Amph [NERRRD] Observations, rhetorical questions, comments & 58 Years of Star Trek (General Thread)

Memory Beta dates the events of the episode as taking place in 2346 (with Kira being born in 2343) and has Season 1 of DS9 begin in 2369 (and Season 6 be in 2374).

So if you take those dates as accurate, Kira was 26 in Season 1, and 31 in Season 6.

Memory Alpha (which goes out of its way to avoid "EU info") uses those dates as well, in the Kira Meru entry.

 

Maybe it's a case of him only being in charge of Terok Nor for 10 years (2360-2369) - but a major figure in the occupation for over a decade before that.

Going by Memory Alpha's info, the armistice between the Federation and the Cardassians wasn't till Season 4 of TNG (Jellico was involved in the signing of that armistice) and the peace treaty itself wasn't till Season 7 of TNG, the year after the Cardassians withdrew from Terok Nor and it became DS9.

Odd in the context of the Federation being very peaceful in Season 1 - but possibly justifiable as "the war had died right down by Season 1 to very minor skirmishes".

 

Interesting, as O'Brien was on the Enterprise in Season 1 of TNG, and his service time in the war was well over. I always took the Fed/Cardy war was long over by TNG. The tensions and treaties were coming into effect during TNG, but the major fighting was over. It took the diplomats years to craft the DMZ and make everybody angry again.

What are the connections that tie the end of the occupation of Bajor to the end of the Fed/Cardy war? I always thought the Bajorans were distinctly outside the Federation sphere prior to DS9. TNG: Ensign Ro gives us the picture of the the Bajorans as refugees in neutral space. This would also allude that the occupation of Bajor was still in effect as of TNG season 5.

So basically when the Enterprise is dealing with the Bajoran refugee issues in 2368, it would seem likely that the Cardassians are planning/preparing to enact the withdrawal from Bajor. in 2369, it happens, and the Federation leaps into the mess left behind.

As for Dukat...I could see him boasting up his service record. I could also see him making several "tours of duty" to Bajor over the course of the occupation. Perhaps he was stationed to Terok Nor in 2346, then transferred to other duties, only to return as head of the entire occupation around 2359...to give a solid 10 years of overall command before the final withdrawal.

 

It just occurred to me how this all can be pulled together...

Dukat is stationed to Terok Nor during the occupation in 2346.

Then is reassigned...to serve in the Federation/Cardassian War (which the earliest reported event is 2347)

Then as the war dwindles into skirmishes and peace talks begin around 2359/60, he returns to Bajor, now in full command of the occupation.

Makes total sense to me.

 

Season 2 of DS9 and Season 7 of TNG, which take place the same year, both have The Maquis as a prominent issue late in the season.

 

The episode Journey's End late in TNG season 7 (the last episode with Wesley) is the one where the negotiations are finally completed, and the DMZ has just been created.

The Federation's commitment to not defend any colonies in the DMZ, is the primary impetus for the Maquis being formed.

 

It's possible, but Memory Alpha emphasises that the Federation "refused to become involved" with the ending of the Occupation, and there's no mention of them trading away any disputed worlds.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Occupation_of_Bajor


The Federation refused to become involved in ending the Occupation, regarding it as an internal political matter and therefore covered by the Prime Directive, despite the fact that they themselves had been at war with the Cardassians for much of the latter half of the Occupation. (TNG: "Ensign Ro")
After fifty years of occupation, the Cardassians withdrew from Bajor in 2369. The exact cause of the withdrawal is largely a matter of opinion; while the Bajorans attributed it to the efforts of the Bajoran Resistance, the Cardassians regarded it as an entirely political decision.


It's suggested that in the lead-up to the withdrawal, the Cardassians diverted the forces that used to be defending Bajor, in an attempt to annex the Federation world Minas Korva.


In the days leading up to the withdraw, the Cardassians diverted warships away from Bajor in an attempt to annex Minos Korva, a disputed planet near the Cardassian-Federation border. (TNG: "Chain Of Command, Part I") After a round of tense diplomatic negotiations, Captain Edward Jellico dealt the Cardassians a humbling defeat at the McAllister C-5 Nebula. Under Jellico's terms of surrender, all of the ships were forced to eject their primary phaser coil, effectively rendering their ships defenseless. (TNG: "Chain Of Command, Part II")

The episode The Wounded (half-way through season 4 of TNG) takes place "nearly a year" after a peace treaty between the Federation and Cardassia had been concluded.

So - peace (or at least an armistice - Season 3) - then just over 2 years later, the Bajor withdrawal (beginning of TNG Season 6), then about a year and a half later, the DMZ treaty.

 

Bajorans I could see as prominent in the early Maquis - Ro was one. Seska was masquerading as one.

 

I still have to appreciate the irony that a former Bajoran "terrorist" taught Cardassians the very skills she used to oppose them when Damar and his followers rebelled against the Dominion.

 

The fact that there's still around a year of war to go between the Season 2 episode Peak Performance, and the offscreen Season 3 armistice, makes some of Riker and Picard's comments about the relative unimportance of starship combat training to starship captains, kind of silly-sounding.

Good example of how later content retroactively makes early content seem odder.

 

re. Dukat and Kira, according to Memory Alpha Kira was born in 2343 and her mother was taken in 2346, so she was 26 in S1 and three when the past sequence of WDTDON takes place. Dukat I always took to be an older guy - older then Sisko but younger then Picard (probobly around the same age as Kira's mother who was born in 2314 according to the wiki, so in his late 50s when the show starts), and as has been noted it could simply be that he did'nt directly command Terok Nor initally (perhaps his headquarters were originally planetside but assassination attempts caused him to re-locate)

@Iron_lord @The2ndQuest given that the Federation was actively at war with the Cardassians overlapping with the occupation, I find it hard to believe they were totally uninvolved no matter what they said - I can imagine them using intermediaries to supply the Bajoran Underground with, if not weapons, then at least equipment, while using political pressure during the negotations to enforce a withdrawl.

Federation aid would explain why it was the Federation the Bajorans turned to after the war.

I always took the attitude to be reflective of the Federation/Starfleet's arrogance at the time; the Cardassian War was supposedly a relatively minor conflict (all the wars between TUC and the start of the TNG era seem to have been), so Starfleet's probobly just lulled themselves into a low state of readyness.

 

The Borg threat would have kicked things into high gear, but they weren't anywhere near ready before Wolf 359. They clearly accelerated the development of defenses and weapons post-Wolf 359 which allowed them a better chance at the beginning of First Contact.

 

In the early Season 5 episode Ensign Ro, Picard suggests that it's the fact that the war is now over, that puts the Federation in a better position to help Bajor.


KEEVE: I'm sorry, I don't wish to help you. Don't misunderstand. I for one believe the raid on the Federation outpost was poor judgment. You are innocent bystanders, and I cannot condone violence against those who are not our enemies.
PICARD: Then I don't understand why you are unwilling?
KEEVE: Because you are innocent bystanders. You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes, as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable, as we were forced to flee.
PICARD: We were saddened by those events but they occurred within the designated borders of the Cardassian Empire.
KEEVE: And the Federation is pledged not to interfere in the internal affairs of others. How convenient that must be for you, to turn a deaf ear to those who suffer behind a line on a map.
PICARD: Well, I'm not here to debate Federation policy with you, but I can offer you assistance.
KEEVE: Simply because of one terrorist attack? Perhaps I should have known that. We should have attacked the Federation long ago. What do you think of that, Ro?
RO: I think you're a small man who feels a rush of power in his belly and enjoys it far too much, Keeve. Stop talking and listen.
PICARD: We've had our problems with the Cardassians too, but now that we have a treaty, we're in a position to help. Your people have been forced to resettle all over the quadrant. But now we can make a legitimate case with the Cardassians that this is not an isolated problem. We can work diplomatically on your behalf. But first, these terrorist attacks must end.


And just over 1 year later, the Withdrawal takes place. Possibly the debacle with Admiral Kennelly being conned by the Cardassians, was a contributing factor in the Federation's subsequent behaviour.

 

It is all quite intriguing how it weaves in and out. But I don't see any of it being deliberately instigated by the Federation.

The Bajoran occupation was lamented by the Federation, but not acted on...heck, if you take the prime directive to it's most plot-bashing extreme, even negotiating "about" Bajor with the Cardassians in treaty talks would be a violation.

And truly, the irony is thick that a wrecked, ruined, divided world like Bajor would beg for assistance and get a rush of Federation support to prop it up.
Meanwhile, actual Federation citizens are left undefended, and in some cases, must resort to accepting Cardassian governorship...and these unsettled circumstances bring about a resistance to the Federation/Cardassian brokered peace via the Maquis.

What is the defining factor that changes the calculus on all this?

The Wormhole.

The strategic significance of the wormhole changes the entire principle of the Federation presence on DS9 and Bajor.

Sisko's mission changes from one of economic, political, and civil stabilizing, with a minor note of defense (3 runabouts, whoopie!)...

To flying the flag over what could become the most significant transportation conduit in the galaxy.

Without the wormhole, Sisko probably leaves as soon as the Circle movement proves the Bajorans are far too divided as a people to realistically achieve Federation membership criteria. But they struggle on...because of the wormhole.

Maybe if the Maquis had a wormhole, there would not be a Maquis.

 

@Jedimarine, It suddenly occurs to me that Starfleet could have offered the Maquis passage through the wormhole and settlement in the Gamma Quadrant as compensation for giving up their colonies in order to secure peace with the Cardassians.

 

I bet they did. The problem wasn't that there were no other options for the Federation citizens in the DMZ, it was that they refused to take them.

They had already taken a gamble on being colonists, had built homes and lives out there, where they thought the Federation would protect and support them.

But as we learned as far back as TNG: The Ensigns of Command with the Sheliak, the Federation will pull up sticks on a colony if it risks a treaty.

For the Maquis, it was worse, because the treaty was crafted while they were there.

In some ways, it is the ultimate play out of early Roddenberry "big picture" Trek vs. the more subtle "inner challenges" of Pillar Trek.

The Federation sees a galaxy of growth and potential. If the Cardassians need a buffer zone, send in a few ships, and we will move thousands upon thousands of people to another world elsewhere. With limitless resources, why ever constrain yourself to a place.

The Colonist see a home, a job, a favorite lake to fish in, memories of your children climbing those hills, turning that field into a harvest, building a company that exports something, who knows. The everyday lives people wake up and live...threatened...broken...just like in our world today.

At the end of TNG: The Ensigns of Command, once Data finally convinces them to leave, one of the colonists says "There are other places...other challenges"...that is "big picture" Trek. It is all about going on.

People are not all that way. Some people like their lives as status quo. Enjoy routines. Hold tight to things that hold nostalgic and sentimental value. Treasure things and places they think of as their own.

It is an alien concept to high minded Federation principles...likely guided by a fair dose of Vulcan logic...but it doesn't change what the colonists were willing to fight for.

In a world without need...what do you value? The Maquis show us even a future where we can go anywhere, there still is value in "home".

 

Wasn't the Phoenix attacking unarmed transports?

The Cardassian War has certainly been a case of inflation or deflation.

When the Cardassians were first introduced, they were kind of a "baddy of the week" one off. No one expected them to rival the Klingon/Romulan/Borg formula. It was chatter in the fanbase that kept them coming back, and really struck gold with DS9 and the Bajor story angle.

So as the species got more story, the "war" got more prominence, particularly with people involved.

We went from O'brien being somewhat uneasy with Cardassians in TNG, to having war flashbacks and deep-rooted PTSD in DS9. Different writers and different visions, but it was still growing.

Now that those stories have been told, it seems to be some revisionist work to clarify what it was and was not.

Was the Federation/Cardassian war a "hot" war...meaning there were campaigns and battles and real stakes...yes.

Was it on a scale of the Dominion War or even the Klingon/Cardassian War...no.

Perhaps the best way to think about it is to consider the Enterprise D itself...built during the Federation/Cardassian War. If the war was even a bit concerning to the Federation, one would think they would not be building a giant space cruise ship with a few phasers.

We know the Federation respond to threats...the Borg threat = Defiant.

Just the fact the Enterprise D was commissioned indicates the Cardassians were not considered a serious threat.

Which makes the ultimate treaty and DMZ and Maquis all the more puzzling (other then the writers made it so).