ST Luke Skywalker/Mark Hamill Discussion Thread [SEE WARNING ON PAGE 134]

This is the thing isn't it? There's no real internal logic to Luke force projecting himself... and force projecting himself with a makeover... other than perhaps he cant physically get off the island (which Abrams kind of destroys in the very next film anyway). So we are left with the inevitable conclusion... the whole sequence is based not on the narrative/thematic/character requirements, but simply because Johnson wants a 'ta-da' moment... which isn't a bad thing in and of itself... but in creating that 'ta-da' moment, Johnson willingly sacrifices the significantly more fundamental aspects.

 

I have to disagree. As said, the story trope of the mythical warrior who turns up in his regalia at the final battle to give hope to the hopeless isn't unknown, and in those tropes he would arrive in shining armour flying his standard and carrying his shield and coat of arms. The troops are wowed and the day is saved. It isn't that hard to see that this is a play on that idea. It's kind of his William Wallace moment. Wallace arrives at the battle all face-painted up in his best gear. Superman doesn't appear as the beaten up, powerless Clark Kent to face off against General Zod in Superman II, he arrives restored to his superhero status in full costume.

 

I think you are slightly conflating two separate points, and in doing so, not quite seeing the weakness that others see in it. The tropes you refer to don't usually consist of the 'mythical warrior' sending a facsimile of themselves into battle. They are usually built around the premise that the warrior is there 'in the flesh'... like Gandalf the White at the battle of Helms Deep... or even Yoda saving the day in AOTC. That the sage/warrior/mentor turns up in the final reel to save the day isn't in contention (although as I suggested earlier, thematically it should have been Leia's scene IMO), it's that Luke's appearance is more based around a bait and switch moment rather than something that is pivotal to the narrative or characters/story. That Luke doesn't appear in person has no internal logic to it. He can get off the island (as TROS shows us). It would be a bit like the final reel of ANH with Luke remote controlling his X-Wing for the DS trench run from the safety of another planet. That's why the scene falls completely flat in my opinion. Even when watching the film for the first time with friends, who didn't know what was going to happen, they knew something was wrong because of Luke's appearance... so any peril/threat was lost/undermined because they were amused at his dyed hair... and questioning the logic of it... all before it's revealed that Luke is not actually there. I"m sure that was't Johnson's intention.

 

They show up IN PERSON. The movies revolve around them. But TLJ isn’t supposed to revolve around Luke and Kylo, it’s supposed to be about Rey, Finn and Poe. It’s as if Empire is switched so that it’s about Yoda’s failure with the Emperor and Vader is revealed as Luke”s father in act 1 (well, really as Luke’s possible love interest).

 

In The Last Jedi, there is a scene deliberately inserted to show that Luke had in fact scuttled his X-Wing so that he couldn't get off the island. Part of the craft was being used as a door to his hut. It is in fact a critical detail relating to Luke somehow being able to show up on Crait. The fact that JJ Abrams retconned this story point to provide a functioning vessel for Rey isn't a fair criticism to make of The Last Jedi. Yeah, it's subjective as to whether the concept of appearing via the Force works for you or not. I wasn't sure at first, then I found myself actually liking it.

****, I'm deaf

 

Since this scene is copying the confrontation in ANH where Obi-wan duels Vader in the DS, another tropey old hero comes out of retirement to help the heroes in battle and allow them to escape. Imagine if Old Ben put on his PT-ROTS Obi-wan 'battle armor' to fight his old pupil. You'd be like WTF. Why does he need to change his image here.

The reasoning that this is last version of Obi-wan that Vader is emotionally familiar with and he needs to get him to stall just long enough to get Luke on the falcon would not cut it. In fact, notice how when Ben comes out of retirement to help the kids escape, he's very much in the flesh - even if the spirit is more important and he's really a luminous being underneath - Ben is still there. That is, until he shows Luke (and Vader) there's more to the Force and fades away, so that he can be with Luke, always. (And if Ben hadn't faded into the force then, he couldn't be in his cockpit telling to turn off his computer and listen to the force/his heart)

Instead Luke's great inspirational sacrifice is basically to trick his nephew with a fake Luke disguise to get the rebels to escape. He wants to inspire the galaxy to join the fight - very much in their flesh - but he won't actually do that himself. So he's lying to them as well.

And then, even more so, once Luke fades into the Force, he does jack**** with that to help Rey. He could have spoken to her to lift those rocks or something important in that moment. But nah. Rey knows he died in peace or something. Rey doesn't need Luke anymore. Not until she needs a pep talk a year later. That pep talk could have happened in the flesh too. So going ghost wasn't even necessary.

The whole thing is layers upon layers of conflicting themes and preposterous reasonings.

 

One detail that I have in my headcanon is that it's actually Luke lifting the rocks, he's buying time with the projection, but he's also giving Rey the confidence to fully buy into the Force moving forward, making her believe it's actually possible to do such things. That and it also gives him actual credit for saving the Resistance members other than Skyping and dying immediately after.

 

I agree that there's a shot of Luke's scuttled X-Wing in TLJ. However, I'd question whether that's what Johnson is trying to convey in the shot i.e. that Luke is stranded. I interpreted it more as Luke's rejection of technology, and affirmation of his more 'pastoral' existence in his solitude. We know that Obi-Wan Kenobi (ANH) doesn't have a functioning ship, but it doesn't stop him getting off Tatooine. And of course Luke, in TLJ, has the ability to reach out to Leia and ask her to pick him up (Finn and Rose seem able to move about quite freely). So I really don't think the idea that Luke is totally stranded is particularly reinforced... and I don't think, if Luke had been there 'in the flesh' on Crait, that anyone would be stating 'how the hell did he get off that island?'... as we'd just of assumed he'd either recovered his X-wing or that he'd hitched a lift from elsewhere.

In my opinion it has to be seen as a failing on the ST as a whole. That Abrams undoes things that Johnson puts in place, and visa versa, is on Lucasfilm and the producers, not the audience whom are left to scratch their heads.

 

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You are arguing preposterous reasoning yet aren't comparing like with like. Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't going to change appearance or into garments he didn't have with him in A New Hope because the story had him there, in person. The Last Jedi, quite reasonably, establishes why Luke cannot be there on Crait in person. He is stranded on the island after scuttling his own vessel, and after Rey leaves suddenly in the Falcon. So following his reconnection to the Force, he does the next best thing, and sends forth his image, as he appeared in his prime. The Legend.

The preamble to this is Rey stating that the Galaxy may need a legend. It needs Luke Skywalker. There is nothing inherently preposterous therefore about using an image of himself that would generate the required levels of inspiration. This isn't Luke appearing just to grovel and prostrate himself as part of his redemption. He is past that now. He has accepted his failure as Ben's teacher (for which he apologises), but he has accepted that he isn't responsible now for Kylo's subsequent behaviour "Have you come to save my soul?" "No" and "I can't save him" He is there to help his sister and the Resistance survive and escape from the bolt hole they find themselves cornered in.

Where you see cocky and arrogant, I just see Luke as grimly self-assured. The wink to Threepio, the shoulder brush, the "See you around kid" - they aren't delivered with a wry smirk or a wink to the audience, Luke is deadly serious.

Like most scenes, earlier dialogue or scenes help establish later ones. Rey's musing about "Lifting rocks" right before she does so is a callback to her earlier naivete about the Jedi and the Force and how it is a thing that just "makes things float" She gets to understand what the Force is really about, a pretty powerful ally that can be used to help and save her friends in their hour of need.

The other clue that Luke's feat is pretty much going to be fatal for him is that it is a difficulty level above the communication method that Kylo and Rey are using, and for which Kylo observes "You aren't doing this, the effort would kill you" when he speaks to Rey.

I get that you don't like it @DarkGingerJedi, but I don't really agree with your pessimistic take on Luke's appearance at the end, equating it to some kind of sinister lie or ignoble act.

Edit: @Darth PJ - I think that the shot of the scuttled ship is deliberately inserted to hit home the idea that Luke came to the island to stay, and cannot leave even if he wanted to. That X-Wing is Luke's "The Bounty", which was scuttled and left to rot at the bottom of the sea off the coast of Pitcairn Island. Nobody was leaving.

 

I appreciate your view... however that's just one of several interpretations. After all, there are other intelligent species on the planet/island who could have helped him off the rock. Luke isn't the only sentient inhabitant. There are numerous things going on in the film to tell us that Luke isn't literally stranded on the island. And the scuttled X-wing could as easily be perceived a visual clue to suggest that Luke could leave, if he needed to, rather than couldn't (after all it's not the first time an X-wing has been underwater and then flown away). It seems to me that Abrams and Johnson explicitly suggest that Luke is in self-exile... and the 'stranded' element is largely assumed... which is why the logic of it is being questioned.

 

Going off Luke's flying record, I wouldn't be surprised if he accidentally crashed it on landing. "Not such a bad pilot myself!" he says...

Whilst Luke's exile was self-imposed, I get the impression that he has made that situation permanent. The Last Jedi Visual Dictionary shows that he has used an S-Foil wing from his X-Wing as the door for his hut for example. The ship is definitely not in service, which is why it is amusing that JJ Abrams ignored this fact and made it Rey's ticket to Exogol.

 

The X-Wing being underwater was clearly to show that Luke had at least no intention of leaving Ach-To, but given the nature of Star Wars and the fact that we've actually seen X-Wings lifted from the water before and used, I don't think it would have surprised anyone to see Luke appear in it on Crait. In fact, I think it would have been an incredible moment if instead of the Millennium Falcon, the X-Wing appears and takes out some TIE fighters. Kylo's demand to blast that ship out of the sky would make even more sense. I just think the end of the film would have been so much more meaningful and powerful if Luke appeared in person and I really don't think a stranded X-Wing is a good enough excuse to require the projection. We're constantly told not to nitpick minor details and to let the space wizard movie be the fun adventure it is, yet you bring up the X-Wing and now it's completely obvious he could never leave. I just don't buy it as an absolute, I think they could have easily had Luke show up.

 

So I'm not excluding for a second the notion that Luke perhaps saw his exile as being permanent etc. But that he could change his mind is the pertinent point. And I don't believe that TLJ suggests that him being stranded is 'permanent', because if it were, the bait and switch force projection wouldn't work for the audience, because the audience would know that it couldn't be Luke. So for the bait and switch to work, Johnson can't commit/or reenforce the notion of Luke being stranded, otherwise it would give the game away. And this is why we get into it being an issue, as Johnson is much more invested (IMO) in the 'gimmick' than he is in the story reasons for it, and thus it kind of creates the internal logic contradictions.

 

I honestly believe Johnson would have looked at that scenario you present (which works so much better than what we got IMO)... and he would have said 'yeah but that's just what the audience are expecting us to do...'...

 

The bait and switch, and clues that Luke couldn't leave the island* were deliberately teased to make the audience scratch their heads and say "Huh? How? Wut?" when Luke suddenly appears on Crait at the end, I won't deny that.

* or at least, couldn't leave to get to Crait in good time in person because of the repairs the ship would need.

I think that Rian made an effort to explain why Luke had to appear as a Force projection.

 

The very fact that in TROS the X-Wing is perfectly functionable invalidates every notion in TLJ that Luke was just stranded. If TLJ kinda sorta intended to imply that makes no difference. It was never put down in such a way that JJ couldn't walk back on it. So now it is what it is.

All other movies get "but in context of this yada yada". TLJ is not the exception, the little wondermuffin that you point to and say "TROS doesn't count".

At least the ST trilogy in and of themselves counts as one. TFA loses nearly all of its charme or fun in context of TLJ, too. So I say if TLJ gets some of the same fate, it's honestly just desserts.

I think Luke is even less after TROS than after TLJ because the former just slaps a paint job on him but either ignores the issues the character nor has or takes even more legacy from him

Personally I find a dark irony in TROS completely ignoring that lazy meta tag-on of Crait!Luke being this so-called inspiration. Well, no, not if that notion didn't play a role beyond one scene with kids and their toys.

Now there is reaching and headcanon on how it took place offscreen and that's how Lando Mobilität the galaxy. Haha, sure. If JJ wanted this in his movie, it would have been there in dialogue. Just like the Force Ghosts would have visually helped Rey onscreen if they were meant to be seen beyond a mere cheersquad. JJ ain't subtle. He knows how to build such scenes to convey things clearly.

 

The ship was scuttled, with salvaged parts from it used elsewhere. JJ couldn't walk back on it, which is the reason why it is hilarious that he did.




I think everybody had given up by that point in Rise of Skywalker and they just depicted whatever they wanted.

 

i think it would have been so much more powerful a moment - within the narrative of not just TLJ, but Luke's entire journey in the saga - if, when after talking to Yoda, Luke lifts the X-wing out of the water to help his friends.

It would mirror the scenes in ESB, when he couldn't lift the x-wing out of the swamp because he didn't believe in himself. His failures have nothing to do with Kylo's training, per se. They have to do with not believing himself, his true self, and getting caught up in what he continually thinks Jedi should be - ie; great warriors, powerful beings, or, as it currently manifests....as a legend. Back in ESB, Luke doesn't think he can do it, it's too tough. Here, its same the same thing. It's too hard being a Jedi. He can't live up to this idea in my head. Same problem.

He also feels conflicted because he knows he can't live up to those legends that he erroneously believes the people want from him, so he escapes. He goes into exile like Yoda. He begins to realize that the Jedi failed because of their hubris, and this also Luke's failure. Not because he was too proud, or too blind, but because he was too assured and too focused of becoming that legend. In his life, every time Luke becomes cocky and arrogant, and self-assured, he tends to fail. But his failure isn't about failing to live up to some legend, it's about not believing in himself. His true self.

This is further explained by Yoda, who literally just told him that the sacred 'legendary' books are not important. He's ready to burn it all down. Because those things don't matter. Luke didn't even read them. He just holds them in high regard because he falsely believes he should.

Luke is finally completing his training. He's ignored the battle for 6 years to figure this out. He's reluctant to rush off too quickly to save the day and play Jedi Hero. He even thinks the Jedi should end. But he doesn't understand why, until this moment. He's not ready to believe in himself, his true self. He doesn't need to pretend to be some legendary Jedi. Some cocky powerful Jedi. He just needs to be ... Luke Skywalker.

And with the true power of the Force, having faith in yourself to be your true self (again this is what happened to Vader and how Luke made him realize his true self was always there)...Luke is now ready to lift that X-wing out of the water, and go join the battle.

TLJ sets up a few great ideas. This one in particular. Or the bit about enslaved kids, or people like Rose who were attacked by the FO. Or the FO and Resistance both buying arms from the same dealers. But it's equally frustrating because it abandons these ideas just as quickly with ones that are the complete opposite.

Instead of seeing real Luke show up on the battlefield, and after being told that legends don't matter, here's Luke pretending he's something he's not, again, to trick Kylo, and to inspire the galaxy into action because this is the legend they expect. And it's not really him. It's not his true self, his spirit, or his luminous being. It's a lie. And that's really sad because it came so close to being great. I and don't know if the writer didn't care, didn't know, or knew and was just ... trolling the audience.

 

But this was not in the movie per se. Maybe 0.1 % of movie viewers read this. There was no dialogue from either Rey or Luke that established onscreen with 1000 % clarity that this X-Wing was never going to fly again. So JJ could walk back on it with perfect ease.

I doubt he would or could have walked back on something truly obvious like Tatooine being a desert world.

JJ largely relies on mystery boxes which are, well, you don't even need to walk back on them because you can fill them with anything. And RJ heavily relied on "gotcha" gimmicks and vague POVs for supposed depth. You can walk back on those. Super-easy, barely an inconvenience.

 

If Luke - I mean Yoda - can lift the submerged X-wing out of a swamp, and be basically flight-ready, then Luke could have done the same here. We never had a good look at the rusting ship, and the only thing that really needed repair was the door. In this SW galaxy, that's minor repair.

 

Good points all around. three things.

A) That illustration is not what we see in the movie. What appears on screen is not detailed enough to make out the extent of damage or model of X-Wing.

B) That’s not the X-Wing we see in The Rise of Skywalker. Rey flies Luke’s Red 5 X-wing from the Original Trilogy. The illustration depicts a resistance X-Wing. It’s the half circle engines that give it away.

C) this is an impossible illustration. Look at the left wing. The lower wing appears to be broken off yet I’m seeing two sets of wing lasers on it. This illustration is depicting a total 5 laser canon mounts.

 

Here is what’s in the movie compared with the illustration. Is that top image what we see in The Rise of Skywalker? Are there two X-Wings sunk off the island? Or is it one movie error?

 

Read the top part of the article I posted, it was a quote from the VFX artist that appeared in The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi book. The intent was clearly that Luke had scuttled the ship, taken bits off it and was thus stuck on the island. The article's focus is on how The Rise of Skywalker thus creates a plot hole by Luke raising it and it being ready for Rey to fly away in, although the Rise of Skywalker novel has this to explain it. Rey manages to eventually fix it:

The novel also adds that Rey had to stay on Ahch-To overnight, presumably to give her enough time to find what she needed to repair the ship. Luke didn't have the luxury of that time.