PT The reaction to the Rogue One Vader scene is exactly what Lucas wanted to avoid in ROTS

1. Strong: He uses one hand while Luke uses two and manages to quickly muscle him to the ground in the first few seconds of fighting.
2. Graceful: He leaps down stairs in one graceful jump.
3. Can pull blasters out of hands: Ask Han Solo
4. Can toss things around with ease and attack while the victim's attention is divided. Yup. Whole section of the duel just on this.
5. I believe it is accepted as fact that Vader could have killed Luke very quickly in ESB had that been his goal. Probably a faster scene than the R1 scene.

We didn't imagine this Vader. You just forgot him.

 

Yes Cryo, "conjecture". I said that I believe it's doubtful that Lucas would've had a major problem with that scene. I then gave my reasons for that doubt. Note that I didn't say "Lucas didn't have a problem with that scene". I didn't claim to know for sure. However it's common sense that if someone loves a movie to the point of praising it to the extent that Lucas is reported to've done, it's less likely that he had issues with any particular scene. In contrast, if he went on for half an hour about how much he hated the film, then it would be more likely that he disliked it. That's just basic probability. However we can't be sure either way. That's why I merely used the word "doubtful" rather than pretending to know.

No & I didn't claim to. I didn't make any absolute statements regarding his opinion on this. Nerdling did, though it's hardly a big deal. I'm sure he simply forgot to include an "IMO" or a "I believe that...". Hardly worthy of a drawn out argument Cryo. & don't call me Louise. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

 

Here's a thought. What if on Bespin, Luke enters the carbon freezing area, Vader makes his presence known AND

10 rebels (or Bespin Guards) rush in and put themselves between Vader and Luke. WWVD? He'd slice through them R1 style to get to Luke quickly.

 

I thought I was interested in this movie, until I saw some blue milk on the counter.

Early nostalgia nod. Life ruined.

He'd throw them into the freezing pit, then play them a tape of Jar Jar sounds on repeat.

 

But here is the thing, we have what Tolkien's son said. I know that the author of the Neverending Story was highly critical of the first film. Same with Ursula Le Guin and the TV miniseries based of the "Wizard of Earthsea" books.
So the opinion of them are known.
So if anyone invokes the author's dislike for the film, that is a matter of public record.

Here, some that are critical of this scene and feels it doesn't fit SW or Vader and they invoke Lucas to support their opinion.
But Lucas has not condemned this scene or this film.
So the support of Lucas is assumed.
Second, what Lucas actually has said about this film is quite positive.
But what you and others have done is try to ignore that or argue that Lucas liked the whole film but he might not have liked that scene. But you have no evidence that Lucas feels this way.

To me, this makes the invoking of Lucas support rather flimsy.
Not only do you not have Lucas stating his dislike but Lucas has in fact stated a like for the film. So that has to be ignored in order to keep arguing that Lucas does not care for this scene.

If anyone does not like this scene or feels that it is "fanservice" or at odds with how they see SW or what they think Lucas would have done. Fine.
But when a support of Lucas is assumed despite lack of evidence to support it and even in the face of evidence that speaks to the opposite, then this argument is on shaky ground.

Just say that it is your opinion, if Lucas agrees or disagrees, that should not matter.

Let me ask you, suppose that Lucas DID come out an state his approval for this scene and how great it was and that it fit the film and so on.
Would that make the opinion of those that don't like it less valid?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

You're asking me about a position that I don't take. Personally, I am judging the scene by my own standards. I said that in the OP. I'm just saying that other people can use other criteria to judge films or bring in other criteria to form their standards. There are probably a few things where Lucas' opinion would matter to me, but this isn't one of them.

So, what I'm arguing is that if a person feels that the scene goes against Lucas's standards or even that person's perception of the Lucas's standards or that perception of what makes the Saga the Saga, then that's fine by me. It's not for me to judge.

If someone said -- "I'm tired of lightsaber fights. We've had too many of them. I think adversaries should solve their conflicts with rap battles from now on." -- I wouldn't judge that besides think it sort of strange. That is that person's prerogative.

I don't see why this attitude towards other people's opinions is controversial. People can appreciate films for whatever reason they want.



Now I can understand why someone would say, "I don't think Lucas would think that." I can understand why someone would try to convince another person that their view of Lucas' preferences is the correct one.

However, at the end of the day, I don't see why, if that other person isn't convinced, the first person doesn't just shrug his shoulders and think, "Well, that's what I think about Lucas. You can think something else."

Also, I don't understand why, if Lucas's opinions aren't important to that first person, that first person doesn't think, "Well, whether Lucas would've liked it or not, I still like it."

 

I liked the scene when I saw the film in the cinema because it showed just how terrifying Vader can be, but upon reflection I do think it was a little gratuitous (as in it was just there to be fan service, not that I think it was too violent).

 

Lucas is an artist. Disney is a money making machine.

 

I see this as more of a filmmaking/real world issue than an in-universe one. The idea that they can't make bionic parts that are as good as the real thing in the Star Wars universe is laughable. Hell, I don't see why Vader couldn't have done more to fix himself with the technology they must have.

 

I have no idea why people continue to post this nonsense. It's not getting any less stupid.

- Disney has created some of the finest and most successful films of all time.
- Disney is also really good at merchandising and monetizing their IP

- George Lucas/Lucasfilm has also created some great and successful films
- George Lucas/Lucasiflm was also a master of mechandising and monetizing his IP


Lucas is arguably even better at merchandising and marketing than he is at film-making... he was way ahead of everyone back in the 1980s.

 

Lucasfilm also made a lot of money.

The difference with Lucas and Disney is that Lucas created his own company and was independent for a long period of time. Not to mention, he was very self-aware on what he had become. He was both an Artist and a business man, though he was more "artsy" at heart.

Now you have to remember too, Lucas wasn't as corporate as Disney. And honestly, there has always been arguments on Disney's motives and business ethics way before Star Wars was bought.

 

Oh wait... you mean like how WALT DISNEY created his own company?

 

Disney died 50 years ago. Disney has acted like any other corporation for years. Walt Disney fans can list numerous ways that the Disney corporation has pooped on his legacy and his vision. For instance, Disney wanted to the parks to be free to public at some point. He also wanted Epcot to be city where real people lived in state of the art futuristic homes with cutting edge amenities. My mother-in-law loves Walt Disney. I'm sure she could tell me 10 more off the top of her head.

 

I see where you're coming from, but it shouldn't need saying; yet say it I must:

A person not condemning something is hardly the same as them supporting something.

For a variety of reasons, people don't go around saying "I don't agree with this", or "This is horrible", even when they should or they might want to.

And it's clear that Lucas did have some issues with the Disney handover after seeing the direction they chose to take TFA in. But even then, as critical as he was of Disney with some choice words on Charlie Rose in 2015 ("white slavers"), he had retracted that comment a few weeks later, while still having only just damned TFA with faint praise at its European (and second) premiere.

Which, if you read between the lines a bit (at some point, yes, you have to, if you want to build a bigger picture), suggests he was still disgruntled with Disney, but realized he had better not be too fierce or else face tough consequences. He obviously quickly saw the logic in gagging himself and backing off from his most extreme statements; or someone made him see the logic.

So it's a bit naive to imagine he is hunky-dory about RO given how obviously dismayed and barely in the mood to be nice about it (while still trying to rationalize the sale: i.e., his don't-burn-down-the-coffee-shop analogy) he was on Charlie Rose, when TFA was not long to be released, before he felt compelled to "clarify" his remarks in a legalese retraction. Plus, Charlie Rose is something of a media pal of Lucas', and he has a knack of getting good stuff from people with their guard a little down, giving us a bit more of the real person than a tightly-controlled celebrity promoting their latest movie on a late-night "talk" show.

Yet, for all that, tacit support by Lucas is being assumed by people who (ironically) never seemed to care for half the man's choices in the first place; evidently as yet another boulder to hang over prequel fan's heads; or those few prequel fans in here expressing a different view of the film or its slaughter sequence. "Lucas likes it, therefore you're wrong and clinging onto foolishness" seems to be the implied message. Which doesn't apply so much in reverse, by the way; since some here, I think, might have certain difficulties with RO as a whole (*raises hand*), but are not calling anyone else wrong (even if I personally think the slaughter sequence is pretty lame along with the rest of the film).

What grounds have you for asserting anything as extreme as "what Lucas actually has said about this film is quite positive"? To the public, he hasn't said one word about it. We only have some loosely-worded third-hand relaying by Disney/LFL employees of what he allegedly felt about it -- how convenient.

And if that sounds bitter or cynical on my part, I feel I need to give people a bit of an education here in the shifting sands (no wonder Anakin said sand is coarse and rough and irritating) of the Disney/LFL PR machine; and what is relayed and when.

For instance, concerning TFA (and this will become more important in a moment), Kathleen Kennedy originally reported to the press that Lucas "really liked it"; but Lucas was flatly saying something different a few weeks later at the European premiere.


Kathleen Kennedy:

According to Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy, Lucas, who sold his company to Disney in 2012 and was not involved in the new Star Wars film, will attend the premieres this month in Los Angeles and London. Lucas has seen the film, Kennedy tells The Hollywood Reporter, and "he really liked it."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/george-lucas-attend-star-wars-845948
(Dec 4th 2015)



And the full interview a few days later:

Wouldn't it be better if he didn't talk about the new movie?


I don't want to second-guess what George feels he needs to say or do. It's up to him. If there's one thing I've always known about George, he's never held back on his opinions. Of course I want him to be happy with what we're doing. But having him 100 percent on board is up to him. He's said in his own words, he can't do that unless he's the one running everything. [But] he's seen the movie, and he really liked it.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/lucasfilms-kathleen-kennedy-what-george-846858
(Dec 9th 2015)



George Lucas:

Video material from the European premiere of TFA held on Dec 16th 2015:




Time Index: 5:58

Interviewer:
Now you've seen the movie and you've seen the new cast. What was your reaction seeing these hugely talented new faces running with these roles on-screen?

Lucas: Great actors. They did a terrific job and, y'know, I think it's a movie that the fans will really love.

(Lucas gives a stiff smile)

Interviewer: And that's the most important thing, after all, isn't it?

(Lucas makes an awkward face)

Lucas: Ya.

(Lucas laughs awkwardly and turns away from the interviewer)



Notice that Lucas actually gives a shorter answer than the question put to him in the top instance, and a far shorter answer, literally not even a completed "yes", straight after the interviewer seems to try and prize a bit more out of him (plus the awkward laugh that follows and the turning away).

None of which is particularly perplexing when you also watch the following video recorded at the same event:



Time Index: 0:14

Lucas: Uh, I don't know. It's hard to say what fans take away from the films, and sometimes they see the films very differently than you do. I learned that when I added seven frames to show that Han didn't just shoot somebody in cold blood.

(Lucas gives his classic laugh and turns to a different reporter)


Lucas deeming TFA a movie that the fans would love was clearly no slip of the tongue; nor was it an example of Lucas being lost for words (as some have strangely tried to suggest on this forum).

In fact, a few days before the premieres of TFA in Los Angeles and London, a reporting outlet sought Lucas out for comment on Kathleen Kennedy's second-hand reportage. A reporter caught up with him at the Kennedy Center Honors in Washington, where Lucas was being given yet another award for his contributions to film and culture. What would his endorsement of TFA actually be; if any?


Lucas:

“I think the fans are going to love it,” he said. “It’s very much the kind of movie they’ve been looking for.”

http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/george-lucas-delivers-a-verdict-on-force-awakens.html
(Dec 7th 2015)


That second remark, after the "he said", technically bears down on what Lucas' real opinion might be toward the Vader slaughter in RO, in my opinion.

But before we get to that, could it be that Lucas had a sudden change of heart after the box-office takings of TFA started racking up and smashing records?


Because then, after an earlier "sneak peak" in November, the full interview Lucas did with Charlie Rose airs on Dec 30th 2015:

http://ew.com/article/2015/12/30/george-lucas-charlie-rose-interview/

Lucas then immediately issues an apology which is reported on the very next day on Dec 31st 2015:

http://www.thewrap.com/george-lucas-apologizes-for-white-slavers-remark-about-disney/



Superficially, if we read the wording of the retraction, Lucas is happy with the direction the franchise is headed in:

Lucas:

“I want to clarify my interview on the Charlie Rose Show. It was for the Kennedy Center Honors and conducted prior to the premiere of the film. I misspoke and used a very inappropriate analogy and for that I apologize.

I have been working with Disney for 40 years and chose them as the custodians of Star Wars because of my great respect for the company and Bob Iger’s leadership. Disney is doing an incredible job of taking care of and expanding the franchise. I rarely go out with statements to clarify my feelings but I feel it is important to make it clear that I am thrilled that Disney has the franchise and is moving it in such exciting directions in film, television and the parks. Most of all I’m blown away with the record breaking blockbuster success of the new movie and am very proud of JJ and Kathy.”

(Ibid.)

Cynically, if one studies the dialogue of the prequel trilogy with sufficient "care", one may note that Palpatine instructs Nute Gunray and the other Separatist leaders that his new apprentice is shortly to arrive and will "take care" of them. So there is a potential double meaning lurking in plain sight in the above.

Further, the above was quite evidently issued in something of a legal flap, given its hasty issuance just after the airing of the Charlie Rose interview where Lucas lavishes on his interviewer, and therefore on camera, several broadsides against Disney, with his "white slavers" remark merely being the most conspicuous example of his disdain.

The wording of the retraction is clipped and cold and has all the expressivity and excitement of a boilerplate apology. In other words, Lucas shuts his real mouth down and gives cordial assent to Disney's power structure. Yet Lucas still manages to sneak a hint that this isn't the "real" him speaking: "I rarely go out with statements to clarify my feelings". Lucas also chooses to highlight the incontestable financial success of TFA, which could be predicted in advance based on the overwhelming popularity of the Star Wars brand, Disney's aggressive marketing tactics, and the fact that Lucas himself earlier made clear he believed that Disney had made a film with fan appeal strongly in mind.

Things were also evidently a bit icy between Lucas and Kennedy in 2015. She spoke ahead of him to the press about his response to the film, he twice then offered a more guarded (one might say backhanded) appraisal of the film, at the Kennedy Center Honors in Washington, and at the European premiere of TFA held in London, respectively, and despite claiming to be "very proud" of "JJ" and "Kathy" at the close of his retraction, Lucas only appears at the TFA premieres with Abrams, not Kennedy. Kennedy, like Abrams and Lucas, rightly attends both premieres (event photos which can be called up online provide solid proof of this), but seemingly avoids Lucas, and vice versa.


The ice had evidently not melted after Lucas' retraction (although it was winter) because, a few months later, in early 2016, another interview with Kathleen Kennedy is published, in which she seems to take some oblique swipes at Lucas' former leadership of the company she inherited full responsibility of (directly from Lucas). She also seems to denigrate Lucas for placing Leia in her now-iconic bikini slave costume in ROTJ:

(Kennedy)

Lucas was a beloved and oddly vulnerable figure in the minds of his employees. Until he chose Kennedy to replace him, no one who worked for Lucas thought there was ever going to be another Star Wars movie; he was bruised and bitter after Episodes I, II, and III, the so-called prequels, had been widely panned. Lucrative as the franchise and its merchandising continued to be, without a big Star Wars movie in the works, Lucasfilm lacked its primary reason for being. Nobody ever questioned Lucas—in fact, nobody made a move without him. “I think this company, for a long time, was driven by waiting to see what George wanted to do,” Kennedy told me. “I don’t run this company that way. People aren’t sitting around waiting to see what Kathy wants to do.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/02/kathleen-kennedy-hollywood-producer
(Feb 2016)

And further in:

Referring to a notorious scene in Return of the Jedi, I asked Kennedy if she would ever have put Princess Leia in a golden bikini—the famous “slave Leia” costume that is embedded in the collective unconscious of legions of men who were adolescents in the 80s. “With a chain around her neck?,” Kennedy asked, arching an eyebrow and laughing. “I don’t think that would happen.” She quickly added that she didn’t think George Lucas would put her in that bikini today.

(Ibid.)

The most striking thing about Kennedy's calculated bikini judgement (and there are several striking things about it, in my opinion), is that the article provides a return salvo from George's wife, Mellody Hobson:

(Hobson)

Mellody Hobson, Lucas’s wife, said, “George is not apologetic about that bikini,” elaborating that he had said, “The one thing I know are boys.” Hobson went on: “He thinks that was a very important scene. He would probably do the same thing today. He is not apologetic at all.”

(Ibid.)

It is profoundly unusual that it is Lucas' wife responding here and not Lucas himself. She is obviously playing the role of an intermediary in the above. And her words are a very sharp, crystal-clear rebuke of Kennedy's own opining; to say nothing of Kennedy (again) falsely speaking on Lucas' behalf.

Now, of course, Lucas and Kennedy evidently agreed somewhere along the way to "make nice" for the 40th Anniversary "Celebration" event not long ago held in Orlando, appearing on-stage together (however briefly) and embracing for the sake of Carrie Fisher's memorial tribute. But even if they have patched things up, it is hard to overlook the earlier distance that developed between them. One must remember that Kathleen Kennedy was handpicked by Lucas himself to be his successor; and she was grateful or assuring enough to simper that Lucas was her "Yoda" in one of several (multi-part) video recordings that came out to announce the transition of Lucasfilm into the bowels of Disney in October 2012:





Time Index: 2:10

(Kennedy-Lucas)

Kennedy: "I wanted to make sure that I wasn't gonna be entirely on my own because it's important that he at least continue to be a little guardian angel on my shoulder helping me do this."

Lucas: "They're finishing the hologram now."

(laughter)

Kennedy: "My Yoda has to be there."


And all the time in this part warmly smiling at Lucas...


Despite the fact that, three years later, things would be quite different, and they would go through a stage of ignoring each other, and even issuing barbs/jibes (as per the Vanity Fair interview from Feb 2016); with Lucas deflecting by using his own wife to relay his thoughts instead of speaking directly back (but keep the legal aspects of his recently-issued retraction in mind). So I guess Mellody Hobson turned into Kennedy's "Yoda" -- Yoda with his cane.


What the Vanity Fair remarks from Kathleen Kennedy also make pretty clear is that there is a war of aesthetic differences, now, between "Lucasian" Star Wars and "Disneyfied" Star Wars. House Lucas has gone into decline and House Disney is on the ascendant.


And it turns out, in one final little twist from the run-up to TFA's release in 2015, Kathleen Kennedy wasn't the only one who spoke ahead of Lucas, about his feelings toward the new movie after he'd seen it. Co-writer and former TESB/ROTJ co-scribe Lawrence Kasdan also did a "Kathleen Kennedy" and suggested Lucas was happy with the film:

(Kasdan)

"I know it went very well, but I don't want to speak for him, " said Kasdan.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...lly-star-wars-force-awakens-article-1.2457565
(Dec 7th 2015)

Again, Lucas seemed to be singing a slightly less melodious tune when he was asked directly for his thoughts at two separate venues, in addition to the Charlie Rose interview comments. Kasdan's speaking ahead of Lucas, even more than Kennedy doing it, provides a very instructive example where "Rogue One" is concerned.

We would find Gareth Edwards using identical wording (the "I don't want to, but..." fallacy) when first relaying Lucas' alleged response to RO to the world just before it came out for public consumption:

(Edwards)

"Two days ago, we got to show George the movie. We all had a phone call and I got to speak with him yesterday. And I don’t want to put words into his mouth, but I can honestly say that I can die happy now. He really liked the movie, so it meant a lot. To be honest, and no offense to anyone here, it was the most important review to me... and I will take that conversation to the grave. It was a real privilege and his opinion means the world to me."

http://io9.gizmodo.com/george-lucas-likes-rogue-one-more-than-force-awakens-a-1789694908
(Dec 5th 2016)


Almost one year later to the day, Edwards practically mimes Kasdan!!!



He more or less repeated himself a couple of weeks later in another interview:

(Edwards)

"To me, the most important Star Wars aficionado, if I'm honest, is George Lucas," the 41-year-old English filmmaker told RTÉ Entertainment.

"He watched the film about a week ago and I was very nervous. I didn't know when it was going to happen. It was an open invitation and he loved it and he said some very nice things and it was hard not to tear up."

"It wasn't until I heard his response that I realised that was all that I wanted from this film. Whatever it does at the box office, whatever happens, it's just a bonus."

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/20...director-cried-when-helucas-seal-of-approval/
(Dec 19th 2016)




Time Index: 3:12


(The voice of John Knoll as heard through a smartphone in loudspeaker mode)


(John Knoll)


"I got off the phone about a half hour with George Lucas."

(Then there is definitely an edit in the sound/footage)

"The story was really emotional and it all looked great."

(And then another probable edit occurs)

"And just couldn't stop talking about how happy he was."



Note that even the wording -- probable edits/skips/jumps aside -- is fragmented; making it impossible to know precisely what those dislocated fragments refer to.

And then, of course, Lucas' feelings are being conveyed through several layers of convenient filtering:

- Knoll himself (i.e., not George Lucas)
- Knoll generalizing on Lucas' response (no hard specifics)
- Knoll speaking through a phone (and the context is important: at an official function)
- Knoll speaking in edited fragments

That is four layers of filtering which all need to be taken into account. Lucas's real thoughts are conveniently obfuscated through successive geologic layers of remove from the source himself.

And here is where I need to remind the reader of both Kathleen Kennedy and Lawrence Kasdan speaking ahead of Lucas in the case of TFA; and both of them skewing his response in a vanilla-positive direction.

Alas...... I am still not done. There remains yet another twist or sting in the tale/tail:


(Edwards)

“He was really sweet, really funny, a really nice guy, and that was it,” Edwards recalled.

“That was during pre-production. I haven’t seen him since then.”

He has, however, heard of Lucas’s very high opinion of Rogue One.

“We heard from him - we tried to show him the film and we didn’t know when he could see it, we wanted him to see it before its release,” he continued. “He’s a very busy guy so it was an open invitation.

“I was sitting in a meeting that was going on at ILM in San Francisco, where there’s no cell reception.

“Some people do get cell reception, and this guy nudged me and showed me his phone: it was a text off the visual effects supervisor, it said, ‘I’ve just spoken to George Lucas and he loved the movie.’

“I was like, ‘what?’ Holding back the tears! And Kathy Kennedy [producer] cmes in, she’s delayed because he called her, and she was like, ‘I’ve got some good news everyone - he saw it and he liked it!’”

http://www.express.co.uk/entertainm...One-news-director-Gareth-Edwards-George-Lucas
(Mar 16th 2017)



Several things are striking about the above.

Firstly, it is a newer set of anecdotal recollecting (but obviously still describing fairly recent events), several months after RO came out.

Second, in his earlier remarks in December 2016, Gareth Edwards made it seem as if he might have sat down and seen the movie with Lucas, and then subsequently had a longer chat with him:

Dec 5th 2016: "Two days ago, we got to show George the movie. We all had a phone call and I got to speak with him yesterday. And I don’t want to put words into his mouth, but I can honestly say that I can die happy now. He really liked the movie, so it meant a lot."

Mar 16th 2017: "“Some people do get cell reception, and this guy nudged me and showed me his phone: it was a text off the visual effects supervisor, it said, ‘I’ve just spoken to George Lucas and he loved the movie.’ I was like, ‘what?’ Holding back the tears! And Kathy Kennedy [producer] cmes in, she’s delayed because he called her, and she was like, ‘I’ve got some good news everyone - he saw it and he liked it!’”

But the newer remarks (the fuller set) make it plain that Edwards and Lucas didn't meet after pre-production. Lucas watched the film separately and then his opinion was communicated BY TEXT MESSAGE of all things. Subsequently, Kathleen Kennedy entered the room at ILM in San Francisco, and pulled her TFA stunt a second time: "He liked it!"

What is more, in the above, Edwards says the text was "off the visual effects supervisor". In addition to conceiving the story, John Knoll was also an Executive Producer on RO, and yep, you guessed it, the visual effects supervisor: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3748528/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

So let's get this straight. John Knoll twice relayed George Lucas' alleged feelings toward the film to Edwards and crew; first by text (as above) and later via an actual phone call placed on loudspeaker (as in "The Star Wars Show" clip provided). Between these two events, if Edwards' claim can be trusted, he spoke directly with Lucas, who flattered him with praise. But, crucially, Edwards has at least admitted he hasn't been in Lucas' company since pre-production on the film.

Moreover, Kathleen Kennedy again seemed to put a bow on Lucas' supposed opinion by enthusiastically proclaiming, "He liked it!" Which by itself reads as suspicious in light of her remarks to the press regarding TFA and Lucas' opinion of it in 2015 (along with Lawrence Kasdan).
The basic posture to take at Disney/Lucasfilm is clearly: Happy-Happy-Happy, everything's great, everything's perfectly fine, everyone is wonderful, everyone is excited, etc., etc.

Now, with all of that said, all of that mountain of quotes and analysis out of the way...........


Could Lucas actually have enjoyed "Rogue One" and been sincere in what he supposedly expressed of his feelings toward it?

Watto: "Sure! Absolutely!"

But........

It seems fair, in my opinion, to remain dubious. There is already too much water under the bridge between Lucas and Kennedy/Disney/Lucasfilm for me to really trust them on any point ever again.

And bizarrely...... There is still another knot in the carpet to unravel.

In March 2016, Gareth Edwards held a "Reddit" AMA ("Ask Me Anything") session.

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/com..._of_rogue_one_a_star/?st=j09plp2s&sh=084f36eb



A user asks him about Lucas' involvement and his opinion of the film and Edwards answers:


(Edwards)

Sjgolf891 519 points 1 month ago
Could you tell us a bit about what George Lucas said to you after seeing Rogue One? And did you meet with him at all before filming?

[–]Gareth_Edwards 1345 points 1 month ago
He came to visit Pinewood before we started filming.... to take the pressure off us, I had posters in my room of the previous 'Star Wars spinoffs' - 'Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure' and the 'Star Wars Holiday Special'... my main goal when he came in was to try and stop him seeing these... my second goal was him liking the film.

Note that Edwards entirely sidesteps the first and more prominent and pertinent question. Perhaps he got sidetracked, but nowhere else does he answer such a question in the whole session (although he doesn't give many answers).

He is also asked what his own response to Lucas' response was. He answers that, but only repeats what he said in Dec 2016:


–]Mr_Bedhead 1191 points 1 month ago
Loved Rogue One and how bold it was. Couple questions
How did it feel knowing that George Lucas approved and really enjoyed your adaptation of the star wars universe.
Do you plan on doing any more sci-fi in the future, or are you soon going to be branching out on more genres?

[–]Gareth_Edwards 1528 points 1 month ago
The biggest relief in the world. George Lucas is GOD. Without him, no of this would exist. I would have traded his positive review for everyone else in the world if I'm honest.
I definitely want to do other genres, but if I had to be trapped in one, scifi would be it!



Someone else asks him what his favourite Star Wars movie is. This is where Edwards -- in true Disney/LFL style -- lobs a passive-aggressive grenade at the PT:



BenClou 241 points 1 month ago
What's your favorite Star Wars movie, besides Rogue One?

[–]Gareth_Edwards 706 points 1 month ago
My favorite is not Rogue One, but thanks for assuming it might be, my order would be:
1. A New Hope
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Return of the Jedi



He was, of course, asked to name his favourite, but he chooses to list three: all three OT movies. Not one word about the prequels there or anywhere else in the session from Edwards.


Furthermore, in RO itself, there is a rather puzzling "lapse" in convention: Mustafar, a prequel planet, is the only planet not to be named on-screen.


A strange, off-putting detail that, in my view, along with Edwards obvious little snubbing of the prequels in his Reddit session, tossed in almost to the point where it can be entirely missed.



**********************




I therefore come close to drawing a very disturbing and cosmically unsettling conclusion:



Are the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy and all committed fans of the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy actually being carefully gaslighted and trolled by Disney/Lucasfilm; or, at the least, their very obvious "fanboy" directors and subsequent PR mechanism?


I now take an even darker and dimmer view of Vader slaughtering the rebel soldiers at the forced climax of "Rogue One". It is fairly plain, in my opinion, that the film takes a falsely sympathetic view of Anakin's fate on Mustafar (a planet it doesn't even do the decency to name); and is clearly in much more of a haste to imply that the "real" Darth Vader could only ever be the guy that stops moping in his bacta tank, puts the suit on, chokes and intimidates fellow Imperial officers, and demonically slays hopelessly-underpowered enemies with no means of escape.


One could perhaps present a counter argument, though: "Rogue One" might actually be a moody, surly, rip-roaring satire of prequel bashing, leaving Mustafar unnamed and giving only a teasing glimpse of a steamy Anakin Skywalker erotically having the liquid drained from his medical cubicle (like a kind of low-rent soft-porn parody) in order to spoof the main fanbase's unreconstructed homophilic fascination with Vader as a tanked-up machine rather than as a vulnerable and volatile young man with a complex personality and an embarrassing love-crush. Instead of sensually stroking his lover's back and whining about sand at a lake country, Darth Vader is back to issuing menacing puns and flinging male bodies around with the Force in masculine industrial facilities.


And if Lucas does bear a degree of affection for "Rogue One" and whatever was accomplished (he is, after all, a filmmaker himself), not only does this not imply full-blown approval (especially when he has said NOTHING about the film himself; but dubiously had his supposed feelings re-conveyed in fragmented form), but it seems the feeling from Gareth Edwards isn't exactly mutual toward the prequels and what Lucas deliberately contrived to avoid depicting: Vader as savage, unrelenting, smooth-moving slayer figure. Least of all for a film's opportunistic second action climax.


Darn. I really didn't want to do this, but I guess it was inevitable this thread would eventually get me there.

 

Cryogenic

If I were to create a response, it would take me specifically 72 hours to analyze, think and make of my opinion.

But hot damn Cryogenic(or is it "cold damn?") this was probably one of the most elementally, virtuous post I have read from you. And over the years, I've read a lot. I actually have to sit down and think on everything you laid down on the table...

 

Correct. In fact here is John Milius explaining GL's mindset back when he was making Star Wars. Milius is one of his closest friends. He was even given a % of the gross from ANH due to the support he gave his pal George.

Maybe, maybe not. Let's not confuse someone's public persona with their real selves. He could bang on about Joseph Campbell & Jungian archetypes all day, while at the same time having millions of JarJar lunchboxes made, along with every corporate promotional deal under the sun. I think he struck a pretty even balance between the craft of movie making & his corporate interests. Nothing wrong with that.

MOD EDIT: Bait

 

To be very clear... I actually ADMIRE Lucas's business skills. He was a brilliant marketer and merchandiser. I don't say this to run him down at all.

Also - saying your favorite Star Wars movies are the OT movies isn't taking a shot at anyone.

This:

Is insane paranoid nonsense. It's also like the definition of an inferiority complex.

This is only completely insane... like I seriously hope you don't believe stuff like this and are being tongue in cheek. I mean homophobic fascination? That's seriously immature garbage.

 

Thank you. Took a while to get posted.

Don't ever try having 70 tabs open at once and attempting to go between them, kids.

The very fact you're randomly providing that link proves that you didn't really read it; much less learn anything.

I included that exact same recording as both an embedded video link and a time stamp taking a reader to that very part directly underneath.

I'll take the rest of what you say under advisement. Lucas may be out of the frame, but his saga is forever.

 

Learn anything?? It's the same tinpot conspiracy theorizing that we saw a few weeks ago. That contributed to the Future Content thread being locked. Your theories require either Lucas being fake & disingenuous, or labeling Knoll a liar. Being prepared to insinuate either just to push a personal agenda is pretty sad IMO.

 

You know full well why that was locked. It was because pro-Disney/anti-PT fans -- in a thread for Prequel Fans to discuss new content -- were being captious and snide to those armed with facts and robust arguments.

Kind of as Lucas has tried to say in Star Wars: History repeats...

 

Lots of quotes. I didn't find the one from Lucas where he said the R1 Vader hallway scene was something he wouldn't have done, let alone hated it and found it at odds with Vader's personality he set up. And I'm sure if Lucas (or his wife) said it, it would have been there. But of course, we can't trust the word of Lucas as presented by both sides of this debate now.

Sounds more like your beef is with Kennedy than Disney. I have some thoughts on that, but we are talking about the R1 hallway scene. So that's probably a tangent too far. (No. I'm not inferring sexism on your part.)

The jabs at the prequel you offered were "not the jabs you're looking for." It seemed pretty clear why Mustafar was left off the titling sequence. If anything, it elevated Mustafar. And picking your favorite SW movie is actually very difficult. ANH-ESB-RotJ really feel like one 6+ hour movie. You can love ESB, but also be aware that part of your love cannot be separated from the set up and conclusion. The whole thing is one 12+ hour movie, but obviously AotC has more story tie-ins to TPM-RotS than the OT. There's not much to say about Mace and Qui-Gon in the OT (or Solo in the PT).

He didn't acknowledge the awkward love crush of Anakin gone wrong? Should he have made it so Leia was waving out the window as they sped away to temporary freedom. Should Vader have, upon seeing Leia, said "Padme? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" Now that's dumbing it down. And the "NOOO" Vader is very much at odds with the OT Vader that's persona included many scenes of silent introspection that conveyed a myriad of emotion despite the fact that you were literally looking at a face devoid of the ability to emote. Maybe he had a tear behind that helmet in that and all the OT scenes.

But the reality is that post was talking about the relationships and politics of the Star Wars "crew", which isn't Star Wars. It isn't even plot or character talk of *any* movie.

This all circles back to my very first thoughts of posting in this thread

This just feels like Prequel era fans have saved up a bunch of resentment for the response to the PT and are now mimicking the hate they originally denounced. PT haters actually did just this. Brought up a bunch of quotes (usually Lucas against Lucas) to explain why the PT *sucked*.

The closest thing to a "fact" based argument is comparing the movement of Vader R1 to Vader ANH, which only really relies on the OB1 duel, which has also been countered. Unfortunately, the facts bear out that Lucas has a lot to do with that inconsistency. That's not a jab at Lucas. That's just a fact. And as a Star Wars fan, I've found a way to reconcile the OB1 duel that had a problem with the PT long before this supposed R1 problem.

That doesn't mean people can't compare the movies or have problems with any of the movies or even eras. I have quite the reservoir of concern for what the ST has set up and where it is going. Some of TFA is brilliant. Some of TFA has me feeling the way you feel about the R1 hallway scene. Most of it can be reconciled (or confirmed) by the next two Saga movies.

 

Cryogenic

As always, a staunch, well thought out and well written defense of your points and thoughts...

I gave my personal thoughts about this issue earlier in this thread. I don't think that Lucas would see the scene with Vader in Rogue One as any kind of insult, or slight against his vision. He might comment about how the scene may fulfill some fans dreams of the bad ass Vader, however, I think the key to that scene not being some over the top fan service is the scenes on Mustafar. A call back to his past, which is Anakin Skywalker, and a scene reminding us that he is a broken man. If the only time we see Vader is at the end, where he goes all out on the Rebels, than I might be more inclined to believe that the movie goes to far with Vader in giving into murder porn.

With that said, I can and do understand where people such as Cryogenic are coming from with their views.

MOD EDIT: Bait

Does Lucas love Rogue One? maybe he does, but, to pretend that he wouldn't have criticisms of the movie is, once again repeating myself, making him a one dimensional person to suit your purpose and your argument. Which is the exact thing you are chsatising others for in this thread.

For people that follow Lucas, and read, watch, listen to what he has to say, we can take things that he has talked about in the past, and apply them to his new role, or lack there of, with Star Wars.

For example, we know that Lucas doesn't care for critics. There are plenty of quotes where Lucas expresses these feelings. In fact, in the movie Willow, the bad guy General Kael was named after film critic Pauline Kael, and rumor has it the two headed dragon, Sispert was named after film critics Siskel and Ebert. Also, Lucas has talked many times of the criticisms of the fans towards the PT, to the point where he talked about how it partly influenced his retirement and sale to Disney.

The point of this? That Lucas doesn't like critics that criticize art, so he is not about to criticize another artists work! He's not going to come out and say, I love Rogue One, but.. and than go on to criticize the work. So for people to say that there aren't any examples of Lucas saying he doesn't like the Vader scene, well you're right, but again, the chances of ever hearing Lucas actually criticize the actual movie are few and far between. He's just not that kind of guy.

That is why when asked if he liked TFA he deflects his answer. During the Rose interview, Lucas isn't criticizing Abrams or the actual movie, he is criticizing corporate influence in TFA and what Disney told him they were going to do with TFA.

Lucas is not one dimensional, to pretend that just because he says he loves the movie over all, and that's all there is to it, that no other discussion can be had, is a convenient stance to take to try and quiet others opinions.

There is a good chance that we will never find out what Lucas truly thinks about TFA, R1, TLJ etc etc... However, again, to pretend that people can't take what Lucas has said about the character of Vader, and apply it to what is seen in R1, shows that people would rather try and shut people up than listen to a different opinion. So when people like Cryogenic express their opinion that Lucas might not like the R1 vader seen, it's based on knowing what Lucas has said in the past about Vader, such as:


“You learn that Darth Vader isn’t this monster,” Lucas says. “He’s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he’s trapped. He’s a sad, pathetic character, not an evil big monster. I mean, he’s a monster in that he’s turned to the Dark Side and he’s serving a bad master and he’s into power and he’s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he’s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, ‘I know there’s still good in you. There’s good in you, I can sense it.’ Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he’s a monster, does he redeem himself.”

Lucas has commented time and again about the oddity that audiences love the bad guys. That bad guys always have the cool ships and cool costumes. How children liked Vader because he was a symbol of power, which, children like power because they feel powerless in the face of their parents, teachers, adults etc etc.

So it is entirely possible Lucas would not like the scene of Vader in R1 because it further glamorizes Vader, and it's not the message Lucas would want to continue to build and send to kids that watch the movies.

It's rather tiring that some want to try and curb the discussion away from things they don't like, and in doing so want to try and make a human some one dimensional robot that only means one thing when they say something because it suits their position to do so. I might not agree with Cryogenic on all of his opinions, but, I can certainly understand why he feels the way he does, and certainly accept that he might be right.

More Lucas Quotes:

More great insight:

 

People trying to claim that leaving out the name Mustafar was a dig at the Prequels. Please! For one thing, it wasn't the only world that wasn't named in the movie. Secondly, it was clearly to not tip off fans about what they were about to see. It was immediately confirmed as Mustafar & has been labelled as such in the various tie-in books.

Exactly. The rush Vader was in during that situation in R1 is the very point. He was urgently trying to prevent the plans from being taken away. That's why his actions made perfect sense. He wasn't slicing through those Rebels for kicks. They were blocking his path to get to the plans. They also fired the first shot btw. Contrast that scenario with the one at the beginning of ANH. Vader had captured the Rebel ship & has it secured in his cargo bay. There isn't the same urgency. He can let his troops go ahead & board the ship & take out any resistance before he boards himself. In both cases his actions make perfect sense. Back to R1, it's interesting to keep in mind the "point of view" principle when viewing that scene. From Vader's pov, these criminals were complicit in the theft of government property. Also the murder of dozens if not hundreds of Imperial troops & staff. As well as a fortune in ships & equipment. So he boards the Rebel ship to retrieve the stolen property. Tracks it down & is confronted by a bunch of crooks. They're armed. He ignites his lightsaber from a distance. They fire at him & he then takes them out on the way to retrieve the Empire's own plans that had been stolen. So how much of an "evil" act was it? They were armed rebels who'd began firing at him. They were also in the way of his mission. Killing an unarmed defenseless officer over a simple mistake is far more evil if you ask me.

mikeximus when it comes to GL's opinion of R1 all we know is what's been relayed via John Knoll. There's no reason to doubt that, unless people can establish a history of dishonesty from that person. As for the Vader scene, there's also no reason to think that GL had a problem with it. Particularly given it's depicting a Darth Vader during his evil murderous period right before ANH. The whole point of the PT was to show that Vader wasn't always the "monster" that we saw in the OT. It accomplished that. Showing an additional nasty deed during the OT era doesn't detract in any way from that backstory. Esp when all movies are watched in order. In fact it might add to it. When we see innocent little Anie in TPM, some viewers may think of that impactful scene in R1. It was that contrast that Lucas was going for. The disbelief that someone so young & nice could become so evil. Anything that adds to the evil persona that Anakin becomes should only make his fall all the more tragic. So I can't imagine a single reason for any objection from Lucas. As others have also pointed out, the scene is not all that different from Anakin/Vader killing the Separatist leaders in RotS. Except that they were useless unarmed bureaucrats, which probably makes it far worse. The Rebels in R1 were armed, were firing at Vader & were stealing Imperial property. In fact if you watch the scene below it's obvious that he would've been dead himself had he not fought back. Or he would've needed to stand there indefinitely protecting himself by deflecting blaster bolts into the walls, trying carefully not to injure the poor rebel thieves.

​

As a side note, IMO the reaction to this perfectly illustrates why humans are so much better than droids as mook soldiers. Bcs people actually care about the violence. It matters. Look at the above scene & replace the soldiers with battledroids. Looks like any scene during the Prequels. Does anyone care about that violence? Does it have any emotional impact? Are those scenes debated? Nope.

 

But we didn't set the standard that the criticism of R1's hallway scene was Lucas based, as opposed to our own personal enjoyment of the movie on both an entertainment and analytical level. That standard was set by the thread title and first page of posts, so that is where the burden is found.

And now we literally have a game of standing by quotes, except when we don't. Saying that one side can extrapolate a quote that is anything but implicit (and sometimes contradictory), but the other side cannot.

We aren't shutting down conversation. We are addressing the parameters set by others. Engaging, if you will. And those parameter have become convoluted as anything but a consensus has been reached on the anti-R1 side of the conversation. Darth Nerdling isn't really saying what Cryogenic is saying. DN seems to be saying "works in R1, but wouldn't in RotS" Cryo is saying it works nowhere in the SW films. That it is pure garbage meant for people that just can't appreciate artistic depth. It's almost as if some equation has been set up that R1 appreciation = Lucas hate and therefore the only way to show Lucas appreciation is to show R1 hate. That's not depth. That's simplistic.

Great observation.

Also, if you want to see Anakin's (and the Jedi's) true fear of the afterlife

Spoiler

 

edit: combined posts