ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

I have worked with sheep. I mean real sheep. I know its hard to tell them a part. I also know how to tell them a part. But none of this is important. You are over stretching the point. How many of these guys do you think matter? If one of those guys just ran away, would the system fall a part to the point of fear and obsession?



Including the ones at the very far back. including 3rd to the right, 4 line down. Can't zoom in but he is there.

Another example if you want to be picky. Pawns of a chess board. there are more of them. The pawns go first. But they are ultimately used for sacrifice. This is not about morals, this is just their job

Vader would bring stormtroopers to stand in front, murder them if he felt angry enough, as he has done in the comics apparently, and then no one would even notice those guys were gone. To the point you wonder if it was worth the job.

 

Id say trying to make Finn this important figure is driven by a fair amount of insecurity. It takes a lot of gymastics to find reason in which this one storm trooper can have such an impact. When really it probably was never about that with Finn. He was the underdog who is thrown from storm trooper to being a rebel. Its pretty much spelt out when its described he worked in maintenance and bragged to Phasma that he was in charge now.

Even in TROS when they arrive on the star destroyer they ask Finn where too? And he says no idea. Why doesnt this guy know? Did they change everything aroind since he escaped because of all the secrets he knows? Or did Finn has to be just as in the dark to up the stakes for them as rebels?

 

Thrown suggests a big leap from one place in life to another. Where he ended up wasn't planned by Finn, its just ultimately where it went and is adjusting to it.

 

You're talking about being expendable. Which, again, is not the same thing. The Empire has so many troopers, and each is easily replaceable, that they don't care if they lose one.

But Sheep are expensive and yield profits. If a Shepard loses one, they don't just go "Eh well, Whatever. Just a freakin' sheep. Send in the next one". No. They go looking for it, because every damn sheep to a farmer/shepard is important. Jesus freaking Christ, this was even in the bible. Every single one is important. And you would know that right, Master Shepard?

A Human or a sheep is a 'sheep' because it follows blindly the herd. It doesn't think for itself. Not because they all look the same. Have the same wool. Or the same uniform.

The Empire lacks and hates individuality. They seek conformity. So they dress everyone up to look the same, according to caste system. But guess what? It still doesn't work. It still doesn't hide the fact that in every incarnation the troopers show their individuality. They know each other on a personal level. Some are clones who think for themselves. Some are hired mercs. Some are programmed and still break free.

In TFA troopers running away because they're scared of Kylo's tantrum. Sheep wouldn't do that. They'd just stand there and follow the Shepards orders without thinking.


Here, in your amazing TLJ, is a group of troopers who know about Finn, by his face, and praise him for rising in rank. They even slap his but in congratulations. That's not sheep behavior. Sheep don't think about their orders or their 'place' in the ranks.


Oh no. Here come the First Sheep Order. They're gonna kill us all.

 

They are expendable because they have many others. thats kinda the point. And none of them stand out because they all look the same. White armour. If you only had a few then they would mean more. but when you have around maybe 600 troops. I ain't going to count how many are in that TFA image but there is a lot. Then they are least likely to care when one goes missing.

Considering troops are sent out for war. Chances are they are going to be killed. And chances are they won't get a funeral. Will the first order even notice? Do they even care? Do the storm troopers care more about each other than the higher up do? likely yeah.

If say, in comparison you herd 600 sheep through a forest of wolves, and then you find you have less than you did before... you probably won't even notice what ones have been taken by wolves. If the quantity is high, then you worry less about the ones missing.

 

Again.

"Sheep" is not about size of the herd. Nor is about uniforms or style.

It's about blindly following and obeying, without thinking. Like a sheep does when it follows with a shepherd.

They are expandable because of the size of the fleet, and because the Empire is evil and views them impersonally, but that's not what being called a sheep is about. Shepherds care about their sheep. They care about their flock. They don't want their sheep to die.

You are soo....off on everything.

 

I have never once mentioned Kylo Ren. all these mentions of Kylo are all you guys making assumptions that you have to base an opinion on bias. Which in doing so really makes you guys seem like the insecure ones trying to reflect that same bias onto me. Im not thinking about Kylo Ren at all when i come to any conclusion about Finn. I could not care less about this dumb fan created feud going on between the 2 characters. But neither am i going to inflate this believe that Finn was set up for something that doesn't really add up just to make you guys feel better about your side of this feud.

 

Uh, sorry for missing all the sheep talk everyone. Do I want to read over it all?

I'm not saying "change your mind" - I'm just acknowledging that forums represent a subset of fandom, which adds context to our discussions. When I mention diverse perspectives, it's not to invalidate critiques but to recognize Star Wars resonates differently with different people.

As far as this space goes/this particular forum....Those of us who genuinely enjoy the newer films rarely get space in these discussions to talk about what we love about them. Our positive perspectives often get overshadowed by the more critical voices here. I'd love more opportunities to have enthusiastic conversations about elements we appreciate in these movies, rather than always finding ourselves in a defensive position about why we enjoy them. I'm not saying people have to gusgh all over these films, but no one seems genuinely interested in the other side of the coin. That might just be the nature of the beast with online discussion these days

 

Thats seems very short sighted. If thats the only way someone can have a particular opinion is if its based on another character.

Believe me, you do not

 

Not really because it's literally in the movie.

 

Daxon has their special reasons for thinking that the one stormtrooper in the entire saga who takes his helmet off and show's his FACE and then defects and helps the resistance to blow up SKB ... isn't important.

 

How did Finn humiliate Kylo? Kylo literally slashed Finn into a coma. It was Rey that humiliated Kylo by actually defeating him, not Finn. This is why Snoke mentions it in a mocking way in TLJ - "bested by a girl who never held a lightsaber!". Notice how Snoke never mentions Finn cause most in the First Order don't care about Finn

Comparing Finn to Han doesn't make much sense. The two are nothing alike and Finn is nowhere near as iconic and popular as Han became after the OT. Han was shown as a street-smart sauve guy right from his first scene. Han had the Falcon and an interesting sidekick like Chewie. Meanwhile Finn doesn't even have a name, can't fly a ship, keeps losing fights. Han got with Leia the princess while Finn got with some random girl Jannah. Han ends ANH with a medal, Finn ends TFA in a coma lol.

The difference between the two is massive. Han felt like a co-lead equal to Luke while Finn felt like a sidekick to Rey without anything cool going for him.

 

I’m comparing them in terms of how they are significant supporting characters to *the* central lead protagonist, and how they support/facilitate the journey of that central lead. I’m *not* comparing them in terms of character/personality traits or physical characteristics, but their function within story. This really shouldn’t be difficult to wrap your head around.

You should also explain why you think Han felt like a co-lead in ANH, whilst Finn felt like a sidekick.

 

I understood that, I'm saying that they are not equal in their relations to the main character. Han was way more popular at the end of ANH than Finn at the end of TFA. Clearly Han was treated way better by the writers.

I already did that in the previous post. Han was given a lot better dialogue, he was written as confident and save as opposed to Finn who was written to be a bumbling scared fish out of water. Han was given certain things (Falcon, Chewie) to compensate for his lack of force abilities, Finn is given nothing to compensate for his.

 

TFA:
GENERAL HUX (CONT'D)
We're checking the registers now to identify which Stormtrooper it was.

KYLO REN
... The one from the village. FN-2187.

Hux is unnerved that Ren knows -- he chalks it up to Ren's Force ability. Kylo Ren heads off.

Later on...
INT. STAR DESTROYER MAIN BRIDGE - DAY
Captain Phasma and General Hux stand before a holographic projection detailing FN-2187's service records.

CAPTAIN PHASMA
FN-2187 reported to my division, was evaluated and sent to Reconditioning.

GENERAL HUX
No prior signs of non-conformity?
(CONTINUED)
(CONTINUED)
CAPTAIN PHASMA
This was his first offense.​

Three of the highest ranking officers in the FO hat we see on screen (Hux, Phasma, and Kylo Ren) are all concerned about FN-2187 and now know him by his number name. They're worried that he's broken his programming and is showings signs of on non-conformity. Which implies is a THING that they worry about. Hux is silently unnerved that Kylo Ren knows who this faceless trooper is, and chalks it up to the Force, because anything otherwise would be suspect of Kylo Ren.

Later on in TLJ, we see other random troopers recognize Finn by his face, who's wearing an officers uniform in an elevator, and congratulate him for rising in rank to Officer. They slap his but, like friendly comrades do. In that same movie, Phasma promises to put Finn back into reprogramming as a threat. And because it looks bad on her that even one single trooper defected.

If no one in the FO cared about the troopers, none of this would have happened.

Tell us, if the FO didn't care about Finn, even as a lowly trooper, why would they spend even a second remembering his number, his face, his history? Why would Phasma spend even a second chasing down renegade troopers, who broke their programming and best her? Why would the FO seem to have a back up plan to maybe using clones because they're worried the training isn't working.

And lastly, Kylo Ren is humiliated because Kylo Ren is an insecure selfish emotionally stunted brat. He wants to be seen as powerful and in charge, but he has emotional outbursts and tantrums like a baby. So of course this kind of character is going to feel extremely threatened when he messes up or looks foolish. When some kidnapped slave stromtrooper gets the best of the situation and everyone can plainly see that Kylo Ren is not Vader.

 

Ah. Figures.

 

I was quite clear in my previous post. I'm comparing the *functionality* of those two characters within story. I'm not remotely talking about their relative popularity external to the film. That Han Solo is, IMO, an infinitely better written and realised character, in an infinitely better film (vis a vis the OT/ST), is not the point being made.

Those elements have absolutely nothing to do with the function of Han Solo and Finn as supporting characters... and Han Solo was certainly not written as the lead protagonist of ANH... that was Luke Skywalker. If you're stating that 'bumbling', and 'scared' are the main attributes of a sidekick, then I'd argue that your imagination is no better than those whom conceived and wrote the ST.