then, assuredly, "Jar Jar is the key to all this".


These movies can never be made full sense of. But they call out for return visits. And how splendid it is to return!

 

Regarding the whole 'Rey's vision of herself as a child was symbolic' thing, it's worth noting that on the shelf of her little home, she has a little doll, implying she's been there since childhood literally.

 

I certainly prefer the Prequels by a lot.

 

I think I understand

ECANEM=E CANE ("away from the dog")
CANIS=KYNOS=CYNIC
Menace="away from the cynic"
Thus Menace="not cynical?" (or maybe, "beyond reproach?")

 

Mind. Blown.

 

The prequels certainly have a more open world and universe to them. I'm thankful for growing up with them. I'd hate to be a fan or a writer stuck with the limited scope of the OT until 1994 when we got our first look at Coruscant.