ST Rey Skywalker/Daisy Ridley Discussion Thread

I disagree a bit about Anakin being a nobody.
I think TPM goes out of its way to make him the special, special.
He can do what normal humans can not do, race pods. At age nine at that.
He is a tech wiz, again age nine.
He has the highest midi-count of all current Jedi, possibly of all Jedi ever.
He has no mortal father and so could be seen as a Demi-God or the Son of God.
And there is a prophecy about him.

So he made super important, now for who he is but what he is.

Some potential there.
Ben Solo is confident and maybe a bit arrogant, he is the nephew of Luke, he has a famous name, of course he is going to be the best at being a Jedi and of course Luke would favor him.
But if Rey instead does some things better than Ben and Luke shows more interest in her than him.
Then that can give rise to envy and jealousy. "Why does this girl from nowhere get all this attention and not me?"

One need to be careful not to overdo it as Ben could then be like a "Malfoy" and doing that would do a disservice to Han and Leia.
Ben could be lured down a dark path but not be as loathsome as he is in the ST.
And he maybe plays a part in the Jedi temple getting destroyed but that was not what he wanted and he feels terrible. He does not dare to go back home as he thinks his parents would view him with disgust but neither does he side with Snoke, as he feels used and exploited. So he sets off alone to try and fix thing. But he slowly realizes that this will not work and comes back.
So an antagonist and obstacle, not a hateful villain.

Are there other Skywalkers? That is possible. Say a younger sibling to Ben, that is more humble or maybe not interested in becoming a Jedi.

One example I though of is the Last Airbender animated series.
At the end of season one, Aang and Katara both train as waterbenders but their teacher notes that Katara works much harder than Aang and has improved a lot. While Aang has a lot of raw power but is goofing around. This does not set up any envy from Aang but it does show that a person from less "special" background can outdo someone with a bigger "name".

Another example, not really the same, is Loki from the first and second Thor films.
In the first he is jealous of Thor and how he is treated as more special while Loki thinks that Thor is a brute with too much brawn and far too little brains. So he schemes and plots.
He lashes out at Odin once he learns who he is but he still does care on some level. And the second film showed that he did care about his mother and did not react well to her being killed.
So he too went down a dark path but not just a loathsome villain.
There was some depth there and as such he became more interesting.

Kylo, as he is in TFA, is a villain that is there to be booed and hissed at. And the satisfaction would come from his downfall. He is not as repulsive as some other villains, like Ramsay in GoT, that I just wanted off the screen.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

You’re confusing nobody with being unspecial.

Anakin and the Skywalkers ARE nobodies. They are not related to anyone with influence or power. They’re not famous or worldly. They are slaves on a far off planet.

But nobodies can be very special. You don’t need to be of a famous family to change the world or be special.

 

I gotta agree with @Samuel Vimes.

The Star Wars narrative never truly frames Anakin or Luke Skywalker as "nobodies," despite their humble origins.

While Anakin begins as a slave child on Tatooine, the prequel trilogy immediately establishes him as exceptional. He's explicitly identified as "The Chosen One" - a prophesied figure destined to bring balance to the Force. As was said, Ttis messianic designation inherently makes him extraordinary from his introduction. Additionally, viewers likely approach the prequels with knowledge of Anakin's eventual transformation into Darth Vader, one of cinema's most iconic villains, further emphasizing his significance.

Similarly, Luke is never portrayed as truly ordinary. From the very first film, he's introduced as the son of Anakin Skywalker, described as a famous hero, pilot, Jedi knight, and veteran of the Clone Wars."This lineage immediately distinguishes Luke and foreshadows his importance to the saga. His heritage and potential are central to his character arc from the beginning.

I'll go one further... by the time we reach the prequel trilogy, Tatooine itself can no longer be considered some obscure, forgotten world. The planet has been established as the notorious domain of Jabba the Hutt, a powerful crime lord whose influence extends throughout the galaxy. Viewers also recognize it as Luke Skywalker's formative home world. This familiarity undermines any attempt to frame it as a truly remote backwater, further weakening the "nobody from nowhere" characterization.

Both characters may start in seemingly humble circumstances, but the narrative consistently frames them as exceptional individuals with profound destinies, not as genuine "nobodies" who rise from nothing.

 

Its absolutely part of the narrative. In fact you're thinking like Mace. Qui-gon remarks that they should have found Anakin much sooner, if he wasn't located on Tatooine. Mace is contemptuous with the entire notion that Anakin might be Chosen One. You think its...this boy.

Mace doesn't think Anakin is special enough to be the Chosen One because he's just a nobody. Some slave from some backwater planet. He assumes that the Chosen One would be ... special. That they would have found him from someplace ... important.

Again. Fans are equating being a nobody with specialness. They're not the same thing. The saga is literally about this. Anakin isn't part of some famous family. He's not connected to anyone important. He's not on some inner core world. He's not found by the Jedi until he's 'too old'. He's a slave on some back water planet run by Huts. And if not by 'luck' the Jedi would never have found him. Overlooked because there's lots of nobodies in the galaxy that do escape their notice.

And I never said anything about Luke. I never said either were ordinary. They're not. They're both incredible, special beings. I said Anakin was a nobody. Nobodies can be special. Nobodies can do great things. Nobodies can be chosen by the Force to fulfill the prophecy. And just because Anakin starts off as a nobody, it clearly doesn't mean he ends up that way. He creates one of the more important, and known, families in the galaxy through his actions (both good and bad)

 

You're conflating how certain characters perceive Anakin with how the narrative itself frames him for the audience. There's an important distinction between character perspective and narrative framing.

Yes, Mace Windu dismisses Anakin as unworthy of being the Chosen One. And yes, Qui-Gon acknowledges that Anakin's location on Tatooine kept him hidden from the Jedi. But these character perspectives don't define how the narrative positions Anakin for us as viewers.

From the audience's perspective, the films immediately establish Anakin as extraordinary. The very first episode centers around discovering this supposedly "ordinary" boy who:

• Has the highest midi-chlorian count ever recorded
• Was conceived by the Force itself (implied to have no biological father)
• Is explicitly called "The Chosen One" by the film's wisest character
• Is prophesied to bring balance to the Force

These narrative elements don't frame him as a "nobody" - they frame him as potentially the most significant being in the galaxy. The skepticism of characters like Mace actually serves to highlight Anakin's exceptional nature by creating dramatic tension around his destiny.

Additionally, audience knowledge that this "nobody" will become Darth Vader completely transforms how we perceive his character from his very introduction. We're never allowed to see him as truly ordinary.

Now, if you are arguing that Anakin wasn't widely known, or famous...sure. That's not the same as being "nobody." He is quite literally "The Chosen One". Kinda the opposite of being nobody No?

 

Again, if the Force is the "God" of this setting then Anakin could be seen as the "Son of God."
That makes him the relative of someone quite powerful and famous.
Just the fact alone that he has no mortal father would make him quite famous.
And he has a prophecy made about him.

And a film that has big Neon sign over Anakin saying, "THIS IS THE CHOSEN ONE, HE IS VERY SPECIAL!!!" I have a hard time accepting also saying "Anakin is a nobody."

Suppose that there was no prophecy and Anakin had a high but not super high midi count and Shmi got him the normal way. Would Qui-Gon be so determined to free him and train him as a Jedi?

In ANH, originally, Obi-Wan wanted to give Luke his father's lightsaber out of obligation to his old friend. Not because "Prophecy"!

"The Skywalkers"? Are you referring to Luke and Shmi?
If so, yes about Shmi but no to Luke. He is the son of a quite famous Jedi, "the best star pilot in the galaxy". And Luke was no slave.

But if we compare TPM and ANH and Anakin and Luke. Anakin was a slave yes but he was framed by the narrative as more "special", more unique. Luke had a famous father but lived a humble life. He was a good pilot but not exceptional. Anakin has super-human abilities and he knows it. He is aware that he can race pods and that no normal human can do that. And he has already taken part in some races and Watto took notice of him.
Luke has a famous father but Anakin has no mortal father and could be seen to have "God" as his father.
Which of the two would make them more noticed?
So I would say that of the two, Luke was far more the "Everyman" than Anakin.

Take our world of today and say that a nine year old kid manages to build his own race car and takes part in the Indy 500 and while he does not win, he gets pretty close. Even if that nine year old came from some backwater town in Nebraska, they would become "somebody" pretty quickly.
Add to that, this nine year old could say run at cheetah speed and that had been noticed by local faculties.
Again this "nobody" would become a "somebody" in short order.

Was Harry Potter a "nobody" in the books or films?
Not really. His parents were known but not super special.
But a prophecy came about and Harry became "The Boy who lived." So quite famous.
He himself did not know that until later so one could argue that he had "humble" origins but once he stepped into the wizarding world, he was far from a nobody.

Was Neo a nobody in the first Matrix film? He did not know of the Matrix and thought of himself as just a hacker that lived a mostly ordinary life. But he is sought out and labeled as "The ONE" and while he doubts it, it gets proven correct.

Sam in LotR is a nobody, an everyman. Han Solo could be seen as that. Marty McFly is an everyman.

So TPM makes Anakin into a "big deal". Far more than ANH does with Luke.
And the PT hints that becoming a Jedi is a thing for the "Genetic Elite" and that "mundanes" need not apply.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I guess you both don't get it. That's a shame.

Nobody is a social position. Its someone without influence or authority in society. Its how society looks at someone.

Anakin - the Skywalkers - start out as nobodies in the galaxy. They are slaves, living on a far remote criminal world. The Empire doesn't even go there. The Jedi didn't discover Anakin earlier because places like that are over looked.

Anakin has no importance or authority living on Tatooine. He has no connections to the famous. No wealth. No famous family. No one notices him.

But that doesn't mean he's not important. Because the Force has chosen him to bring forth the prophecy. And as soon as Qui-gon shows up, his fate changes, or his destiny is set into action. He then becomes "somebody". A known player in the galaxy. Someone others fear, admire, love, think about, and ... try to seduce.

That's it. That's the story. And it's the same thing with even other Messianic figures like say ... Jesus. He was a nobody too. The people during his time thought he couldn't possibly be the Messiah because he was just a nobody from Nazareth, born from poor parents, and nothing. How could God possibly choose such a nothing place? Surely the Messiah would come from greatness. Anything else is beneath God.

Right? Same exact thing. Jesus came form nothing. From absolute humble beginnings.

That's it. Being a nobody doesn't mean you're not special, or powerful, or even a god.

But if you don't want to look at that way...suit yourself. Rey Nobody could have worked just the same. Rey "BLANK" not connected to anyone famous. Not influential in politics. Not wealthy. Not socially positioned. And then realizes she has the Force, has a destiny, and her story changes. Seems pretty straightforward. Not sure why this is so contentious with some fans.

 

You claim "nobody" is purely a social position, but this oversimplifies both narrative framing and social status.

Even by your own definition, Anakin doesn't qualify as a "nobody" when we first meet him. He's already locally famous as the only human podracer in existence - a remarkable distinction that sets him apart. Watto recognizes his exceptional abilities and exploits them. He may lack galaxy-wide recognition, but he's certainly not anonymous or unremarkable within his community.

More importantly, the narrative immediately frames Anakin as cosmically significant. His miraculous conception, unprecedented midi-chlorian count, and connection to prophecy aren't just social markers - they're fundamental narrative signals of his extraordinary nature from his very introduction.

You're argument is hampered by that fact that you are only focusing exclusively on in-universe perspectives. Star Wars isn't just about how characters perceive each other within their fictional society - it's about how the narrative presents them to us, the audience. The films are constructed to ensure viewers never see Anakin as an ordinary person who surprisingly becomes special, but as someone inherently extraordinary from the start.

True narrative "nobodies" are characters like Samwise Gamgee or Han Solo - ordinary people whose heroism emerges from courage and character, not from being marked as exceptional from the start. Their specialness is revealed through their choices, not predetermined by prophecy or supernatural gifts.

 

As jaimestarr noted, Anakin at the start of TPM is somewhat famous. He takes part in races and is known as the only human that can do so. So he has certainly been noticed.

Also, when Anakin lived on Tatooine, the Empire did not exist.
When Luke lived there, the Empire could go there. We saw troopers down on Tatooine and in Mos Eisley.
And given that they seemed to know their way around and had local informers, there seemed to be some imperial presence there.

Again, Anakin has been noticed even before Qui-Gon finds him.
Had he not shown up, if Anakin took part of another race and managed to win. That would get him even more exposure.

The Force seemed to have done more than just choose him, it created him.
Anakin would not even exist had it not been for the Force deciding that he be born and he is born with a big Destiny.

A nobody I instead see as someone that decides to act on their own and forges their own destiny.
A person that has no built in powers or fate waiting for them. They make their own.

There are also lots of stories with lost sons of Kings that live humble lives but are really the heir to the Throne. Or they are the children of some famous hero but they do not know that.
Then one day, their destiny is revealed to them and they follow it.
Their humble origins does not make them nobodies when their blood or destiny marks them as special.

Harry Potter was a nobody in the muggle world but quite famous in the wizard world, but he did not know that. Is that enough to label him a nobody?

Not sure what your argument here is.
I said that Rey as a nobody could have worked and gave some ideas what to do with that.
I simply took issue with you label of Anakin as a nobody.
When the PT goes out of it's way to show how super special he is. Even more special than Luke.
He is the ONLY one that is capable of killing Palpatine according to some.
Hardly a nobody that.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

My argument is that nobodies have existed in SW, since someone up top argued that it has no place in the story.

Side point, Anakin might be known by a few - Watto - to race pods. But being the only human who can do it, still doesn't make him a somebody in the story. He's not. If he were the Jedi and Palpatine would have actively known about his existence and sought him out on purpose. Instead, they find him by luck or accident, or by the Force's will.

And even as somehow who occasionally races pods, and fails, or who even has local friends, he's still a nobody in the galaxy and in the larger story being told. The Skywalkers are not famous. Or with any influence or power. That's the definition.

But if you want to be against this ... so be it. Go for it. Before TPM, Anakin Skywlaker was the most famous Skywalker to have ever existed. People knew about him all over the galaxy. They had his trading cards. And knew he'd be the greatest Jedi ever.

 

Look, you're missing my point and moving the goalposts. I never said "nobodies" don't belong in Star Wars - I specifically argued that Anakin and Luke aren't presented as true "nobodies" in the story.

Being "the only human who can podrace" absolutely makes Anakin special! That's exactly what I'm saying. The movies immediately show him with superhuman abilities, a miraculous birth, and a prophecy about him. We never get a chance to see him as just some regular kid.

The Jedi finding Anakin wasn't just random luck - the whole movie frames it as the Force making it happen, which just reinforces his importance.

Your sarcastic bit about trading cards is setting up a fake argument. I never claimed Anakin was galaxy-famous before TPM - just that the story presents him as inherently special from the moment we meet him, which is totally different from a true "nobody" who surprisingly becomes important later.

Again, you keep focusing only on how famous he was in-universe before the story, but that's missing the whole point about how the narrative frames him for the audience.

 

Anakin and Luke are absolutely framed as kids who are perceived as ‘nothing special’, by those around them, but who then become ‘somebodies’…. that’s all part of their ‘heroes journey’. ‘Humble beginnings’ is absolutely baked in. It’s all part of why they are looking for more than their humdrum life on Tatooine. If that wasn’t framed as part of the narrative, then Anakin would have been the son of a lofty politician on Coruscant, or A New Hope would have had Luke be Prince Luke of Alderaan. That they come from a humble background, that they are, (to the casual observer) nothing remarkable… and that no one would suspect they’d be the saviour of the galaxy, is fundamental to their journey and how they are framed ‘within story’. That they become ‘somebodies’, and fulfill their potential (or destiny) is the point… and this is true of all similar fictional characters… be it Frodo Baggins, Peter Parker or Harry Potter. Typically the audience are in on the fact that these kids are going to become ‘special’, but usually (within story), they are downtrodden, have lowly positions or live mundane lives etc. until the call to arms.

 

No. Sorry. You just don't get it. Being a nobody has nothing to do with specialness. Why do you keep insisting this?

Definition:
Nobody - a person of no importance or authority.

Anakin and Luke are special. But they are also nobodies when their first movies start. Anakin living on Tatooine as a slave, is a nobody. One of millions who are also slaves. He isn't born out of some important politically connected or wealthy family in the galaxy. He has no authority over anything or anyone (literally as a slave with a bomb in him). He is overlooked by the Jedi, because the Jedi won't seem to come out this far. They only find him by sheer happenstance. (the force). Even when Padme says he's a slave, he's quick to correct that "hey I'm something more than that. I'm a person and my name is Anakin". Because society views him as a nobody.

Luke also living as a moisture farmer on Tatooine on a planet he describes as boring and remote and not the center of anything, shows us that he too believes he's just a nobody. His father was just a navigator. Nothing of importance to anyone (except to Luke). Then he finds out very quickly that his father was actually a somebody, a very important Jedi, who was powerful, had authority, and played a big part in the larger story. Luke finds out this, and then accepts his journey and realizes his family was powerful in the Force and the rest is history.

You are applying concepts to the term, and seem to inherently think its also something negative. It's not. Its just their social position, or how their society largely sees them, at the start of their journey. Nothing more.

Nobodies can obviously be special, and typically in these kinds of stories they set out to show the world just how special they actually are, and in doing so become 'somebodies'. Which is again, is how their society views them. Society now sees their talents, they become famous, they have importance to the larger social story, and have some/more authority in that world.

But I give up. Cuz this is now going nowhere.

 

You keep contradicting your own definition. You say "Nobody - a person of no importance or authority," yet by your own admission, Anakin is "special" and "the only human who can podrace." That's literally being a person of importance! Being uniquely capable among all humans is the opposite of being a "nobody."

The narrative doesn't allow the audience to see Anakin as unimportant for even a single scene. As soon as we meet him, there's talk of prophecy. When we do meet him, he's immediately shown doing what no other human can do. Qui-Gon instantly recognizes his significance. The narrative frames him as extraordinarily important from the first moment.

Luke is similarly framed as important from the start. The droids specifically find him. Obi-Wan has been watching over him. The Death Star plans come to him. These aren't coincidences - they're narrative signals of his importance.

You claim I'm "applying concepts to the term," but you're the one trying to force a definition that contradicts the actual storytelling. In both cases, the films immediately establish these characters as significant through dialogue, plot devices, and supernatural elements.

You're also creating a false timeline. The "nobody discovers they're special" moment happens within minutes of screen time for both characters. The narrative never allows the audience to believe either character is truly ordinary for any meaningful length of time.

If your definition of "nobody" is so elastic that it includes "the only human who can do X" and "person with a cosmic prophecy about them," then the term has lost all useful meaning in narrative analysis.

 

Sigh. I guess you really don't get it. I thought maybe you were just playing internet games. Doubling down on something because you went down that track and don't want to easily reverse course.

Bolded: No I'm not. You're not reading here. My definition of nobody comes from the dictionary. That's what it literally says. You are the one inventing other meanings.

The galaxy knows nothing of Anakin Skywalker before TPM. He's not even famous on Tatooine, outside of the very few people that know him. Luke lives nearby 20 years alter, by the same last name, and never once does anyone see him, hear his last name, and go "Your father was the only human to race pods, We was a slave and won his freedom by winning Boonta Eve Race. Then he left with some Jedi one day".

Anakin became somebody during the events of TPM. He chooses to help and starts his journey into importance in the larger galactic story/society.

You are attaching pre-importance because you are the viewer, who knows Anakin is the star and is very important. You are not the galaxy.

I'll say it again. Being special HAS nothing to do with being a nobody. What is hard about this for you? A nobody can absolutely be talented and powerful and still be a nobody. It has to do with social standing, that's it.

Anakin is special. Even when we first meet him. He is also a nobody when the story starts. Which by the way,. starts 40 minutes before we're even introduced to him. The galaxy is buzzing about and has no clue about Anakin Skywalker or his losing pod races.

Luke is a Skywalker, but is also raised to think he's a nobody. Because he's in hiding. He doesn't think he's somebody and yearns for adventure and a life of importance. He scoffs at the idea that his father was a famous Jedi, when he believes he was just a nobody space navigator. As soon as he realizes the truth, he accepts the journey because he wants that life. A life of importance. Not one living as a nobody farmer on Tatooine.

Leia, by contrast is already a somebody when we first meet her. She has no idea about true family, nor her powers, and yet is a somebody in the galaxy. That's because she was raised in a prominent senatorial household, and is politically connected, and is leading the rebellion on its most important mission.

Han is also a somebody when we already meet him. He flies the fastest ship in the galaxy, is chased by bounty hunters, and owes debts to gangsters.

Anakin and Luke both crave this adventurous important life. Both are taught that its not all cracked up to be. Both have innate talents and powers, and both start out as social nobodies.

Not that hard. And if you don't see this, honestly, I kind of feel bad for you. You've missed such an obvious and yet fundamental aspect of the story.

 

The condescension is unnecessary. I understand your definition perfectly - but you're confusing "social status" with "narrative nobody."

You're conflating two entirely different concepts: low social status/lack of fame versus how a character is framed within a narrative. A true narrative "nobody" is someone presented as genuinely ordinary, without predestined greatness, who becomes special through choices rather than inherent exceptional qualities.

Anakin and Luke are never framed this way. From their first appearances, the narrative immediately establishes them as exceptional:

For Anakin:

1. He's introduced doing something no other human can do (podrace)
2. He has unprecedented midi-chlorian count
3. He's potentially conceived by the Force itself
4. He's the subject of a major prophecy

For Luke:

1. The story positions him as the son of a "great Jedi"
2. The droids specifically find him with the Death Star plans
3. Obi-Wan has been watching over him for his entire life
4. His Force potential is immediately recognized

These aren't qualities of a "narrative nobody" - they're explicit signals to the audience that these characters are fundamentally extraordinary from the start.

Your comparison to Han Solo actually proves my point. Han is a true narrative "nobody" - introduced as socially connected but not predestined or supernaturally gifted. His importance comes from choices and actions, not cosmic significance established from his introduction.

I'm not "attaching pre-importance" - the films do this through explicit storytelling devices. When a character is immediately framed as having supernatural abilities and cosmic destiny, they're not positioned as a narrative "nobody" regardless of their social status.

If you insist on being condescending rather than engaging with the actual argument, maybe reflect on who's really missing something fundamental here.

 

Personally speaking, I found Finn’s development absolutely and disappointingly absent in all 3 films. He at least has some utility in TFA, utility that he is never really afforded in either TLJ or TROS. But he’s established quite early on in the trilogy as a fawning sidekick when he gets smitten with Rey, and he never really moves beyond that role IMO. Him being an ex stormtrooper (and all that would entail) isn’t progressed or evolved in any film, he just becomes a quasi-comic sidekick… and that’s the real issue IMO.

 

Why the unfriendly tone?
It is simply a disagreement.
I just think that the story of the super-special, messianic, prophesied, divinely created chosen one does not fit as the story of a nobody.

Why the silly binary?
Either someone is a nobody or they are the most famous person in the galaxy?
Are there no in-between? A person is pretty well-known locally but on the galactic scale a nobody.

Is Obi-Wan at the start of TPM a nobody?
If he famous across the galaxy? Hardly.
So a nobody then?

Authority I can agree with, Luke and Anakin does not have that at the start.
But importance? That is broad term, importance in what way, to whom?
Anakin is the chosen one, the one to save the galaxy from darkness.
How is he unimportant? He would be the most important person alive as he is the ONLY one that can bring balance. If he dies, the galaxy is screwed.

The author, through the narrative and the characters very quickly establishes Anakin is the special, special. That he has a destiny and how important he is.

Suppose that there was no prophecy, no chosen one and Anakin had a high but not unheard of midi-count.
Would Qui-Gon still be so interested in him? Would he go out of his way to free Anakin and take him to be trained as a Jedi?
Qui-Gon, to me, was interested in Anakin because of what he was, not who he was. And what Anakin was, is the Chosen One. And Anakin was always the Chosen One regardless if the Jedi knew about it.

With Anakin, society has seen his talents before TPM begins, his ability to be a human and able to race pods. So he would be somewhat known on Tatooine and since the races have people from other worlds, they too might know about this human boy that is able to do what no other human can do, race pods.
Not enough to make him famous all over the galaxy but enough that a number of people know about him.
So if we compare Anakin with Luke, Anakin would be better known than Luke at the start of the story.
Luke has a more famous name and outside of Tatooine, that could get him some attention. Good or bad.

Take the quite common trope of the farm-boy that is actually the heir to the throne of some Kingdom.

Say that they do not know it but when a person passes by the farm and sees their birthmark and go, "Oh, you are the heir to the throne, come with me, your crown awaits." And they do and become King.
The farm-boy did not have to do very much, he was the heir, had always been the heir and that was enough.
So does he fit the label of a nobody?

If instead, the farm-boy knows but others do not know that they are the heir and is just waiting to go to the capitol and claim their throne. Is that a nobody?

Say instead this farm-boy is nobody special but his home is attacked and his family killed. He leaves, travels a lot, learns to fight and becomes good at it. Then some years later he comes across the King, who has been ambushed by bandits and he leaps in and saves the King. The King is very grateful and takes him along. Over time, they become close and farm-boy proves his worth many times over. The King has no heir and decides to name the farm-boy the next King.
So he becomes King by what he has done rather than just by the manner of his birth.

To bring this back to SW and the ST.
Of the three, Anakin, Luke and Rey, Rey could be seen as the one "worst" off. Yes Anakin is a slave with a bomb inside him but he has a loving mother, a house and is able to have fun and do what he likes to do.
Luke has a house, he has chores but can also spend time with his friends. His biggest enemy seems to be boredom.
Rey is alone, no house and has to looks for scraps in order not to starve.
Rey is the only one without a last name, at least it isn't said in TFA.
But is she presented as a Nobody in TFA?
Not really as the lack of a name was by design to make people wonder who she really was, her strength in the Force fueled that talk. So the talk became "Ok, who is she really?"

ANH had Luke with the farm-boy trope and his father was not a King but someone fairly important.
His fathers friend had been watching over Luke for a long time, waiting.
So when his home is destroyed, he answers to call to adventure.
TPM, since it was made after the OT, the audience knew Anakin beforehand and what would become of him. So he is already a "big deal" before we meet him. But when we do, more things are added. Anakin has no mortal father, he can do what other humans can not do, he has the highest midi-count ever and there is apparently a prophecy about him. So he is made even more special.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

The narrative for the OT and PT respectively, is not about how framing Luke and Anakin as being "well known locally". That has absolutely nothing to do with the 'heroes journey' that Lucas is attempting to take the audience, and characters, on. That they are depicted as being 'nobody's' is a bit of a blunt term... but it's figurative not literal right? Everybody is somebody to someone right (?)... The point is that they are of low status.... and Anakin is depicted as lowly a status as is usually possible in modern/Western mythology/storytellling i.e. a slave. In universe, no one is expecting Anakin and Luke to be important or significant players in galactic events... other than the characters who are in the know (Obi-Wan/Yoda). That's the point. They are of low status, insignificant to those around them (who know no different) and don't have access to the social mobility that exists within the fictional universe. For example, there's a reason why Luke is a farmboy in the middle of nowhere, as opposed to a prince on Corsucant.

I imagine @DarkGingerJedi is just getting a bit frustrated at the prevalence of the amount of jumping through hoops to defend create decisions/character choices in TFA/ST. We all know what's being put forward here.

 

Obi-wan isn't a nobody at the start of TPM. When did I say that? He's an established and important padawan, training along side one of the most esteemed (although contentious) Masters in the Jedi Order, with a role to play in the larger story, and is going on important politically connected missions from before even the movie starts.

I said the Skywalkers are nobodies at the start of their own stories-. Anakin is, and Luke is made to believe he is for specific reasons. That's it.

This is absolutely figurative. Being a nobody doesn't mean that literally no one knows you. That's not what the definition even describes. (Unless you're making up your own definition) It says being of no importance or having no authority. Both Skywalker hero characters are nobodies because they have no role in the galaxy yet / at the start of their respective stories. They are not important yet (or again, think that they are not important) They're not famous yet. They are not involved in the larger fight or story. They have no authority over anything, or over anyone.

Through the story, usually fairly quickly, the both accept the call to action to join the larger story that has been going on without them. They learn about their true nature or family connection and use the talents they had all along, or train or harness them to become very important, famous, and having authority in their society.

I'm honestly not sure where the dusagreement here is from ST fans. Seems pretty basic stuff. Why does it seem like its taken as some slight. Some insult to the characters to call them nobodies. It's really not. It's just their starting point. Our Skywalker protagonists are not Kings and Queens, or Generals. Or Masters. The Skywalker heroes start at the very bottom and work their way up the pole. That's how a hero character generally gets their arc. Well, at least good ones anyway.

And like it or not, Rey too generally speaking starts off as a nobody, even in a story written by people who have no idea what their doing. Mostly because they're aping Luke's journey. She's obviously more important than she or anyone knows. But her status is 100$ nobody in the larger story going on around her.

And yeah, its a bit frustrating when some fans bend over backwards and purposefully distort common definitions just to bend a knee to the ST. And I mean that figuratively, in case anyone here is confused by that term as well.

 

Except this has NOTHING to with any defense of the ST/TFA. I actually agreed withDarkGingerJedi about how Rey nobody could be used in a hypothetical ST. I just disagreed with the notion that Anakin was a nobody in TPM. And I gave my reasons. That right away Anakin is made super special, he can do what no other human can do, his midi-count is super high, he is the chosen one and he might have been created by the Force. And if the Force is seen as the "God" of this setting then Anakin is a DemiGod or the Son of God.
And that I do not think is a nobody in a story.

But instead of an open discussion, the tone got quite unfriendly and I got questioned how I can possibly have this opinion and how there must be something wrong with me for thinking this.

So the ST does not matter here.
The question is, does TPM present Anakin as a nobody in terms of narrative, other characters and the Universe?
I do not think so. He can do things other humans can not do and others know about it. He has no mortal father, there is a prophecy around him, his Force potential is higher than anyone.
This is instead the author making the point in big neon letters "ANKIN IS SUPER IMPORTANT!"
Does Anakin himself know that he has no mortal father?
If he does, I would think that would make him wonder that he is not like other people.
That he is not "ordinary".

About Anakin, Qui-Gon quite quickly thinks that Anakin is capable of great things.
And he makes the point that had Anakin been born in the Republic, he would have been noticed for how special he is much sooner. So once the Jedi and the Sith become aware of Anakin, he is of interest to them. And that is just because of what he is. Not really what he has done.

About Luke, suppose that Luke really was a prince but he did not know that because he had been taken as an infant and somehow ended up on Tatooine, raised by Owen and Beru. Is he still a nobody?
He is a prince but is ignorant of that.
And suppose that quite quickly Luke is told about him being a prince and he goes there and takes up the crown and all that. Does he still fit the bill of a nobody? And say that Obi-Wan has always know he was a prince and was just waiting for the right time to tell Luke this.

You mentioned Harry Potter earlier.
Harry Potter himself does not know he is a wizard yes and his life is quite mundane, very in fact since he sleeps under the stairs.
But a wizard he is and in the wizarding world, he is very famous and has been since he was an infant.
"The boy who lived." So when he meets people in that world, they know him right away and he is a big deal. That to me does not fit with a nobody. Harry Potter does need to do anything and the people in the wizarding world still sees him as special. That he does not know how much of a somebody he is, to me, does not make him a nobody in the narrative or the universe.

Or take Arthur in the first part of the film Excalibur. He is the son of Uther and destined to be King but he does not know that. He thinks that he is the son of Ector and is the squire to Ector's older son, Kay.
So is he a nobody?

Since you argued a binary, either you are the most famous person in the galaxy or you are a nobody.
No other options allowed.
So that is why I asked.
Obi-Wan is not famous in the whole galaxy so does that make him a nobody?

Or are there in-fact in-betweens?
That a person can be fairly well known locally but less so on a large scale.
Frodo Baggins was quite well known in the Shire and while certainly less well known in the larger world, there would be places where he could go and be recognized. Rivendell, Dale and the Lonely Mountain.
There people would know him because of Bilbo.

Again, Anakin is the destined savior of the galaxy, how does that not make him important?
If the OT is watched after the PT, then Luke and Leia are the children of the Chosen One and assumed to be very strong in the Force and Obi-Wan and Yoda are just waiting for the time when these two "new hopes" would emerge.

But again, if Anakin had not been the chosen one and there was no prophecy and he was just a regular kid with an above than usual Force potential. Would Qui-Gon make all this effort to free him and take him along? If not and suppose Anakin won the race and suppose that Qui-Gon thanked him, gave him the money from the pod and then they left. Anakin would still be on Tatooine.
But because he was somebody, the divinely created savior of the galaxy, now Qui-Gon is interested.

Would Obi-Wan watch over Luke if he was not Anakin's son?

What does the ST have to do with if Anakin in TPM is a nobody or not? If the ST did not exist and you made this argument, I would still disagree. Because what matters here is how the narrative frames Anakin in TPM.
And I think that it does not frame his as a nobody.
You are the one who seems to be offended that I dare to think that the narrative in TPM paints Anakin as someone special as opposed to a nobody.

But the many times mentioned and lamented "mystery boxes" around Rey paints the idea that she is more than what we know. And that was by design, to make the audience think she was someone.

Had TFA been made with Rey with say the last name, Donato and we see her parents and they are no one important and Rey is just a scavenger and nothing else.
But she finds out she is strong in the Force and decides to involve herself in the fight on we go.
That was totally possible.
But for TLJ to try and make Rey a nobody given TFA as it is, does not work that well.
Instead it came across as subverting expectations.
If they wanted just Rey that is quite doable but they should have done that from the start.

An non-SW example that I thought of is Taran in the Prydain series.
In the first book, he an assistant Pig-keeper and has dreams of being someone big and famous.
In the first book, they find an ancient sword with some writing that says "Do not drawn this sword unless you are son of a King." or some such. Towards the end, Taran has his own sword broken and in desperation he pulls that sword. In many stories this would be the moment where he discovers that he really is someone special. But instead the sword burns his hand and he is knocked out.
The series does a pretty good job with Taran and him wanting to find out about his past and how he dreams that is of noble blood and all that. He struggles with that but eventually is fine with being just Taran and he does not need to be some lost heir to the throne.
At the last, he is in fact revealed to be just that but that comes at the end of the story. And the few people that suspected this were far from certain. Taran proved it just at the end.

Except, as I said above, this has nothing to do with any defense of the ST/TFA. What is frustrating is that you just leaped to that assumption and the tone got unpleasant.
I do not think this discussion will get us any further and if the general unfriendly tone continues, I see little reason to take part in it.

Bye!

 

I’m only going to respond to the points I think pertinent…

Yes he’s that until his identity is revealed and he goes on the quest. He starts in the ‘ordinary world’ and must travel to the ‘extraordinary world’ as part of his journey. You seem to think that this is something fixed and entrenched. It’s not. The monomyth/hero’s journey is all about the hero going on a quest or ‘journey’ and coming back changed/enlightened etc. They typically don’t stay as they were… although they ‘return’ to the ‘ordinary world’ as Harry, Bilbo and Frodo do (the clues in the title ‘journey’).

Also, it’s typical within the monomyth/hero’s journey that a character/characters know the ‘potential’ or ‘lineage’ of the hero in question. This can be the ‘guide’ or ‘mentor’ figure. That the potential of the hero is something hidden or revealed is the pertinent point in this kind of story. This is very prevalent in Star Wars. Within universe/story, the hero starts in the ‘ordinary world’ and is typically of low status/significance until the call to arms reveals their identity, potential etc. etc.
That’s as true in the ST as it is in the OT/PT… it’s just that the ST does it really badly and doesn’t really know where and how to make and take the ‘reveal’. It’s not done organically, and is, I suspect, the result of multiple writers not being committed to any one idea.

Yes. He’s that to others… until his metamorphosis.

 

This is also part of ANH's story as well. We start off pretty mundane. Sure it's giant space ships and Vader and laser guns. But when we get to Tatooine, what we're presented at first is pretty ordinary. The desolation. The homestead. The farm. It's all meant to resemble a more familiar rural environment that we - the audience - know. Luke is bored. He's living far away from the center of anything exciting. He yearns for another life. His friends are going to the academy, having adventures and will start their lives to being whoever they want to be. Luke is stuck.

Then he meets the droids. Then Obi-wan. His guardians are killed. He accepts the call to adventure, and we immediately visit the Cantina. Here we see the odd and strange. Aliens of all sorts. Pilots. Weird beasts. Dangerous criminals. Luke's world is suddenly opening up to the extraordinary.

Now does that mean that Luke never saw an alien before? No. But in the story, as its being told to us through the visual medium, we're being told that Luke lives an ordinary life. He's a nobody at this point, from essentially no where. The story that he wants to belong to, the adventure that he craves is happening without him, and without even knowing him. And that was done on purpose so he didn't know the truth about who his father really was, or what really went down. Because he's too much like his dad and that could be trouble. And now he's on the path, on the road, in a ship, to finding that life.

I still can't believe that some fans don't see this, or are determined to not seeing this, or are arguing against this as if we're insulting Luke in someway by coming him a nobody at the beginning. As you've mentioned, this is absolutely standard stuff for this type of story and is in so many other fantasy stories from Harry Potter, to LOTRs. Hell, even the Goonies its the same thing. They start off as nobodies, accept the call to adventure, and through the harrowing ordeal, end up growing up, discovering themselves, finding the treasure and saving their homes, and being celebrated on the news.

What happens at the end of ANH? Luke - the kid that no one knew yesterday - is being given an award in front of of the entire rebellion for blowing up the DS. Welcome to the party kid. And what happens after? The Empire is chasing him down.

 

Pretty simple fairytale stuff really isn't it. A story beat thats as old as time itself. Someone with seemingly no future, no prospects, living in a boring world is catapulted into a wider extraordinary universe where he realises his talents and becomes a hero (or eventually the villain in the case of Anakin).