ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

@AhsokaSolo

I don’t remember much of Garden State beyond the Shins soundtrack but what I do recall of it certainly seemed to have some aspects of that for sure. She was written to be eccentric and her wild ways of life were meant to contrast his.

The classic manic pixie dream girl always represents a wild side of how life should be lived opposite the by reserved, complacent guy who hasn’t embraced his wild side. This scene is textbook.



That’s why I think it’s likely closer to a different trope for Rey since it’s presented closer to Rey being reserved and pure and good and not embracing her own wild side fully opposite Kylo Ren’s monster and care free offer to rule the galaxy and do whatever they want that she turns down.

 

I don't have time for a detailed response as I'm leaving soon but some of it is in my posts above about Rey's loneliness, abandonment, suddenly discovering her powers, lack of relationship experience, youth all contributing to some unwise impulses and decisions in TLJ. One quick thing, I believe it was made it very clear that Rey did know all along about her parents, but had been in denial..

Maz in TFA: "I see your eyes. You already know the truth." [emphasis mine]

Kylo in TLJ: "Do you want to know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known?" [emphasis mine]

They are both saying essentially the same thing. She already knows but has been in denial. She repressed the knowledge to give herself a reason to go on. Maz saw that in Rey's eyes. Kylo saw it when their hands touched.

 

The problem with Rey in TFA is that she's utterly defined by her longing for her lost parents and doesn't make a single major choice that actively drives the story until the very end of the movie, and even then it's because she's in a situation where she'll literally die if she doesn't. Up until then she's simply bandied about from location to location by external events beyond her control, because she doesn't actually have any investment in the conflict and thus would have no other reasons for participating in the action. She's very lacking in agency as a character in that movie. She's somewhat like Amidala in The Phantom Menace in that regard, except Amidala is more a reactive protagonist than she is simply passive, since Amidala at least possesses a clear goal which is connected to the film's central conflict--and Lucas also knew enough about adventure movie storytelling to make the more active Qui-Gon Jinn the focal character in order to compensate for Amidala's reactiveness until she finally comes into her own in the third act.

e: And I have to point out that it works all the more beautifully since Amidala's shift into active decision-making actually comes in direct conflict with the heretofore active Qui-Gon Jinn, who for the first time now suggests inaction. It's a very powerful inversion which amplifies the significance of Amidala's newfound resolution and boldness.

 

I totally agree that Rey lacks agency in TFA. It’s one of my top criticisms of that movie. Even despite her lack of agency and the fact that she’s basically defined by mystery instead of real characterization, she still manages to have an emotional arc in that movie, which plays out as the central story of that movie.

 

THANK YOU!

This is spot on.

All we really know about Rey from TFA is her parental issues, that she can fight, fix, and fly, and that her tough exterior moments are fleeting and that she’s pretty naive, gullible & forms bonds quickly with people. Oddly enough, some of these traits are consistent with real, observed traits in people that have abandonment issues but it isn’t really until VIII until we start getting more into what she wants (a Force user to show her how to use the Force and what to do with it & to bring a hero back to the Resistance that Leia would want back). VIII shows her scavenging books, keeping secrets from both Luke and Ben, and shows a sexual side that longed for connection with another Force user, shows that she would have preferred Luke be the one to come back and be the hero if he’d wanted to, shows her bravery and stubbornness when going to face Snoke, and shows her thinking about her side first when the final guard fell. It revealed more character agency for her than TFA did and shower her actively making choices less for her own self-defence but for the betterment of others and applying her powers to save the lives of others.

In TFA, as you cited, she largely moved from set piece to set piece less because she made choices to but more because she was swept up in adventure or simply running to escape or fighting to survive.

The contrast in agency and active decision-making and heroic moments for others between Luke in ANH and Rey in TFA are some of the biggest differences in those movies.

That gap in those areas between Luke and Rey surprisingly decreases in their next films, and that has less to do with VIII than it does just how little of that there was for her in TFA. She had a higher screen time ratio in TFA but seemed to be making less choices and has less agency once the adventure started and she was away from Jakku.

 

Rey’s lack of agency continued in TLJ. She hardly made any choices. Her one big choice in TFA was going to Luke at the end. Her really only choice in TLJ was running off to Kylo, but she was manipulated to do that after being forced in a situation with Kylo she had no agency in over and over.

It’s not just Luke in ANH that you can contrast Rey’s total lack of agency with. Luke in ESB applies as well. He ditches the Rebellion to go on a personal quest. He trains to be a Jedi like his father before him because that’s what he wants to be in his life. He leaves his master against his master’s advice. He chooses possible death over joining his father. Right and left Luke controls the narrative of ESB in a way that Rey never does in TLJ.

Begging Luke to do something because she doesn’t want to isn’t agency. Luke wants to become a Jedi and be part of the fight in ESB. Rey just wants someone to tell her what to do. Rey refuses to control her own story in TLJ and begs someone else to grant her purpose. Rey doesn’t ever even state affirmatively that she wants to be a Jedi in TLJ. She just kind of vaguely wants help.

Meanwhile, her story in TLJ undermines the little growth she had in TFA. She found belonging in TFA, she put her family behind her, and she joined the Resistance. These firm choices from the end of TFA are all basically erased in TLJ. She betrays the Resistance, and she’s again delusional about her family and lonely.

In the end, she has no impact on Kylo besides Kylo using her to steal the throne. Snoke didn’t care about her. She has no impact on Luke, who changes his mind because of Yoda. She is absent from the main climax of the film, merely relegated to reacting to the battle at the end trying to help but not leading. She is definitely just along for the ride in TLJ.

 

Teehee, I think the OT3 are really liekable but I see what you mean when you describe them as "meanies" in comparism. Even early Luke had some sarcastic bite to him.

While I think TFA was JJ`s wish fulfillment in terms of literally making Star Wars, as in the first ever Star Wars before it was known as "A New Hope", he did try to do his job in creating likeable new characters. Did he really care as deeply for them as for his wish fulfillment of making SW? Probably not. Putting in another Death Star (just bigger) and re-creating the trench run, complete even with his own Porkins (there had to be a role for his kindergarten friend Grunberg, there always is) trumped all.

But he did try. Yes, Rey is a bit too perfect already and a bit too competent for a character starting out on her journey. But the second movie could and should have course-corrected that heavily, instead of doubling down on the worst aspects of her.

Not giving her clear agency via a goal is a narrative detriment but TFA the movie could get away with it since it covered a short time-frame and was a fast-paced romp. Again, TLJ could have build on that instead of making her a shallow cipher for a YA romance and a shallow plotonium character. Yay, people, rejoice, she is your OP hero now. She hasn`t earned anything but we need to move along so we gonna give it to her anyway. You weren`t interested in a protagonist journey where she does earn what she gets, right? Sigh.

 

Rey’s lack of agency start when she has to deal with Kylo's Skype all the time against her will. She was tortured by Snoke and had to wait Kylo decide to kill or not her (while in TFA she saved herself). "Please, Ben" ?

 

Luke has more in both movies. Let’s get that out of the way first. I agree with you there. I also can see why it may feel like Rey has more agency in TFA because her screen time & the focus seems to be more on her being on the run. She has more screentime. We both know that.

However, I think Rey shockingly has more agency in TLJ than TFA despite the screen time ratio dropping considerably because or everything The Phantom Calimari just shared.

In TLJ she’s keeping secrets from both men as she assesses their viability. She’s trying to talk Luke into coming back and disagreeing with him and trying to motivate him. She’s sneaking and scavenging the books because she disagrees with Luke. She’s choosing to go into the Dark Side cave despite warning. She’s finally telling her reason for going aloud; something inside her is awake and she doesn’t know what to do with it and wants help. She shows she takes what Luke did to Ben badly because him abandoning Ben there and thinking his choice was made is something she relates to. She shows she’s still willing to give Luke another chance and be the hero she wants to be and would prefer he be the one. She shows a desire to talk about the Force with people who understand it. She shows a desire to connect with another Force user. She decides to face Snoke because of the vision despite Luke telling her its unwise. She shows a trust in the Force is increasing until she learns Snoke decieved her. She shows a desire to save Ben’s life by helping him stop the final guard by throwing him a saber when she could have just ran. Shows she cares more about the Resistance than her relationship with Ben by running to the Oculus first and demanding he call off the attack. Shows she won’t fall for gaslighting and shows she isn’t interested in wealth and power by rejecting his offer to rule with him. Shows she’s okay being the underdog by choosing that over an offer to be on the then winning side. Shows she doesn’t want to kill him when she goes back to get the saber and decides to let him live because she wants to.

The screen ratio dropped for her and yet her agency was still shockingly higher than TFA which is more a reflection of her use in TFA than anything else.

 

Rey isn’t even provided a motive to lie to Luke. We can’t assess this choice because it’s not explored at all. It’s yet another thing one of RJ’s characters does because the script needs them to, not because they have any actual character-based reason to do it. The books are such a blink-and-you-miss then add on that, again, the audience is given no motive for that I can barely count that either. Is she just curious about the force? Does she want to become a Jedi or restart the Jedi Order? Who the hell knows. It’s not in the movie. Maybe JJ will answer that mystery box.

Rey’s choice to “face Snoke” (read: “save Poor Ben’s soul”) is her one choice of the movie where she is given a motive... and then the movie undercuts her motive by revealing she was played like a fiddle by Snoke. Rey falls for really really pathetic half-assed gaslighting through the movie, so I’m not going to give her credit for not doing that lol.

 

An unexpected recurring side effect I've seen from the Last Jedi is that youtube channels I enjoy for their film criticism have made videos in defense that make me lose interest. One popped up in my inbox the other day, which triggered this post. I decided to finally give it a watch, and find a video that likes to talk about how "Last Jedi isn't interested in simply including women, but putting them in positions of authority," but then goes on to ignore how the film neglects those women on their own terms. Even the conclusion of the video is about how it's a story about men learning to accept that women have valid ideas. Which doesn't do any better by female characters, as it relegates them to being in service of men. It's one of the ideas I see pop up a lot in film critics I enjoy talking about the Last Jedi, where they like to talk about how subversive it is, particularly in regards to how it treats women, but seem to have a very narrow focus and ignore all the damage it does to those women by not caring to get into their heads like the men. There's not an issue in men developing in response to women, but in The Last Jedi, it feels to me that the women are there solely for that reason.

The film is seemingly uninterested in getting into why Rey does what she does, she simply does it. This goes as far as ignoring her waking up next to Kylo, and then practically leaving her out of the final act. For a film where she's supposedly the protagonist, she's left out of the climax of the film in favour of a showdown between the two men that her plot has revolve around begging to do something. Rose gets a well done initial introduction but is relegated to being a mouthpiece for ideas RJ wants to convey, but instead of developing them, just has Rose state them so that Finn can react (ignoring all the issues with Finn, child soldier, needing to be lectured about child slavery). And while I don't feel like Holdo needed to tell Poe the plan, she was needlessly antagonistic and secretive. It'd make sense if they thought someone was leaking information, but what reason is there not to tell the Resistance the plan they're moving towards?

This is all without getting into how I feel not much thought is put into Finn or Poe either, but at the very least I can say they have coherent arcs. They're bad, but they're somewhat coherent. Finn lets RJ put all the sociopolitical themes he wants in the movie to say war is bad. I don't care for Rogue One much, but even Rogue One does a better job at conveying those ideas, at least to me. It's a film about how war effects people. Here, it feels like he wants to tackle ideas like war profiteering, but those ideas don't really have a place in this story and don't pay off in any way that matters. Not to mention Finn's arc is over before they go to Canto Bight, as he never waivers from his mission for the Resistance. Poe is the avatar for the hotshot hero type, toxic masculinity and all. What disappoints me about that is it's the antithesis to what made Poe, despite being a very minor character without being fleshed out, an extremely likable character in The Force Awakens. He's that archetype, but without all the machismo and posturing that often comes with it. There are other ways to have him struggle with potentially taking on a leadership position than relegating him to being a chance to point out the flaws with other heroes of that archetype. This is before we get into the problem that comes up in an interview with RJ, and in the video that kicked off this message, that Poe has issues with women in positions of authority. Poe, whose mother was his inspiration and why he became a pilot. Poe, who worked under Leia all this time. Suddenly now he has issues because the woman has purple hair. Luke, despite all my issues with how he's handled, I think I can see a level of care and thought coming through that has gaps, but is more than I can say for Poe and Finn. Kylo, well, I feel like he's the clear focus of the film.

At the end of the day, the videos make me lose some respect for channels I otherwise think are quite good or at least decent enough, and it's for similar reasons to the film. I don't feel like the videos or the film put much thought into the women as their own characters, but only what they are in relation to the men in the story. I don't think it comes from a bad place, but from a lack of thought put into the perspectives of women. Despite a veneer of feminism and being progressive, it still runs into the same problems of the very stories Last Jedi is supposedly counter to, that the women exist in service of the men and their own character is less important than their impact on men. This turned into a longer ramble than I intended, but it's one of the core issues that breaks The Last Jedi for me.

 

Yes I've seen this videos as well which focus on this "lesson" to men and the audience as some sort of defense yet they ignore how terribly the women are actually treated. It's like they are happy they are there at all and that is enough.

Here's a shocker. How about telling stories and having female characters that good or evil make sense and are as flawed and complex and engaging as various male characters have been in movies? Holdo being a terrible leader is fine but have her realize that then make up for it instead of being terrible then say it was all right that she was that all the time.

I'd say TLJ is packed with the most useless bunch of characters ever seen in a Star Wars movie or just about any movie I've ever seen. The best ending would have been if the rest of the galaxy showed up and took out the lot of them.

 

It means Dragon Ball GT. Which the original creator of the Dragon Ball series had nothing to do with. But with the new series Dragon Ball Super, he actually does.

See the parallels?

 

A few things I can’t get over:

Why does snoke look so different in this movie. His face just looks weird. I know it was a hologram in 7 but the shape and eyes look different.

Resistance has just lost tons of people. Not only are people celebrating on the Falcon but Rey is whooping it up as she shoots down ties from the Falcon. Plus her dream of Kylo returning has just been shattered. How is she not somber.

I can get over this but Enders post about Luke dropping R2 off made me think how did Luke get his Xwing to Ach To. Don’t xwings need astromechs for hyperspace navigation. Especially if you’re going to some unfindable planet.

I enjoyed TFA but it had a lot to be critical of (Han being kind of a loser, chewie with no personality, rey force emergence, no Luke, leia/Han breakup, resistance/ NR dichotomy, no OT alien races, xwings shooting individuals at high speed, some humor). However when you enjoy the characters and there is enough mystery for the story to go In Several directions it’s easier to overlook the flaws and Pin hopes on the sequel fixing some of those flaws. Sadly TLJ made them worse.


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Yes, why is Artoo with Leia instead of Luke? If he has the rest of the map, then why isn't he with Luke? HOW did Artoo end up with Leia anyway? I keep coming back to Luke leaving before he even saw Han and Leia and he left a message inside, like Leia did for Obi Wan. Why not? The movie or books won't give me an answer as to what happened, I have to use headcanon. I know that's bad unless it lines up exactly with what the filmmakers tell us is the approved way things happen, but what am I left with?

Either Luke just ran and left Artoo with a message or he saw Han and Leia and then left Artoo with them and ghosted away. I'm at a loss as to which one is objectively worse. Oh, wait, that's right, none of the three of them are heroes anyway, so why should I care?

 

This just makes me think she is crazy.

Facts:
She is tortured by Kylo
Kylo kills her new mentor who shows kindness to her
Kylo maims her new best friend, maybe the only friend she has had
She senses good in him
She force Skypes him
They share more moments
She learns Kylo’s backstory
She goes to meet him
He kills snoke
He betrays her
From comic he admits she tortured him

Also she is happy Luke dies because he’s at peace

Also how does she not remember her parents? She was 5 when they left. She must remember something.

I just don’t get her character arc. When did she decide she wanted to be a Jedi. I can buy helping her friends. I can buy finding her family. I can buy avenging Han.


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Re: Rey’s lack of agency etc - I think many people forget that she has very limited perspective as an abandoned child left to fend for herself. She isn’t Anakin, the young man who’s seen it all, or Luke, the adventure hungry boy eager to “get off this rock”.

Now Anakin made a hugely irrational and evil choice based on force visions. They SEEM real and right. Luke abandoned his training to save his friends, almost got killed like Yoda said. It follows, then, that Rey, who wasn’t taught to interpret visions, is all the more susceptible to them feeling inevitable.

Combine this with Luke’s rejection and the perceived meaning of visions of Ben and her conclusion -
“I’ll turn him back to the light! He can Be the weapon to stop the FO! I solved it” -seems a plausible one and a solid reason for her (strategically dead stupid choice) to get posted in a coffin like a dummy. Because she “totally knew” what was going o happen.

But she didn’t, did she, like Luke on Bespin and Anakin on Coruscant...

It didn’t go the way she’s thought

Hey, I think I solved it guys. I found those beats very problematic but I think I cracked it. Everyone can go home /thread

(Jk of course, I have some problems with the ST but this stopped being one of them)

 

Trauma, I’m guessing. Otherwise the narrative would have had her abandoned at, say, 2-3 years old.

 

I'm gonna have to strongly disagree. The context of maz's words are totally different from whats said in TLJ. After watching TLJ, the rey of TFA is an insane person who waits for people who sold her into slavery. People she knows are dead. She can pilot a ship, but still waits around on a crappy planet so she can half starve while baking during the day, and half starve while freezing during the night. That makes absolutely no sense. Any person would feel nothing but contempt for their parents by the time they're rey's age. She can do anything, she can fly, but instead, lets stay on this horrible planet, living a horrible life of slavery and malnutrition while waiting for dead parents who sold her in the first place. Maz's words imply that rey knows that whom ever left her is never coming back, likely because they're dead. Based on that scene, i guarantee that not one human on earth thought "yeah i'll bet her family sold her into slavery.". That convo with maz does not line up at all with rey's supposed parental reveal. In fact, the purpose of it seemed more to try and hint some connection to luke. After all, why the hell would rey mention someone she thought was a myth yesterday, as the possible belonging she seeks thats ahead of her? I just cannot agree with the notion that rey is consistent on between the two films on any level other than the fact that she can do any and everything. She's practically the squirrel girl of the star wars universe.

Side note:
I just wanted to say that when that bit of dialog was leaked, I knew, i repeat, I KNEW, it was fake. Why? No professional story teller would use a non-word like "unfindable". He/she would use "remote" or "distant" or any other actual word that doesn't make the script feel like it was written on a napkin at a bar some where.

 

Not only did Kylo Ren scream to blow the Millennium Falcon with Rey out of the sky, but I was looking through my subtitle file the other day and noticed that I forgot that Kylo Ren said "I'll destroy [Rey]" to Luke during their battle after Luke said he won't be the last Jedi. Some people think that's the foundation of a healthy relationship and this guy isn't helping.

 

I think...he finds the idea hilarious.

Which would be pretty bloody cruel.

 

Are healthy relationships really front of mind for you in Star Wars though?

 

All of the people pictured here have a reason to care about the Skywalkers. Rey is the only one that doesn’t, and in fact really only has reason to want to get as far from the Skywalkers as humanly possible. Anakin and Padme fell in love and had a perfectly healthy relationship. Tragically, it fell off a cliff, but Padme was already in love. That makes letting go hard. Rey with the Skywalkers? No connection. No love. Just strangers that either abduct and abuse her or tell her to get lost. Most people that don’t suffer from some kind of mental disorder and that actually place any kind of value in their own life and their own happiness would just be like, “coo, peace out.”