ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

Literally none of those are clues pointing to Rey Plapy.

 

They’ll do in retrospect.

The supposed “clues” that some other popular lineage theories leaned on were cobbled together in a similar manner but if they supported other people’s lineage theory of choice, despite being as much as a reach as these, I suspect others would sing a different tune.

 

I have to second the opinion that literally none of those point to Rey Palpatine.

Accents are not hereditary. Most of the other point made here were about her going to the dark side, Luke and Anakin both did that numerous times throughout their stories so that's not indicative at all of a Palpatine. Specifically,her vision in the cave directly mirrored after Luke Skywalker's experience on Dagobah.

The force back had nothing to do with Palpatine and impact was very much based around Luke Skywalker's journey and the lightsaber coming to Rey.

Finally, the fact that none of the legacy characters mentioned having lost a child means nothing. Just because they didn't have a child doesn't mean Palpatine did, it's not relevant to a Palpatine reveal, not to mention a common trope in storytelling is parents losing a child and then not speaking about it for many years until some traumatic event brings it out.

Palpatine may have been plan to return from the beginning but Rey Palpatine was most likely not planned from the beginning, the clues you listed require some mental gymnastics at the least to even try and shoehorn them into the story as clues in retrospect.

If it was their intent to make her a Palpatine from the beginning, they could have done a much better job at laying the groundwork even if they didn't want him to return until the third film.

 

I’m not saying it was their master plan all along because I don’t believe there was one. However, these moments will probably work well enough to feel like reinforcements of her ultimate lineage with everything else functioning for why she will be an honorary member of the Skywalker family despite her bloodline.

Oh, and I forgot the Rey clones visual in her dark side cave vision as well. Given her grandfather’s rise was executed by clones it could function like an abstract subconscious tie to her family’s legacy.

Was that intended? Doubtful but intention matters less then what exists in the end and how it all combines.

 

IMO Rey's "stabbing" fighting style in TFA is the only clue there has ever been for Rey Palpatine

 

Ah, silly old me, trying to find Rey Kenobi clues in TLJ trailers.

 

And I am pretty sure that her fighting style can be attributed to her lack of experience with sabers but her use of her staff in fighting..

 

There have been no clues to her being a Palpatine...none. There haven't been any because they only decided to go there after TLJ, and because they had no idea where they actually wanted to take the story. The only thing I know for sure? They did not want to take the story any way the the fans wanted it to go. Great business decision!!

 

Palpatine moves in those gifs reminds me an attack of the poisonous snake. The way he killed first two Jedi looks like they were Force hypnotised by them:



An his strikes in those gifs looked like an attack of the snake.



I believe George had that analogue in mind. Palpatine also reminded me cobra in those cloaks.





What i ment to say is that Rey's and Palpatine's moves resemblance have no signifance since Palpatine style was based (imo) on his personality and portrayal while Rey has nothing in her both personality and portrayal wise to fight like a snake.

p.s. i just realized the pattern on his red cloak looks like two cobras facing each other.

 

I really hope when Rey and Palps meet first time we get this:

 

How about we look at Thor in Endgame, who fails disastrously, spirals into depression, and ends up a drunken wreck?

And you know what? It worked much better than anything done to Luke. There's a real sense that Thor's failures (that we actually see happen on screen and witness the direct after effects) have legitimately damaged his psyche. He sees himself as unable to lead properly, since all his decisions ended with so much death and destruction. It's partly played for laughs at first, but there's still an undeniable effectiveness to seeing him brought so low.

Yet here's where it beats Luke for me: Even when he's at his absolute lowest, he still steps up and tries to help. Before that point there was literally nothing he could do to change things, whereas Luke could have been proactive from the start.

Yes, he's still shaky and ineffective (see his scene with Rocket in Asgard where he starts to break down), but he still tries. Then in the end he actually gets off his ass and fights, unlike Luke, who didn't damage the FO in a single quantifiable way. He stalled for 5 minutes while Rey actually saved the day.

Luke's moping never felt 'realistic' to me, since we were never given time to focus on the students he lost or the people he left behind.

And that's just an example of one single character in Endgame. Tony Stark also goes through a similar kind of 'defeat spiral', but ends up putting himself into more healthy pursuits like raising his daughter. Captain America struggles with trying to move on despite his overwhelming urge to 'live in the past'. Rocket Raccoon, a frikking raccoon losing his found family gets me harder than anything they tried to do with Luke and Kylo.

Anyway, enough MCU, I just saw this post and thought that it wasn't actually addressing the material events of those films compared to TLJ.

 

Lmao.
Btw, i must admit, Daisy is very cute. Id wish she had better material to work with. She deserves to play an iconic character, not... this.

 

What's been retconned? Specifics.

 

Luke being a hero.

 

I agree with what you’re saying. But they kind of already had done that with Han in TFA.

So do they retread that with Luke in TLJ, only with a force aspect??

Or do they go with something else?


There’s also the fact that Luke is the ex-mentor to the villain. Similar to the Ancient One or Odin or Hank Pym.

It would be like if Thanos father A’Lars or brother Eros were Avengers. Something that’s not compatible with Thor.

 

Are you implying that Yoda and Obi-Wan should have also been more like Marvel characters and fought against Sidious and Vader with every fiber in their being?

Or did you miss the part where Luke thinks his time on the island of refusing to fight IS the fight against the cycle of violence he’s witnessed based on how this moment played out for him earlier?

In the MCU the biggest heroic moments don’t involve throwing away weapons/not fighting:


The climax and greatest victory of his life is literally winning the war by refusing to fight and protesting in an act of non-violence the cycle he sees between what the Emperor wants and what the remaining Jedi order want of him. He breaks the cycle by his act of non-violence. He does what neither side expect. It tracks that he’d return to that mindset again after a similar dark side moment as before. Only this time his ability to pull back and his desire not to fight don’t have the positive results of before.

So, if you want this;



Marvel & video games like Gears of War are better suited to giving you that type of thing.

One of the main reasons Vader is so popular is because by embracing the dark side he functions closest to a Marvel style character that could exist in their galaxy.

The Jedi philosophy taken to its furthest extremes — which older masters work up to — is not well suited to function as a super hero. It’s not quite pacifism but it’s also not assassin marvel super hero stuff either.

If you’re looking for this epitomized from monks in exile:





Then the non-prequel era older Jedi masters have you covered.

 

You are talking about the same Thor who fought his brother repeatedly then his sister in the third movie? And whose father turned out be kind of an imperialist warlord in the past?

 

That's... what they did. In ROTS, once they learn there's a threat, they directly go to confront it.

Obi-Wan thinks he's succeeded initially, while Yoda fails. Once that mission's done, they are literally hunted fugitives with zero support structure. Hiding and waiting to train Luke is their plan to fight against Sidious with every fiber of the being, it's being wise to the fact that going head on would result in a swift death.

Nope, sorry, that's really not what Luke's doing. He's letting the cycle of violence carry on in a massive way while chilling out and wanting to die. He does nothing to end the cycle, then when he shows up to confront Kylo he goads him on, not de-escalating the conflict at all.

I agree, that's why I like the final message of ROTJ as it pertains to Luke's relationship with Vader. He chooses to spare the man based on his attachment to the ideal of his father.

It's not a complete investment in pacifism though, since the end of the film is resolved by Vader chucking a guy down a big hole, then the Rebels blow the place up for good measure.

But it doesn't have a bearing on TLJ, in which our main hero gleefully guns down kidnapped brainwashed child soldiers without that denting her conscience one bit. Luke doesn't save the day with pacifism, he doesn't talk Kylo down or try to win him over. He taunts him and distracts him while allowing the non-pacifistic organisation to creep out the back so they can fight the FO.

The rest of your post was just kind of vague 'peace is the answer' stuff, ignoring the fact that those same Jedi all fought in wars to protect the freedoms they held dear. The MCU actually touches on that few times in the Captain America movies, where he ultimately decides that fighting for a cause he believes in is better than sitting back and letting what sees as tyranny take over.

 

And who ultimately decided to leave leadership of his people to Valkyrie. Just like Luke left the title of The Last Jedi to Rey.

 

While he goes off with the Guardains and still remains a person who'll try to be a hero. He acknowledges his flaws in passing on the title of ruler of the Asgardians, something he feels he's inadequate as, but doesn't abandon everything to ruin like Luke did.

Anyway, I feel like this MCU tangent should probably end now.

 

If it’s okay with the mods, I do want to start a comparison of OT trio in the ST, to other older mentors in others properties like Avengers, Logan, Terminator, etc. in another thread.

 

I think you missed some context.

Too much happens off screen with Luke, but with the MCU characters, we see it all, and are with them ever step of the way

This isn't about some big epic fight...this is about understanding WHY the characters made the choices they did. I have no issue with Luke nearly taking a swing at Ben Solo...he almost killed Vader in a murderous rage because the man was threatening his sister....looking at what Kylo has done...if Luke had a vision of that I fully understand him reacting as he did....and calming down before striking the young man down. What is harder to buy are the years in exile and the refusal to teach Rey anything other than why the Jedi are wrong. Even Mark Hamill pointed out that Luke would most likely take some time (a year at most) to rethink things then get back into action to try and make things better, and that really IS what should've happened. That is what I could buy based on what I've seen of Luke before...for him to have the attitude he did in TLJ I'd need to see much more of his journey. People are suffering and dying, worlds are being torn apart and Luke's inaction is only allowing it to go on...and he's not dumb enough to believe anything else would occur if he exiles himself to some distant world.

From my POV, Rian Johnson wanted certain things to happen, so he handed Luke the conflict ball, Rey the idiot ball etc to wrangle the story in the direction he desired...and to a lot of people it shows. Then you compare/contrast that with the MCU where they have successfully shown you how characters not only changed in the face of failure but recovered from it over time.

In the MCU, so far, Epic moments are driven and earned by strong characterization.

 

Luke wins in ROTJ by pulling back from the dark side AND seeing the cycle between both opposing factions and what both the prequel Jedi and Sith Lord want of him and choosing neither. He chooses to embrace his knowledge and not to attack, throwing away the saber.

VIII is all about taking what worked for him before in ROTJ — pulling himself back from the abyss of the dark side, throwing aside the saber and refusing to fight and not doing what others expected of him — and showing his greatest victories of the past not winning the day this time and instead combining to negative consequence.

We are revisiting those some concepts by design to see where in a different scenario they could lead him astray and into problems and it’s built on the foundation of Luke seeing himself as the biggest enemy of all and him not wanting to become like Darth Vader.

If you approach EVERYTHING in VIII from the mindset of Luke not wanting to become like Darth Vader or close to him ever again it all makes more sense. Which is why those same beats are revisited again in different ways following a dark side moment reminiscent of Jedi when he last felt that dark side power that corrupted his father. It’s everything that worked for him before taken to extremes because it moved beyond the hypothetical of him not wanting to become like his father and instead waking up to the consequences of a Jedi massacre reminiscent of his father. Inspired in part by him and carried out using skills he himself taught.

 

True, but I suspect it will be similar to what happened with the prequels.
Right now, we're in the unfortunate phase when people who clearly don't enjoy much of anything at all about the ST still feel compelled to post about them multiple times per day, making the overall atmosphere very negative. Eventually, those people will move on. Then the atmosphere surrounding the ST will seem more positive because the people still discussing it will mostly just be the people who enjoy them. This will also make it more inviting for other people who are newly discovering the ST to join in the discussions, which will likely help them enjoy the movies more.

And I'm reminded of something one of the designers of the Monkey Island series once said, about how for some people, the current game is always the worst one, and the previous games are always remembered more fondly than they were received at the time.

 

Ugh seriously? You complained about overuse of the term in reference to a post about Sheev being retconned as a family man. Let’s start there... and let’s end there. This is so unnecessarily hostile. People don’t have to justify themselves to you. If you think Sheev as a family man fits with everything we’ve seen, good for you. I don’t. I think it’s a cynical retcon, or ass pull if you will, to give the audience a subversive moment.