ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

@Birkendoc I always thought that, in order to atone, the sacrifice must be meaningful, and that his own life mattered the most to him. Your solution is the hardest: his life and his powers on a leap of faith and in the complete service of someone else than himself.
And showing the Han Solo's heart he stabbed with his sword.

I'd love to see that.

 

He will eventually die. He will have a bullseye on his back from both people with ties to the Resistance, other First Order sympathizers who’ll see his final acts in IX as betrayal to the FO that could have been, and future Dark siders who’ll rise & consider him a possible threat.

He will have a death sentence from all 3. Can he atone and help some others in the galaxy who need it before any of these people catch up to him? That’s what I’m interested in finding out.

 

The issue with Kylo helping other people is making the assumption that the dark side is some sort of venom or poison that can be extracted and all of a sudden that person is perfectly fine. It's not.

Who is to say Kylo will not have dark side tendencies even if he does one good deed?

 

Of course Kylo was once a decent kid, though I’m not particularly pleased as a viewer that thus far they’ve avoided showing us flashbacks of him as such.

I believe that the canon has hinted at the dark side - in its present state - has some degree of “compulsive” quality about it, but if so, I wish this had been directed indicated by Kylo’s behavior.

I don’t think there’s some sort of “curse” on the family. Neither Luke nor Leia became dark siders.

I expect to feel more charitable towards Kylo/Ben after 9, but atm I don’t feel that as a viewer I have thus far been shown enough reason to feel that way at present.

 

I think the dark side is unlike anything in other stories and unlike anything IRL, at least when taken literally within the Star Wars fictional universe. Star Wars seems to show a huge difference between Anakin and Darth Vader. I think this is based in part on maybe simplified Jungian principles regarding the shadow self. Really, the shadow self contains good and bad qualities--it merely contains all the qualities that one doesn't want to accept in themselves or is ashamed by, and thus those qualities of self are rejected, denied, or suppressed. The objective is to find all of these qualities and integrate them into consciousness and often many of them aren't entirely "bad" even if they have all been judged to be "bad" by the self.

It seems in Star Wars, if Yoda's TCW journey to confront his own shadow is any indication, that the shadow self is evil. All of its qualities are evil and of the dark side. Everyone has this dark self inside them and the failure of the PT Jedi was in that they didn't see it at all in themselves. In order to find Force immortality, Yoda must confront his evil side and I guess defeat it. At first when impish mean Yoda appears to him, he doesn't even recognize it as himself. The first step he has to take is see how it IS part of himself, and then of course he seems to "destroy" it. I think Jung and Bly seem to be more about the goal with the shadow is to integrate or "eat" it, but then the shadow according to them isn't really "evil you" like it is in Star Wars.

Perhaps the concept of the anti-self is better than the shadow for this? The anti-self is always trying to sabotage everything you do, it twists things by resentment, it is the voice telling you you're not good enough, or kind enough, or strong enough, or whatever.

Anyway, the Force is the other matter. When Anakin falls to the dark side fully, he becomes an unimaginable monster. I personally think that how powerful one is with the Force plays into how far down one can fall. The Force is defined as something that controls your actions and obeys your commands. Once you start down the dark path, forever does it dominate your destiny, consume you it will. Anakin's fall shows how completely consumed he is by the dark side. He becomes an instrument of the dark side, of evil. It is an actual *force* that he has been taken by.

Anakin's redemption is wherein the spark of light that is still in him manages to ignite in a flurry, burning away the darkness, and he manages to in a single moment free himself entirely of the dark side. When he dies, he becomes a Force ghost because that light self (Anakin) is now the only thing that is left. Darth Vader has been destroyed.

So when talking about Ben vs. Kylo Ren, it is a similar thing. Kylo Ren can be destroyed in a way in which Ben is freed. If it's more that Kylo Ren does one good deed (like help Rey against Snoke, for instance), that is not the same thing as redemption. Just like how when Anakin did his horribly evil deed of slaughtering all the Sand People, it wasn't the same thing as falling entirely to the dark side. It was a single step on his path to the Dark Side. And the Dark Side owned him more after that.

I can't regard these Force characters as I do real life bad people. It's an entirely different universe they operate in. This universe is meant to represent the struggles of people in real life (it blows it to epic proportions), but it is not literal to real life, at all.

IIRC the book Dark Disciple kind of covered the fall to the dark side and return from it in a more gradated way that is more full of this uncertainty (regarding Vos) of is he on the dark side really? Is he back on the good side really? How do you know? And Vos confesses that he didn't even know. Ventress also counsels Vos on how easy it is to be consumed by the Dark Side and that is something that she wants to avoid (this is fitting of Ventress as I think she's always been a lighter villain who crosses into being an anti-hero even, and the Nightsisters have their own practice WRT the dark side which seems to involve not being fully consumed - hanging on the edge).

For Anakin, the proof is easy as if he were still on the Dark Side, he can't be a Force ghost. (Naturally future Star Wars could change this if ever Force ghosts are shown to be more complex than we ever knew!)

ETA: Luke's OT journey I feel also covers this stuff in that Luke gets a glimpse at his shadow/evil potential in the Dark Side cave in ESB. If he strikes his enemy down with anger and hate, he becomes his enemy. In ROTJ at the end is when he finally sees that within himself there is an "evil self" and "evil potential" and he defeats it by throwing away his lightsaber. The more he gives into hate, the stronger that self becomes, and that is what happened to his father. He sees his true enemy is not Vader or the Emperor, but it is inside himself - the dark side inside himself. This is like the concept of the Satan--this evil in everyone--this corruption that is a poison in all people.

 

The FO are fascist space Nazis. How and why and where did pointing this out become controversial and ripe for nitpicking? It’s not even subtle. Just look at any basic definition of “fascism,” whether on Wikipedia, dictionary.com or Miriam Webster.

Edit - oh I get it. Imperialist dictator sounds nicer, per this article. http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-fascism-and-imperialism/

But that doesn’t describe the FO.

 

I like how you laid this out

There are a couple of things that have made me doubt that the dark side was *always* inherently evil and corrupting.

One is a statement made by an ancient, cocooned being in the LoLS story “Big Inside” that notes that “there is a rot in the Mist.” That suggests something unnatural affecting the Force. The other is the “dark side” caves, especially the one on Achoo. The cave isn’t “evil.” In fact, the cave is very strongly symbolically tied to Lew’el and the Tide philosophy, neither of which are in the least bit “evil.”

And yet, as you can see, I’m referencing the EU. If I’m correct, and if this lore is significant, then I expect it will be addressed somehow in Ep 9.

 

@JoJoPenelli - actually I agree with you I think. When Rey is meditating on Ahch-to it is on a Force in balance. She sees the dark side elements - death, decay, violence, cold, etc. But these are all in balance with the light side elements (birth of new life, warmth, and um I forget all of it). I call this balance the "state of nature." But in this balance there is no room for Sith Lords - they are these abominations of the dark side. So to me, the question of if the dark side itself is evil, or if evil is more the result of one only emphasizing all the dark side qualities without those being balanced out by the light, is a question. Rey uses the dark side, but within her it is sufficiently balanced with the light side and she is in line with the "state of nature." This is good (rather than evil). Kylo OTOH is evil because he emphasizes the dark side without the light. Anyway, I am not sure that it's possible to fully clear up these concepts? I wonder if there's some room for them to be muddled that goes well with the Force being "mysterious" or "ineffable"?

I remember RJ described the dark side as being about "holding onto what is yours." It is this attachment and selfish grasping. Everyone has qualities of holding onto what is theirs, but if those qualities are not balanced out by their opposites, then one gets one of these dark side users and their quest for power.

 

I strongly consider Leia being tortured by Vader, having a son who killed his father, and Luke for having a father who chopped his hand off to be pretty cursed.

 

Maybe Vader is a curse on the entire family. Luke and Leia have had to deal with Vader and his legacy (the destruction he brought and all the suffering he caused and all the evil he perpetuated) their entire lives. "There is no escape," as Vader would say.

Luke and Leia are brought up from the beginning to deal with Vader. They do not get to be innocent children living innocent lives, like Luke's dream about if he'd never left Tatooine at the beginning of TLJ novelization (though I mean that dream seemed pretty nightmarish as the Empire was still there). They both have to fight Vader and the Empire, that is their destiny.

Even after Vader is gone, so much of the galaxy is still enslaved by him in spirit. The Senate erupts in hatred when they find out Leia is Vader's biological daughter and they oust her. He and the Empire have harmed too many. They want blood and/or they fear that Leia must secretly be evil too.

Ben Solo is also ensnared by Grandpa's legacy.

Many in the galaxy idolized Vader after he was gone - he inspires more evil even though he's dead, either in the form of those who idolize him or in the form of those poisoned by hatred or fear because of what he and the Empire did to them or their worlds or their loved ones.

Etc.

 

That's sort of how I see it.

Anakin was a cursed-born pauper who married a Queen. They had twins, a boy and a girl. One became a farmer, the other a Princess. The farmer led a tragic life after he turned 19 and his twin sister fell for a smuggler and they bore a son who carried the curse of Vader from within her womb. The cursed Prince, now destined to follow in his grandfather's footsteps by happenstance meets a young woman with a pure light that draws him in, making him forget the darkness if only for awhile. The curse is strong however and pits him against the girl who could break its spell with her spark of hope. Will she succeed?

 

That’s a different sort of “curse.” The kind you cited - if I understood you correctly - implies inevitabity.

I like how you put this.

How is the legacy resolved? Vader was redeemed, but the legacy remained. Why?

Perhaps the Skywalkers are special somehow. Snoke thought so. Luke’s “mighty Skywalker blood” line implied that what he found in his travels suggested that, too. Perhaps that will end up being the key to all this.

 

What I meant was nothing good lasted at all for any Skywalker thus far.

 

I can see the fairytale of the girl who breaks the spell - not only at the epicenter (this family and Ben Solo), but the spell hanging over the galaxy itself. The galaxy so far is set on repeat it seems. Empire 1.0 is gone, but oh now look, Empire 2.0. Does it EVER end? So yes Rey, breaker of spells, on the micro and macro level makes sense to me.

I also find all of this funny regarding the so-called "legacy saber" since this is the lightsaber Anakin wielded when he became Darth Vader. It's kind of a symbol of a curse more than anything else. Though of course the Kyber crystal is aligned to the light still as all Kyber crystals are innately.

 

That's how I've been viewing the ST. That's why I'm enjoying it so much despite a few things I liked better in fanfiction.

It's done good and bad depending on the hand wielding it. Anakin did bad things, Luke did good. Both Rey and Kylo used it for good.

 

Obj-Wan is the Jedi who had it longest of all.

 

Once again, used for good. Only Vader used it for evil.

Edit: Han and Finn too. Both to save a life though they are not Jedi.

 

I guess it depends on what one means by legacy - as a family heirloom I think its significance is that it was the lightsaber Anakin wielded in the "end days." And it was his when he turned. Luke trained with it, but lost it with his hand in ESB, by Vader.

If it represents more of a Star Wars legacy including everyone who ever used it and a tally of how many good vs. how many evil deeds it was used for, that is something else.

 

Vader still is the only one to use it to slaughter children. Kylo used it to save Rey, and kill his abuser. I think Anakin being the real curse makes the most sense now once you look at the tally. I never thought Rey was a Skywalker because Han and Finn used it too. It's not a lightsaber used by the Skywalker bloodline, but a lightsaber that helped play a major part in the Skywalker saga. However based on how it was used by everyone, no one is even close to Vader.

 

I never thought it meant Rey was a Skywalker either. I thought Rey was using the "Skywalker legacy saber" but now it is her saber and it doesn't really matter whose it was before. It's hers because it called her and um the wand chooses the wizard and all that. But I just always found its significance as "legacy saber" especially as pertaining to the Skywalker family amusing. As Rey's lightsaber I guess I don't see it as the legacy saber anymore exactly, it's more about Rey. But I guess this depends on what "legacy" means. I think that Rey is free of the Skywalker legacy (it can't burden her as it does the Skywalkers) is almost a necessity.

 

I think Maz's words were severely taken out of context, as well as Luke's in the trailer. "The Force is strong in my family. My father had it, I have it, my sister has it. You have that power too" I mean come on, if that's not baiting, then it's just bad PR. I knew he was excluding her as a Skywalker, but so many people took it literally and headcanons were crushed in TLJ to the point of severe denial even now by a few people on places like Reddit.

 

I guess the ST covers this question of its meaning itself. In the novelization, Kylo takes the saber when she arrives on the Supremacy saying it is his. She asks why then did it call her (and not him)? I don't recall him having a good rebuttal. Then later they of course both try to take it and it splits in two.

Regarding "you have that power too" it's really more ominous in the ST. The Skywalker power is not seen as what it was in the OT - as a good thing that will save the galaxy. The Skywalker power is what has wrecked the galaxy (in part). Luke does not look at his family's mighty Skywalker blood as a good thing really. He does not treat Rey as a super special person either because she is super strong in the Force. There's definitely more of a this is a blessing or a curse feeling.

"You have that power too" is in a way, a frightening statement.

 

I'd laugh if it's because Kylo isn't a true FS and Snoke did something to him to make him one, so it's rejecting him.

 

Reminds me of the Luke RotJ voiceover in that TFA trailer. The one Mark recorded an “old Luke” echo for.