Greetings all! This month we will be discussing The Last Command by Timothy Zahn! Here's a link to the TF.n Staff Reviews. As always, discussion points to start us off: - This is it, the big finale, where all the storylines payoff. One of the things the Thrawn Trilogy did that a lot of the EU didn't stick to so closely was the incorporation of the smuggling elements and here we see that culminate in the creation of the Smuggler's Alliance. Any thoughts on this part of the novel? Did the existence of the Smuggler's Alliance pay off in the long run? Was it underused? - There's also a big focus on the military campaign and Thrawn's tactical skill. We've discussed this before, but I feel it's worth revisiting; do the things he does live up to his reputation? Is his death fitting? What impression does he leave on the EU? - Then, of course, the Jedi Showdown between Luke, C'Baoth, Luuke and Mara. It's an interesting fusion of the mystical and science fictional and hinges on Mara's past as the Emperor's hand. Is it an emotionally satisfying battle? Does Mara killing Luuke work or does it feel like a cop out? - Finally, as a general retrospective on the series, how do you think the trilogy hangs together? Has it aged well? It rejuvenated the EU novel scene, what obvious influences do you think it has had on later work, and what elements do you think Zahn used that didn't stay as standard? Thanks guys. As I mentioned earlier this year, I will be standing down as the host of the 181st Imperial Discussion Group at the end of the year, which makes this my last discussion thread. I want to thank you all for the time and effort you've put in over the years and the great discussions we've had. I've read some books I never got around to and more in a new light. I've had a great time with this during my tenure as host, and apologise that I have been more absent over the last few months and that I'm not in a place where I have the time to continue with this. I'm not around the forum as much as I'd like, but I do still lurk and hope to be in a position to be around more regularly in the future. Once again, you've all been marvelous, and, as always, take it away!
Thanks for hosting the discussion group for all this time, good luck with your future Beccatoria! Ah, The Last Command is probably one of the best Star Wars books ever, capping off one of the best trilogies ever. I think the trilogy has held up very well over the decades, with HttE literal 20th anniversary having just come and gone. Of course, that's partially because the trilogy is a good follow-up to the movies, so as long as the OT holds up, the Thrawn trilogy does as well. You've got Luke as the only Jedi in the series (Mara isn't fully trained and C'baoth is just a full-on crazy Dark Jedi by now, not a Sith unless they throw in Palpatine giving the clone C'baoth some Sith training, a distinction that is sometimes lost in more recent books), Han as smart as ever and Leia handling quite a few political things. The Thrawn trilogy is also notable for how much it added to the EU- not just because it was the first "modern" big novel, but because of how much from it has endured over the years. Mara Jade, Pellaeon, Bel Iblis, Talon Karrde, and until recently several of those characters were still appearing in new novels. Its also a nice variety of characters, Force-sensitive, Imperial, fringe, military, etc. One of my favorite parts of the novel and trilogy is that C'baoth said he foresaw Mara kneeling before him... and as it turns out, he was right, since that's how she kills him, dropping onto her knees. Its nice to see a so-called prophecy turn out so badly for him. And as Mara herself retorted, Palpatine was supposed to be great at visions, yet he still died at Endor, as the future is always in motion. It does seem kind of easy for Mara to get that last command out of her head by killing a clone Luuke, but its also interesting how finding out that Luke is Vader's son changes her whole perspective. Finding out Palpatine wants revenge on Vader by killing Vader's son rather than simply avenging his death (and as it turns out Luke didn't actually kill Palpatine, and she can already tell Luke wouldn't lie about most things). Its kind of funny that after that she's even more reluctant to carry out that command, where five years ago Palpatine sent her out on a mission to kill Luke Skywalker, and she didn't question him at all. Mara finishes her development here as she basically buries her past. While she is officially still planning to kill Luke Skywalker eventually, she's also very honorable as when she hears someone managed to find her comatose body in all that debris, she knows that only Skywalker could've done that, which means she owes him again. Well, they've saved each other's lives often but still. But as Leia said, announcing your plan to kill Luke to his sister isn't really a smart thing to do. And while Mara was locked up, glad that neither Luke nor Leia lost trust in her. Partially its thanks to the Force, as Leia did have brief telepathic contact with her and Luke is that nice. And Mara does tell them about the Emperor's secret storehouse, which is a big betrayal of his trust, but she knows what's at stake. C'baoth was just full-on crazy-powerful by now. Even Thrawn was... well, not nervous but wary of using C'baoth anymore, as before he had been able to placate or distract C'baoth but now C'baoth was getting out of control, especially after displays like taking command of the entire Chimaera's crew. Heck, after that Pellaeon probably should've walked around with a yslamiri strapped to his back, but then that would ruin morale too. And even through all that insanity, C'baoth still ended up where he wanted, waiting for Luke and Mara and experimenting with minds. Even now, after years of other Dark Jedi and Sith, C'baoth carving out someone's mind like that sounds creepy. Its kind of funny how Talon sorta ends up following Han's route. He denies it the whole time, but he has essentially thrown his lot in with the New Republic and then he tries to get the rest of the smugglers in on it. And he succeeds partially thanks to Ferrier. The Smuggler's Alliance hasn't really done much since, unf
The formation of the Smuggler?s Alliance started off as a necessity in order to survive any reprisals from Thrawn. But once the clone factor, and how rapidly Thrawn seemed to be creating them, became a factor, they realized that they needed to do more. I recall in Heir to the Empire that Karrde believed that the NR would win in the long run. However, in order to reach the long run, he needed to survive the here-and-now and the immediate future, and in both cases, Thrawn was the victor. Karrde realized that if the NR fell, Thrawn would be after them next, so they did what they did in order to survive. As for the contributions the Smuggler?s Alliance made to the NR in the long run, I agree that it was underused. After this trilogy, we didn?t really hear anything more about them until the Hand of Thrawn, when Karrde changed it into an intelligence gathering and exchange organization between the NR and the Empire. He does live up to his reputation of being a genius. At least, on the battlefield for the most part. Off the battlefield, the cloak-and-dagger routines, like incriminating Mara, he succeeded for the most part. He made two critical mistakes. First, he never considered the possibility that the Noghri would learn of Leia?s relationship with Darth Vader. Second, he underestimated the Noghri?s sense of honor. There?s one thing about Thrawn that I don?t understand, and it stems from recent novels. In Outbound Flight, we were given the impression that Thrawn and the Chiss didn?t view slavery in a favorable light. In Survivor?s Quest, Choices of One, and Crisis of Faith, Thrawn and the troops under his command were willing to work with non-humans to the point that they were part of the stormtrooper regiments. Races that were proven to be aggressive, like the Vagaari and Nuso Esva?s race, were kept on a tight leash and/or under a tight watch, but they weren?t enslaved. Yet the Noghri were like indentured servants to Thrawn. There?s just something wrong with that. Or maybe it?s just my perspective. I agree that the showdown was an interesting fusion of mystical and science fiction ? a merger we started to see back in Heir to the Empire. A clone of a Jedi Master becoming mad, though considering how the original turned to the dark side, one could say the apple didn?t fall very far from the tree in this case. We then have the battle with the clones in Dark Force Rising, and we had Luke sensing a ?buzzing? in the background of the Force. Then we have Leia coming up with a theory as to how Thrawn was able to mass produce the clones at a rapid pace, and in the process explain the existence of the ?buzzing?. I know that there are some who believe that this explanation doesn?t really fit for them, but considering how Luke felt after his clone was killed ? I see that as confirming proof. Mara killing Luuke seems a little like a cop out, now that I think about it, but I also think it might have been the final nail in the coffin of Mara?s past. I?ll get to the first nail in
Dident the Smuggler Alliance also show up in the Jedi Academy series when they tried to take over Kessel after the local crime lords fleet was beaten by Daala?
Becca's last command... To be honest, I haven't even finished the book yet, I'm really fighting with this one, and I can't even explain why. One thing that I want to throw in the pot before I return for the full discussion is how Thrawn has moved from killing people for the mistakes of their subordinates to handing out cookies to everyone. For me, there's two reasons why this makes sense and one why it would have made sense the other way round. I'll start with that one: Thrawn has more ressources right now, so it would make sense for him to throw them away more easily. His strategies also pay off, so he could specifically throw away ressources that he doesn't need anymore. Obviously, the books go for another route, so one might argue that we only see him keep key personnel that he can't easily replace with clones or new recruits. So what's the reason for his actions (except for the OOU probability of Zahn falling in with the "Thrawn is totally awesome" crowd he got to know since writing the first novel, therefore giving more reasons for people to like Thrawn)? Maybe Thrawn got bitter and cynical when things weren't looking so great, and he's relaxing now that victory is in sight? Not letting his frustration out on his subordinates anymore, just like Vader had a much higher rate of friendly killings when frustrated by not having captured his son yet but didn't even bother to kill the Death Star general when in his comfort zone? And another thing - I find it truly strange to come back from the entire Clone Wars material to this more "faceless" approach of cloning, where the clones do not really act in the book but rather serve as silent, threatening wallpaper.
One minor thing that bugs me about this novel is how the final confrontation with C'baoth is played out very similarly to the Luke/Vader/Palpatine confrontation in ROTJ. C'baoth is sitting in his chair, directing the fight between Luke and Luuke. In one part in particular, Luke flips onto a catwalk, then the clone cuts it down and dumps Luke back onto the floor.
That's where the aforementioned Thrawn revisionism sets in. If the Chiss society is at odds with Thrawn's principles, that's fine, because this might be a reason why he's the only one of his kind in the Empire - an exile. But Thrawn really changing so fundamentally from the art-loving oppressor to a really not so bad guy who just wants to see the trains on time, that's strange. Not withstanding the fact that all we see Thrawn manage is his military. I think most of the "small band of survivors with military protection" stories popular culture produced over the last years had something like this - military people who are living the "band of brothers" ideal but neglect the civilians because they are just slowing them down in their fight. Even if we see Thrawn be the very best military commander one could imagine, this still didn't need to have anything to do with his skills when leading the galaxy or dealing with a planetary population. He doesn't need to be good at everything. And he isn't. He's really treating the Noghri and their culture like dirt. This actually makes me wonder if Thrawn should really be seen as an "art lover" in the classic sense when he might just see it as another kind of ressource. If I'm not mistaken, we never see him keep art for art's sake; he's only ever putting stuff on display when he's about to shoot someone (except for the "failure reminder", and that's obviously some reason very different from aesthetics). This would really work well with his malevolent disregard of Noghri culture. OK, the dying words imply that he's really into art, but other than that... There's even more parallels to ROTJ. There's the potentially back-breaking space battle that ends in Pellaeon leading a retreat after the big bad leader dies, and more importantly, there's an obvious play on the Ewok concept. Which gets divided into a "more realistic" duality of short-bodied killer commando helpers and somewhat aggressive, but ultimately not decisive natives. I'm not really sure how I feel about this. Seeing how Zahn didn't exactly emulate the first two movies with his first two books, it's a bit strange.
The fight between Luke, Mara, C'Baoth and Luuke remains one of my favorites in SW. To be honest, the only detractor is Zahn's insistence that clones must have two "U"s in their name... Joruus isn't so bad, but Luuke? Come on. Anyway, I get the feeling that Zahn got the impression from Yoda that Jedi Masters don't use lightsaber; it makes sense to me that C'Baoth would consider himself above using a lightsaber. It makes for a very interesting fight, C'Baoth using only the Force. Some complain that the clone fight was unnecessary, but I would argue that it is essential to the story, keeping in mind what comes next: Dark Empire. The fact that Luke is fighting something identical to him, something so twisted and evil, really gets to him, and helps steer him to where he is in DE. It really is just a "big" fight; everyone is there, from Luke to Han to Leia to Talon Karrde. It pretty much takes the combined efforts of all of them to bring C'Baoth down. I wonder if Leia was using a somewhat scaled down form of Battle Meditation to help Mara?
Not only Yoda, but also Palpatine didn't use/carry a lightsaber back in those days. So, turning C'Baoth into a lightsaber duelist would have worked, but wouldn't have been the default choice, especially since C'Baoth is Palpatine and Yoda at the same time, and nothing but the beard suggests that he's some kind of Obi-Wan. Back then, lightsaber duels were a climatic event, not just an "everyone does it all the time" kind of thing. You also had two potential duelists at hand, therefore cutting Zahn free from utilizing C'Baoth in that role: You could have turned Mara for a duel, or you could somehow have created a Luke/Leia duel. Zahn invented a third option in the evil clone, and let's not forget that you don't invent something like that just because you need to fill the last twenty pages of your contract (well, at least it didn't work that way back then). Zahn deliberately created a story that involved cloning, he wasn't forced to do that. His original outline had a force-mad Obi-Wan for crying out loud, so it's evident that Zahn plotted this thing - complete with the idea where the DNA was taken from - well in advance as the climax of the trilogy. I'd even say the idea came before he invented Mara's bad dreams which could be solved through the clone's existence. But speaking of reasons for the existence of Luke's clone in this novel... Didn't we all read this when we were about twelve? Don't we remember how creepy and cool that scene was (the word "awesome" wasn't in wide use back then because the internet hadn't been unleashed back then)? For him, calling that guy Luuke was just a way of showing that he was a clone, and that it did. Cheesy? Of course. But SW is cheesy. As much as Zahn disses the Ewoks by outfitting Han with the Noghri, he's firmly entrenched in this slightly stupid fairy tale that we all love so much. Did anyone listen to the cantina-tracks from the TOR game that have been released over the last few days? Weird crazy synth-based fun music. SW isn't meant to be high culture, it's an extrapolation of everything that touches our soul (the myth) and everything that touches out heart (the cheesy stuff).
Hey everyone, Sorry that I've been absent from the discussions on Zahn's nameless trilogy so far. I was on a long vacation and have only recently returned home. I wanted to share some important, if short, thoughts specifically on The Last Command before the window was closed, though. The Last Command is the best third act that's ever come out of an EU trilogy. If its quality could be pinned on one single aspect, it would be that it works as a standalone novel. Yes, it capped off all of the storylines that had been developing over the last two books, but it also had some plots that were all its own. So many other third acts that we've seen in the EU have focused exclusively on, even resigned themselves to, concluding what's come before. They've forgotten that every single novel should be able to stand on its own. Champions of the Force killed off Exar Kun in the first act and then dithered around aimlessly for 200 pages with Tol Sivron as the horrendously unbelievable trilogy's-end-antagonist. Force Heretic Reunion featured Luke and co. sitting around on Zonama Sekot for 400 pages doing absolutely nothing. For whatever reason, the authors felt like it was too late in the game to introduce something new. They thought that they could do nothing more than tie off loose ends. And in both cases, the entire trilogy suffered. The Last Command is the antithesis of those snooze fests. It roundhouse kicks you with Thrawn's new cloaking device in the first chapter. It boosts his military ranks with a clone army. It has him attack Coruscant twice in the first 200 pages. Twice! It gives Thrawn the upper hand right up until his death. The Last Command isn't just a damn good trilogy-finisher, it's a damn good book. Instead of just being an ending, it has its own beginning and middle, as well. Is a Luke clone a lame idea? Absolutely not. 1993 was literally the only time in the history of the EU that that idea could have been pulled off. Zahn would have been remiss not to do it. Happy New Year!
Halfway through a re-read of the Thrawn books (thanks, Choices of One and HttE25!), but I wanted to jump in here at the end. Thrawn: While I don't like this revisionist "he had the Galaxy's best interest at heart stuff" we've been getting since the Hand of Thrawn books, I do wonder if he can be held up as an example of power corrupting. Regardless of his motives, he is distinctly not a good guy in this series. In Choices of One, he fights a villain who was castigated for enslaving whole races and kidnapping children. Of course, we see Thrawn do (or attempt to do) both during this series. As such, there is some real, meaningful justice to how he died. Perhaps this was the artistic touch he saw in his last moments? Luuke: If this book was written today, I really wonder if this would've been a clone of Anakin. I guess later EU adds some sense to the Emperor keeping Luke's hand - his master had a pronounced interest in midicholrian manipulation, and could actually be Anakin's "dad," so looking at the midis of the son of a man "born of pure Force" would appeal to him. Luke's fighting style: "Fight Saber" and other works have established Luke as a practitioner of Form V lightsaber combat - an aggressive, high impact style. It was used by both Anakin and Vader, and Luke in RotJ. However, his personality in these books is passive, almost to the extreme. As such, I've come to picture post-Mindor Luke using something more akin to Obi-Wan's more defensive Form III. The sequence of Luke luring Luuke towards the monitors, and then letting the clone blow up his own face, is a particularly Kenobian touch. MAN, I wish Matthew Stover would write an Obi-Wan book. Leia and Mara: It may be a side-effect of hanging out on these boards, but Mara's role in the final confrontation has become a pet peeve of mine. Her killing the clone was great - it resolved the YOU WILL KILL LUKE SKYWALKER arc in a way I don't think many people saw coming. However, I think Leia should have been the one to finish off C'baoth. Leia's growing Jedi skills were a recurring theme in this series, and having her take down an insane Force-user early one would have established some significant Jedi street cred that would have made that side of her character harder to ignore for later authors (which they mostly did). More importantly, C'baoth was the major existential threat to Leia and the twins across the whole series. Her defeating C'baoth would have allowed Leia to stare a threat to her family in the face, and then stab it with a lightsaber.
Seriously? Didn't Zahn already do that to Palpatine? At which point the whole Bilbringi battle, built up to be this big deal throughout the book, suddenly gets swept under the rug with a lame and unconvincing "smuggler breakout" plot point which we don't even see, as if Zahn got the book to the 400-page mark and then just simply walked away.
I liked that. It's an ending that the reader doesn't expect, and it catches them as unaware as it did Thrawn. Something like Wedge heroically destroying the Chimaera after a fifty-page space battle would have been a little cheesy and wouldn't have fit with the themes of the trilogy as well as the betrayal by Rukh did. Thrawn's own arrogance led him to be stabbed in the back. Good stuff.
Rukh was fine, and also an appropriate culmination of the trilogy's Noghri plot. I'm talking about the big space battle we were led to expect that didn't happen. The way that plot point ended up being "resolved" was pathetic.
There's an interesting point, actually - are there are literary techniques of resolving a story than "we show it"? In that regard, can a novel focus on stuff other than the more visual aspects like space battles (which, of course, you can write - but it's more of a visual element)? It's a bit like ROTJ not showing the rebels mop up the Empire completely, which, funnily enough, only gets detailled in the beginning of TTT. You just have to complete the main targets - kill villain, deal one important blow - and the audience will accept the outcome. In that regard, it also shows how Thrawn is the center of everything; once he's out of the equation, the battle isn't of interest anymore. The story itself isn't of interest anymore, as you only get a small epilogue after he left the stage. Thrawn revisionism: Yeah, I was surprised to see that it actually works that way; having Thrawn being corrupted suring the fight for his ideals. Only problem is that the way the story was presented, there was too much retcon and too less hinting at continuity in his fall. If someone in HOT had mentioned how Thrawn started off as a generally good guy but became too extreme, that would have worked; having him be this great guy that everyone would die for in and out of universe just doesn't fit with his personality in the original books. Standalone vs. last act: Yeah, that's right; I believe they actually worked harder to find a good plot for every part of the trilogy (=every single book) back then, as opposed to the infamous 9-book-series just filling the voids between pivotal scenes. Still, I think it's interesting that you don't really get episodes that are as standalone as the original movies. Mostly, "trilogy" just meant "we do three books because everyone knows that SW means trilogy" anyway, before they even dropped that pretense and just did single books.
