ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Yet they still made it a point to have Finn wield it not once but twice before she did. If it was simply about Rey they could have just as easily had the First Order take it to the ship for Kylo and then had Rey get it when she escaped. They could even still have Finn’s stand happen on Starkiller Base after that.

If that was the case neither Bo Katan nor Moff Gideon could wield it easily. They made it clear that it was heavy for Din because he didn't really want it. It had nothing to do with Jedi stuff.

 

That's debatable considering that up to that point he received the same brainwashing training as the rest of them yet was the only one to break free from it.

But it also doesn't present it as a certainty that it's not force-related. This was deliberately done so the audience could at the very least question it. Besides, the editor ,Maryann Brandon, points this specific moment out to let people know it was definitely discussed and was a possibility. So none of this is just the audience making stuff up or John Boyega lying about what was told to him.

I think that was more so to do with the fact that she's a prodigy and possibly related to a powerful force-user. I don't think it was there to suggest Finn wasn't force-sensitive.

 

No. The film purposely pointed to both Rey and Finn having the force. It purposely pointed to Finn being the one where the ‘force had awakened’. That’s the point. It was misdirection for misdirection’s sake, because the plot/story was so thin that fake mystery was all they had to fall back on, and it added no overall value other than to excite the lowest common denominator. It’s what happens when filmmakers/writers can’t develop drama organically. It’s like the use of a jump scare in horror. That Rey was a Palpatine just demonstrates that there was no purpose to Anakin’s/Luke’s sabre ‘calling’ to Rey. It wouldn’t.

Nobody but you and one other person thinks that. It’s why Boyega believes he was shafted by the films. It’s why most agree with him.

A lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi. After 9 ‘saga’ films you need this explained to you? Han Solo used a lightsaber in TESB, but it doesn’t change what the lightsaber is within story. It’s the weapon of a Jedi (or Sith) and is associated with force users. It’s why its use has meaning in TFA and why the association is used to suggest Finn will be a Jedi. Are you seriously trying to argue that Abrams didn’t want to suggest Finn had the force in TFA or TROS? Seriously?

 

Swear some people would argue black is white just for the sake of being contrary.

Boyega himself confirmed the signs were there with TFA, (that many of us had plainly noticed), but Rian then dialled it back in TLJ, before JJ added the force hint back in with TROS. Frankly what else is there to say on it?

Heres the link to one of the many interviews he's done:

John Boyega on 'The Last Jedi' Changing Finn's Force-Sensitive Trajectory; His Episode IX Meeting With Trevorrow, and More - Star Wars News Net

Heres the excerpt where he mentions it:

“It was a discussion from VII that was kind of bruit, because you didn’t know which way it was gonna go. And then VIII went in another direction, so I think that with VIII going in another direction, when you’re bringing someone for the third, they have to kind of like reshape what’s happened in VIII and still kind of make a narrative of it. J. J. really went… The Force Awakens, the movie that J.J. directed, he was kind of plotting a trajectory, but obviously with the different creatives, [when he came back for the third] he still wanted to force in there… And that’s when you get the moment between Finn and Jannah where Jannah asks him ‘How do you know?’ and he says ‘It’s a feeling’. He just had to get something in there that told you how why there was a Stormtrooper who held his own long enough against a Sith. Or a Sith wannabe, to a certain extent. So it was interesting when those talks were coming in the first stage. And I thought, you’re getting the lightsaber, you start swinging and defending… Last time I checked you can’t even just swing that a certain type of way. When Han was holding it briefly, what did he do? He held it to like get the locks off or something. Like, manual labour. You are using it to defend your friend, you must have something in you. But you know, who knows if maybe down the line they have a young actor or whatever and they have a chance to expand on Finn. Who knows if we get that, what is it about this dude that made him so special?”

 

JB is an unreliable witness to his own history. He's nothing more than an out of work actor, desperate for the spotlight, and money, who has serious sour grapes of his side-character in SW.

According to .... some on the internet.

 

While Finn breaking his conditioning is certainly remarkable, the film frames this as a moment of human empathy rather than Force ability. His reaction to witnessing violence seems more emotional than mystical, though I can see how this could be interpreted differently. The film emphasizes his moral choice rather than suggesting supernatural resistance.

That's an interesting point about the behind-the-scenes discussions. I agree there was likely some ambiguity intended. However, within the finished film itself, the Force moments are explicitly given to Rey while Finn's journey is presented differently. Production discussions are fascinating but sometimes reflect paths not ultimately taken in the final cut. I'm not suggesting anyone is making things up - just focusing on what the completed film shows us.

You make a good point - Rey's exceptional skill doesn't necessarily rule out Finn having some connection to the Force. The film does focus on establishing Rey's unique abilities, but you're right that this doesn't automatically exclude Finn from having potential that could have been developed in later films. The contrast between them could simply be showing different levels rather than presence vs. absence.

 

But that is very anticlimactic. Everything is structurely done to create the most exciting direction. Rey getting it removes the moment she takes it in the climax. Even that is meant to be a surprise because the audience ain't expecting it to be her that takes it as to us she refuses it and is reluctant to take it.

As Jaimestarr mentions

Which is true. You can call it a force awakening. But its really suggested as being such. Which again goes back to subtle. If you want subtle, be prepared that no one will even notice because you don't actually reference it or acknowledge it.

Rey on the other hand, was given all that importance.

Looking at the film itself. Its like 5% there if im being kind. Compared to Reys 85%. So without more evidence to know what JJ was getting at. Which i don't believe we have anything from him talking about that plan. im guessing maybe not.

 

Unbelievable.

 

Why is JJ trustworthy on this subject and not JB to you?
Why is JJ's evidence or quote more substantial to you than JB's evidence and quotes on the matter?
What is it about JB that you find unreliable on this matter?

We've given you plenty of in movie evidence for this set up. It's far more than 5%, but even that is more than nothing, which you have insisted previously.

It seems strange that - as a supposed fan of these movies - you've gone to such great lengths to invalidate the words of one of its actors and what the supposed story line he says was being set up in the film, and in future films, and instead cling to your notion that its all lies or made up sour grapes. I wonder why you're so against this idea to the point where your argument boils down to JB is a liar and only JJ can be trusted on this matter

 

Because if JJ told him that, he must have had more details on how this was meant to come to be.

But at the same time, im not saying Boyega is a liar either. i can definitely tell he really wanted Finn to be a Jedi and wanted in on that Jedi action. But i'm more saying that TFA doesn't put that concept in the best position going forward and so the bigger question is, based on what JJ made... what did JJ really believe was going to happen? This idea that JJ had this plan... Then why did he make TFA with so little effort to solidify that? Why was everything in a position that distanced Finn from being on the same level as Rey?

JJ is the person who would be able to explain what he wanted to do with Finn.

Most of that evidence is speculative based on trope and the meaning of certain scenes, just without any pay off to solidify it as being the actual meaning.

Well you, yourself spend most of the time explaining how everything in the ST is pointless and nothing is explained, but you are more than open to the nuggets, that no matter how small they are, are infact good enough to validate Finn as a Jedi. I do find that weird personally.

I can be a fan, but i can also be someone who wants evidence to validate something. If there are aspects to back something up, i can speculate based on that evidence. If something is very clear and obviously, then thats just confirmation. I'm not questioning whether Rey is force sensitive because TFA makes it very clear and obviously. While i can also say TROS gives evidence that Finn is force sensitive, because it shows us he is. And makes sure that message is very clear also. Even if it was right at the end of TROS as they wanted to keep that mystery of what he wanted to tell Rey. But that still is evidence. TFA alone does not do this in the film itself, its all speculative.

And the moment the evidence is that he is using a saber... Thats unbelievable. Anyone can hold a saber and swing it around. You need more than that. you need more than the concept of trope to validate this was ever a thing.

 

Same.

@DarkGingerJedi Ultimately, all of this back and forth comes down to one thing: What exactly are you looking for here? What are you trying to tell me (someone who loves the ST) that we don't see/get?

I'm not trying to convince you that you should like the ST. I know you don't like these movies. I'm simply pushing back on claims about what's actually on screen, while fully acknowledging we all have our own interpretations and reactions.

I don't have a burden of proof to enjoy these films - I just do. And you don't need to prove why you dislike them either. But when specific claims are made about what is or isn't in the movie, that's different.

I am trying to honor your POV, but I don't get what's going on with this one about Finn (or splitting hairs about how reconciled Han and Leia are/were in TFA). There's not much in TFA to suggest that Finn is Force sensitive at all...not in any traditional SW sense that is. Even Leia (who was retconned as Luke's sister) had a moment in ESB where (gasp!) we the audience were shown that she indeed was Force sensitive and could know Luke was in trouble. Do you really feel like there is an equivalent to this in TFA? I don't see it. Picking up a lightsaber ain't enough as it's been done many times by non-Force users.

I am not trying to be obstinate. I'm genuinely trying to understand what you're hoping to accomplish with this one.

 

Out of curiosity, is there the same anger about how Oscar Isaac was treated? His character was completely fumbled and screwed up as well. IMO neither Finn nor Poe were very good characters, and I don’t really understand why either of them were owed better stories in the 8 and 9. Neither character was very good in TFA, IMO, so why did they deserve larger roles or better roles later on? Jae Jar was supposed to have a bigger role but it didn’t work out. Boyega got cast in the part of a lifetime, and I don’t think the character really worked all that well. Wa sit the writing, the directing the acting or something else? Who knows. But that’s how it goes. The filmmakers don’t owe him three great movie roles, they owed the fans the best story the. Old tell. Finn becoming a Jedi would’ve works for me, but it’s so low on the list of things they blew about the ST.

 

Jar Jar interested me more than Finn or Poe.

 

It’s not fair to compare anyone to Jar Jar

 

Id say Oscar Isaac is probably happy with his role.

 

Well if it’s not about how Disney treated Boyega, but instead it’s about anger at the people who are giving Boyega a hard time, then that makes a lot more sense. But if the premise is that Boyega was wronged by Disney, literally everyone was wronged by Disney. The only people not wronged by Disney were maybe Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher. They wronged George Lucas. They wronged Mark Hamill, They wronged OT fans. They wronged PT fans. To act like he was a specific target is IMO not honest.

 

Bravo. It’s a step forward that you concede the point.

Rey *is* the main character… Abrams and Kasdan know she’s the main character… so of course she’s supposed to have ‘importance’, but that isn’t really the point. It’s that the film purposely sets out to pretend Finn has more significance than he has in order they can switch it up in the final reel. It’s done so Rey can be ‘revealed’ by ridiculously force pulling a lightsaber. However it’s Finn who is ‘awoken’ from his state of slumber as a First Order soldier… it’s Finn who first acts on his conscience… he defects… he rescues Poe… he meets Rey… his is *given* a lightsaber… he fights with a lightsaber… he is the character with a lightsaber in the marketing.

Ultimately Abrams leaves Finn exactly where he wants him to be at the end of TFA… not victorious, elated or in a higher state of consciousness… but instead comatose and absolutely tertiary to both Rey and Kylo. But that he, as a character, is purposely and cynically used as a stepping stone for Rey and Kylo, is the issue.

Firstly, that’s why it’s a bait and switch... because Finn ultimately doesn’t end up the Jedi of the film. Secondly, Abrams confirmed Finn was force sensitive in TROS… and he clearly felt obliged to reference the plot point following his first film. And of course it is *explicit* in the novelisation that Finn has the force. Join the dots.

 

Didn't Isaac also complain about his role sometime back? He doesn't seem happy, probably just indifferent

 

Yeah he did. Rey, Finn and Poe are not the greatest additions to SW, so I suspect the actors feel somewhat shortchanged (specifically Boyega and Isaac).

 

Mistakes are made. i meant its NOT really suggested as being such.

No that is really is not the case at all. there is no attempt to trick the audience in the film itself that Finn might be the force sensitive one.

By the time Finn gets the saber, we have already been told Rey is the force sensitive one that the saber is calling too. By the time Finn gets it, we know who is going to end up with it. There is no bait and switch. We don't think oh the saber called to Rey but Finn has it now... that clearly means Finn might be the force sensitive one.

Rey just had a scene where she had a force vision and the Maz told her to take the saber, confirming her importance! And then Rey said no and ran away. So Maz said hey Finn take this and find your friend. Then he turned the saber on to defend himself... Thats bait and switch? for who? a person with a low attention span?

What?

Thats TROS. Thats not TFA. Changes can be made between movies. Changes are often made between movies. The whole point of this debate is whether TFA made it clear he was force sensitive. So clear infact that it was ignored. Even though it was so clear and fully ready to jump into Jedi Finn.

 

There's not a chance in hell that JJ just randomly decided to make Finn a Jedi, but then also didn't quite go through with it, in TROS. Nothing about that movie was creative.

It's clear that's an idea from TFA that didn't get developed in TLJ, and JJ was left with 'what now?" with that plot thread.

 

Well not really. Making Finn a jedi also isn't incredibly creative. It feels more like a break glass incase of emergency when it comes to giving characters importance. Because its easy. To be creative involves creating a character from something very unique while also being cool. When he is just the 2nd jedi. Its not very creative.

Does that mean it wasn't his plan in TFA? He didn't solidify anything in that movie. He knew he was moving on after that movie. There are plenty of ways he could have made it far less subtle. Had Finn of been like Sabine in Ahsoka and kept trying to reach for someone far away but couldn't get it. And you are just waiting to see if it pulled towards him... then you could say JJ was trying to tease it and the films just didn't get back to that aspect. but in what we got... there is nothing like that there. He holds a saber and defends himself... Ok. This is not Thors hammer. He was awakened by the force... In the film itself it could also be framed as human empathy to the events he just witnessed very easily.

You say JJ isn't very creative. So why would you assume he is very subtle?

 

This sure is an interesting standard given who else in this trilogy this reminds me of.