CT Did Lucas know Darth was Luke's father in ANH?

What's with people bashing Lucas because he didn't have the entire Star Wars saga written out perfectly since day one? You do realize that script rewrites HAPPEN ALL THE TIME and is perfectly normal...script rewrites even happen on the set while shooting..too much dispositions towards Lucas are misplaced...it's like you all want to convince yourselves that he had nothing to do with star wars and that him taking credit for it is a huge conspiracy..very sad

 

I think GL was brilliant in the way he did the OT... I mean, ANH could've been a stand alone movie if needed and he did it on purpose incase the money didn't start pouring in and the movie flopped. Think about it, the story COULD be wrapped up at the end of ANH; the death star is destroyed, Tarkin's dead, DV's lost in space, and Luke the average farm boy became the hero Obi Wan wanted him to be. I don't think he had all three movies (or six, or nine) clearly written in his head. Probably the skeleton of the plot, but I'm not 100% sure that he was entirely set on the fate of Luke's father, thus why ANH was wrapped up as tight as it was as insurance.

I think the line "he has too much of his father in him" simply meant to refer to the fact that it was established Luke's father was a Jedi, a hero, a skilled pilot, and followed Obi Wan on "crazy adventures." They made him sound reckless and lively, if Luke has those qualities, well he's just not suited for the farmer lifestyle.

I don't think GL had it mapped out in his head, no matter what he says, and that's OK, because he did see the connection that could occur and went with it without missing a beat. It was simply a matter of "Darth Vader's a fallen Jedi who turned to the dark side of the force and was a student of Obi Wans" and "Luke's father was a heroic Jedi who was killed, and also a student of Obi Wans." Not once was it said in the OT that a Jedi Master only had one student, so Darth Vader and Luke Starkiller's father could've been comrades both taught under Obi.

We'll never know though, 'cause GL likes to say tons of things and change his mind constantly.

 

Not sure who you are directing this comment at.
I wrote this for ex.

The argument is about what plot points Lucas had in mind when he made the first film and what came later. The people on my side argue that Lucas didn't have everything mapped and changed things as he went along. But that isn't intended as a bash or anything. Stories grow and evolve, that is clear. And many, including myself, think that the Father Vader plot twist was very good.

The people we argue against are the ones who are convinced that Lucas had almost everything mapped out from day one. That Star Wars was always "The Tragedy of Darth Vader."
Lucas had Vader as Luke's father from the word go and any evidence to the contrary is either Lucas spreading disinformation to preserve his big twist or due to a writer that was, "old, incompetent" and "Lucas hired her because he was sorry for her". And Lucas also lied and mislead her for pretty much no reason. So the conspiracy mostly comes from them. That Lucas knew he had such a great twist in Vader being Luke's father that he went to great length to keep it secret. He wrote scripts that said the opposite, he lied to his co-workers and he misled his script writer for ESB.
I don't believe that, I think that Vader became Luke's father in the second draft of ESB and I don't Lucas would mislead his script writer or lie to the people he worked with back then.

Lucas himself has argued that he had Vader as the father from the very start and we question the validity of that claim. Some of the early scripts of ANH have Vader and Luke's father as separate people and even the first draft of ESB had that. Plus various Lucas quotes from back in the day where he talks about Obi-Wan, Vader and Luke's father.

To sum up, I argue that the story and characters of SW grew and evolved over time. What they were at the start and how they ended up changed a lot. And this is not any kind of bash against Lucas. This is generally how writing works. You start and then story and characters take on a life of their own as you go along. And Vader being Luke's father was one such thing. Vader didn't start out as Luke's father but he became that. And this was a good twist.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Hello, all...

I'd like to comment on this thread. First off, I was the 'TOSCHESTATION' poster from years back. My views have changed a lot since then. Now to my main point: The common thread I see in this argument (I also have a similar thread going in the Star Wars Saga In-Depth, "The Origins of Luke's father - Annikin Starkiller, Anakin Skywalker, or Darth Vader?") is for the opposing side of the 'did Lucas know (when he wrote ANH)' argument to posit that the only evidence that counts are the screenplay drafts/scripts/treatments of the OT films, the linchpin being that the Father Vader twist is not mentioned in any of the scripts/drafts for ANH, with a special focus on the first draft script of ESB (by Leigh Brackett).

I think this line of reasoning is flawed for several reasons. First being that scripts consist of dialogue and scene description: they are not necessarily exhaustive representations of an author/filmmaker's intent - and as I will argue, that the drafts/scripts in question, whether by Lucas or by Brackett, are no exception to this.

I will bring up what I think I've seen missing from both sides of the argument, the whole 'volcano backstory' what became the Mustafar battle in the PT. That whole backstory element was not found in any script or treatment that's been publicly released. By this metric, the opposing side would have to conclude that it didn't exist as a notion back then, that Lucas only made it up later. But we have Lucas mentioning the idea in interviews around the time or a little after SW/ANH was released. Yet the public hasn't seen the written back-story notes of subplot, unless if one counts the 'interviews' Lucas gave to the licensing head(s) during the summer of 1977. Even when he got the chance (again) to put in on-screen - with ROTJ - he ended up cutting that element from the film (if it ever was filmed) or at the script-writing phase. I would argue that the 'volcano back-story' goes hand-in-hand with the Father Vader twist, and was only ever meant to work in that context, and that in a way it validates Lucas' claims that he's made about the Father Vader twist since 1983. I also happen to think it informs the reason why he has Obi-Wan claim that Luke's father was 'betrayed and murdered'.

 

The difference is that there's uncertainty regarding the father angle, unlike the volcano. He first talked about it publicly in 77, but then considered radiation burns/mutation as an alternative, which has been in the notes and alternate drafts. He never indicated that Vader had injuries until 77. The previous drafts had two different versions of Vader, and then the consistent idea that Vader and Kenobi fought before being separated for reasons. The injuries became the reason.

The father angle is built around the fact that there's nothing until the second draft of TESB, to say that it was true. Because until 1978, the two were separate people. The only clue was Lucas saying that we won't know who Vader is until the third film.

 

And the idea that Vader had a secret identity isn't the same thing as saying Vader was Luke's father. It could just as easily mean something like "he's Anakin's younger brother" or "he's Obi-Wan's son", or even "he's a clone of Anakin/Obi-Wan".

Arguably, the fact that Lucas apparently vetoed allowing JW Rinzler to put what he told Leigh Brackett about Luke's father in 1977 into the Making of ESB book is proof enough in itself that he didn't have Vader's identity locked down yet.

 

I haven't read the full scripts, just bits and pieces in the Annotated Scripts book and elsewhere, but what occurs to me is that Lucas wrote various stories and then switched things around, switched names and places and relationships.
Now my question would be : was there ever a relationship (in these drafts) where the father was evil or messed up physically ?

 

First, in these discussions, the scripts are not the only evidence, what Lucas said in private and in public is also brought up. And we have examples of Lucas talking of Vader and Luke's father as separate people.

The reason why scripts gets focused on is that we have a date and there is less room for "Is Lucas hiding the truth, is he misremembering" and so on.
The argument that Lucas thought of Vader being the father in say 1975 but he never wrote it down or told anyone. That can not be proven or disproven as we would need a time machine and the ability to read Lucas mind.
So in of itself, that is not very useful.
But what we can look at are the various scripts and drafts plus what Lucas said and get an idea what his thoughts were.

Scripts also contains characters, events, plot beats and the story being told.
So the argument that they do not tell us what the writer has in mind I do not agree with.

The second draft has Vader the Sith Lord and the father character as two separate people. Vader also dies at the end but the father does not. This is pretty clear evidence that Vader is NOT the father as the father is another person and Vader dies in the end. If Lucas had Vader as the father, why would he write the script in this way?
The first draft again has Vader and the father as separate characters.
The third draft has the father as dead but Vader is alive but Luke knew his father and knows when his father was killed and said father told Luke where Obi-Wan was. Does not work with Vader being the father.

The first draft of ESB has the ghost of Luke's father show up. That makes Vader being the father pretty much impossible unless he fathered Luke but is separate to Anakin Skywalker. But having the ghost of the father show up and then reveal that he was not actually the father would be cheap.
And the idea that Brackett came up with this on her own and Lucas never told her to stop is far fetched to say the least. As is Lucas having decided that Vader is the father but for some reason lying to his writer.

Who has denied that the volcano backstory existed when ANH came out?
Lucas talked about it in private and in public, that has never been denied as far as I know.
But the volcano backstory is a, not proof that Lucas had Vader as the father and b, in which drafts would that come up? The first draft has Vader as a human general, not a cyborg. The second draft has Vader as a Sith but he dies in the end. So why have that as backstory for a character that plays no further role?
The third draft had Luke's father being killed at the battle of Condawn, no mention that Vader fell into a volcano there and no mention that Obi-Wan came across Vader at some later point.
Also, how much a cyborg Vader was varied. In some drafts, Vader is able to drink and the helmet was in part a space suit as he had to through space to reach the rebel ship.

Lastly, from what I know of the volcano backstory, Vader murdered Luke's father and Obi-Wan became furious and came after Vader, looking to even the score and Vader fell down and was burned.
So here Vader is separate from the father character.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Just to save reading through pages and pages. The answer is no.

 

"The volcano story" was very simplified, it was Vader fought Obi-Wan, fell into a molten pit and was badly burned. That was then tweaked in TESB when we see the big scar across Vader's scalp but added no explanation. In ROTJ they added more scarring on Vader's face, again the only explanation in early drafts was OWK and Vader fought and Vader fell into a molten pit. GL is a master of adapting his own plot into something even better, though he's not consistent in his explanation, GL says he always had three figures in mind for the backstory, the murdered father, the evil apprentice and the teacher. He combined the murdered father and the evil apprentice, killed off the teacher and created a new teacher. I like to think he saw something when he was putting ANH together and it gave him insight into adapting TESB from his original plan, making Vader the father. Then again putting together TESB he saw something that inspired him to make Leia, Luke's sister.

But we also have our German friends screaming but Vader is similar to Vater, so was GL playing with us from the beginning.

 

Kane Starkiller was mostly cybernetic in the first draft of ANH. In this story, Vader was a human Imperial officer who was a bit player. Prince Valorum was the Jedi turned Sith who regrets his decision and switches sides because of Annikin Starkiller. A Sith Knight appears dressed similar to Vader, but is eliminated early on. These characters became amalgamated into the man we now know today.

In the second draft, the father is a three hundred year old Jedi, whose powers are diminished and Vader only appears in the beginning and dies at the end.

 

Also in the second draft, Darth Vader mentions at one point that his Sith overlord is "Prince Espaa Valorum". Lucas might have had the thought that this character would show up in sequels, and might eventually turn to the light side like his rough-draft namesake.

It also occurs to me that, since Luke has a very large family with a bunch of brothers in the second draft, Lucas might have entertained the idea of "Espaa Valorum" being secretly an older brother of Luke's who fell to the dark side. After all, Valorum's new forename "Espaa" derives from French espoir, "hope" - and one might suppose that, to paraphrase the Duke of Norfolk in Shakespeare's Henry VI, Part 3, "such hope have all the line of John of Gaunt Starkiller".

At any rate, even if the idea of a Sith Lord with a secret identity did originate with Espaa Valorum in the second draft as a plot thread intended for sequels, Valorum was still a separate character from Luke's father, who was alive and leading the Rebellion in that script.

From Lucas' words to Alan Dean Foster in 1975 about the third-draft script, it seems likely that this aspect of a Sith Lord with a secret identity was then grafted on to Darth Vader. But "having a secret identity" and "being Luke's father" are two separate things, and I'd wager they remained so until late 1977 at the earliest. Did Lucas tell Leigh Brackett that he was considering merging Vader and Annikin but hadn't decided fully yet? That would be interesting to know.