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181st Imperial Discussion Group: X-Wing: The Krytos Trap!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by beccatoria, Jan 1, 2010.

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  1. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Hello all, and happy new year! :D

    This month we are discussing X-Wing: The Krytos Trap by Michael A Stackpole.

    First off, here are the TF.n Staff Reviews.

    So, massive action-packed novel here! I'll start off, as usual, with a few discussion points and join in as we go:

    - First off, we have the Tycho and Rogue Squadron storyline with Corran presumed dead and Tycho on trial for his murder. We're quite distant from Tycho here, focusing more on Wedge as the leader of the Squadron and, perhaps oddly, Nawara Ven, who we hadn't spent a great deal of time with before, but we get more in his rather surreal fighter pilot backstory as a lawyer. What did you think of this? Did you buy the political motivations behind Tycho's trial? Did you feel a real sense of possibility that he was a spy as Corran suspected?

    - Which moves us on to Corran's storyline imprisoned in Lusankya and his subsequent escape and the starts of his Jedi storyline. (Aside: dude, those poor sliced-up museum guards! They were just guarding! Ahem.) We finally find out about Corran's Jedi abilities and family history as well as getting some more obvious moments of his abilities. What did you make of this storyline? The way Corran escaped the upside-down compound, his working through his hatred of Tycho, and his ultimate decision not to take Luke up on his offer?

    - With regards to the villains, we get some interesting developments. Loor defects having...grown a spine and failed to effectively used it in turn before finally getting gunned down accidentally. I'll be honest, I really wasn't expecting him to go out that way, or see him go out before the final novel. Did you think that was an interesting turn of events or were you sad to see the rivalry between Loor and Horn fail to reach a crisis point? And what of Vorru? I'm still a little confused about how his math of "I owe the Republic, so perhaps the Republic should put me in a position of power and control over extraordinarily vital supplies," works, to be honest with you, but how did you enjoy his role within the novel?

    - Finally, the finale. In some ways the rise of the Lusankya, the reveal of the spy, the death of Loor, the epic destruction of whole mega city blocks and skyhooks, the courtroom showdown, felt more epic than the taking of Coruscant itself. Indeed, it felt like a finale to the series rather than the novel with so many loose ends tied up. But of course, the Lusankya is free and we get the scene at the end where everyone quits. What are your thoughts on this? An exciting change of pace, callback to the Rebellion and shift of setting? Or a more disappointing turn as the series backs away from the nation-building of the republic and the role of the Squadron within that?

    Aaaaand, take it away!

    In February we will be discussing The Bacta War by Michael Stackpole..
     
  2. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    Hey, becca. Sorry I haven't been on the discussion groups in the past two months. Been worknig to get MCAS certification in Microsoft Office. Got certified in Word, PowerPoint, and Excel before Christmas. I'll be getting to Rogue Squadron soon and make my way to Krytos Trap. But I thought I should mention that I made a fanfic based on certain events in Krytos Trap and Bacta War. It's a "lost" or "hidden" chapter of sorts for Krytos Trap, just as The Apprentice was a "lost" or "hidden" chapter for Dark Journey. The fic is called Liberty and Custody, and even though it's a locked topic, you and the others can read it if you want. Be getting back to you with my thoughts soon.
     
  3. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    This was the best X-wing book yet.

    I know it?s odd to propose this, seeing as how it?s Stackpole?s eighteenth published novel, but his prose has been improving by leaps and bounds as the series has progressed. Unlike in Rogue Squadron, the use of italicized introspection is used sparingly, and feels so natural that you don?t even notice it. The characters are still a little too self-aware, making single-paragraph statements after sudden realizations on how to improve their life, but in all, the prose just flowed a lot more naturally than in the previous two books.

    It was also the first of the three books where Wedge felt like the main character. After Corran?s spotlight-hogging in the first two books, he was actually used very sparingly this time around, and his adventures were great interludes from the main storyline. The first two times we saw him were reminiscent of Winston?s breaking in the final act of Nineteen-Eighty Four, and, largely due to the association I found there, had me rooting for him and feeling for him as Isard slowly tried to break him. When he started to plan and execute his escape, I actually found myself looking forward to the next chapter from his POV, which is something that decidedly did not happen in books one and two.

    There was a really excellent variation in the POV?s and subplots that we got. This was an even better ensemble piece than Wedge?s Gamble. Nawara Ven was awesome throughout, and not just in the courtroom scenes, as we actually got to see a space battle from his POV. Hello! The dichotomy between that chapter and the space battle scenes from Wedge?s POV effectively conveyed the difference in skills and confidence that the two characters have in an X-wing cockpit, as well. The scenes from Gavin?s POV did seem kinda pointlessly thrown in, though --- sure, the Asyr-Borsk subplot was important, but the whole Bothan dinner party and Gavin being challenged by the Kre?fey seemed unconnected and forced.

    I really, really did love the myriad subplots though. Characters like Iella really, really shone. She was her own character in this book, and not just ?Wedge?s love interest?. The interplay between Vorru and Loor was very entertaining, and had me actually getting mad at Vorru and rooting for Loor. What?! For the first 330 pages, Stackpole was doing a fantastic job of balancing the various subplots (save for the random Gavin scenes (don?t get me wrong, I love the guy, but scenes gotta serve a purpose, ya know?)), but in the end, they just... didn?t all come together. The climax happened, Corran came back, and then in the last couple of chapters, Stackpole gave us an overload of telling rather than showing. Mon Mothma was like, ?Hey galaxy --- Mirax survived, Qlaern was able to synthesize a cure for Krytos, we discovered that the virus was kinda doomed to fail from the beginning, Isard just took over Thyferra...? and I was just kind of like ?What the ... ?? After being so fascinated by the interweaving subplots that dovetailed with each other beautifully and kept me on the edge of my seat throughout, I was very jarred by the fact that so many of them were tied up off-page.

    There were a lot of twists that I certainly didn?t expect. Seeing Derricote in Lusankya was a shock, and a testament to the ruthlessness of Isard. I didn?t see Loor?s defection coming, let alone his death. And Diric --- I spent the entire book thinking that he would uncover the key to Tycho?s innocence. But then when he did what he did, I was like ?Nooooo!? After digging him for the entire book, and not being able to figure out why Iella would eventually leave someone so awesome, that was a heartbreaking twist.

    Tycho had an understated performance that nonetheless shone in this book. He spent the whole book basically being like, ?Yeah, I?m innocent, and I?m playing it cool. Don?t worry, Nawara, I know you got my back.? Under so much pressure, he constantly kept his cool, and I was like, ?Dude. You are awesome.? I was kind of pissed at Airen Cracken for what he did,
     
  4. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    One quick thing I'm gonna touch on.

    Kirtan Loor proved himself almost as imcompetent as Daala in his first appearance. he had the opportunity to pretty much wipe out the NR leaders. Those bombs there... boom. Mon Mothma, all of Rogue Squadron, others all dead.

    And he waited until after the stands were nearly empty.

    Grade-A moron.
     
  5. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Jeff and I seem to be having very similar reactions to these novels. I certainly agree that this is the best so far - I enjoyed the variations in POV and storyline. I guess I can see Jeff's point about the Gavin storyline being kind of disconnected but it didn't bother me because the book surprised me by engaging me far more than the previous novels. Not that I didn't enjoy those, I did, just...they weren't page-turners the way this one was.

    I particularly agree about the things I didn't see coming - Derricote in Lusankya, Loor's defection and death, Diric's heartbreaking ending. I knew something tragic had happened to Iella's husband through like, Star Wars Fan Osmosis or something, so I was shocked to even SEE him as I thought he'd already died tragically, and then, like Jeff, I spent the whole book wondering what was going to happen.

    I also really enjoyed Corran's storyline and the way Lusankya was on Coruscant the whole time - it would have been easy for that to seem a smug or implausible twist but it was well-done, I think.

    I do see Jeff's point about the ending being a bit pat. I would be a little more generous though. I think that there were some problems after the climax of the novel when Mon Mothma really does just show up and say, "OH ALSO, a, b, c and d happened. YAY, have a medal!" But I think the climax itself is really well-handled, and I think I really preferred it to the taking of Coruscant in the last novel. I felt like a lot of storylines converged and a lot of things were happening at once. Good stuff.

    Though I also agree that Airen Cracken really seems like a goit here. Especially since it wasn't even his plan that eventually revealed the spy. I understand his motives and there's certainly an argument there that he did the right thing because the need to find the spy was more important than Tycho's reputation or mental health. But...it also makes him a goit.

    I think one reason I got so caught up in this novel, actually, was the relative lack of battle scenes and then the variation in POV between them providing a reason to be interested other than simply the action. It's a personal failing but I really struggle to realise space battles in written text and Stackpole's are...well, they can be more precise and specific than some other authors. Which I imagine is a strength to those with an interest in this type of thing, but I get along better with a more abstract approach.

    As to Stryker's point, I actually disagree.

    I don't disagree that he had the chance to take out the Republic leadership and blew it, but I disagree that doing so would have been ultimately helpful to him.

    The plan was to tear the Alliance apart through feeding/creating tensions between humans and non-humans. It was an omnipresent theme and one that was effectively working.

    Had Loor taken out the Rebel leadership - human and alien alike, and, I think predominantly human, the ones he was trying to set up as the callous, uncaring ones - he might only have given the New Republic a tragedy around which to unite. The same way the Empire miscalculated that he destruction of Alderaan would frighten the Alliance into complying rather than serve as a symbol around which to rally?

    So I think that if his goal was to continue to spread fear and allow wider, more permanent economic and social issues to destroy the NR, rather than one group of replaceable leaders, he made the correct choice?
     
  6. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    The Krytos Trap is the book, I think, that signalled where the X-Wing books were headed under Allston. Of Stackpole's books, it's by far the most purely an ensemble work. This is mainly due to the way the characters are scattered around, I suppose, but it still helps.

    What I mean is that, while Corran has essentially been Stackpole's viewpoint character, that is no longer an option for anything outside the Lusankya. Even Wedge, I felt, was pushed even farther to the sidelines in this one; he essentially can't influence anything to do with Tycho's trial and so both Corran and Wedge, the two main characters to this point, are essentially sequestered away from large portions of the book's plot.

    All this very much to the good; this is the best Corran writing Stackpole has ever done, I think: by putting him in a purely problem solving plot by himself, he's able to, well, make him less of an annoying character.

    And the plot of this book is far better than the others in Stackpole's X-Wing books. I loved the trial portions of the book and all the parts dealing with Loor. Loor and Diric getting it in that one chapter is sort of the high point of the book and a great "whoa!" moment.

    I rank this one by far the best of Stackpole's X-Wing books, which makes it, for those keeping score, the best of all of Stackpole's EU work. Allston would eventually create the ultimate in ensemble writing with his Wraith books (and lay, in my opinion, the philosophical groundwork for the NJO and its extreme ensemble casting), but this is a nice gesture in that direction.
     
  7. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Becca, sorry, but I disagree with you. Setting off those explosives would've created a huge power vacuum. Basically, cutting the head and neck off of the snake. Inasmuch a snake has a neck. :p

    He messed up. A complete, total waste of nergon-14.
     
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  8. Thorn058

    Thorn058 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2008
    You are right it would have created a huge power vacuum in the short term but Becca is also correct in that the long term effects far outweigh the impact of destroying the leadership. Killing them makes them martyrs for the cause. You can kill a person or group of people but not an idea. Their deaths would have inspired the galaxy towards the cause of freedom and the reestablishment of the republic and against the tyranny of the empire.
     
  9. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Yeah, Loor's aim was to get the Rebels to tear themselves apart as that would make for an enduring schism in the way killing them wouldn't.

    As to the book, I need to reread it - it's been too long to recall what I thought of it.
     
  10. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Loor and Diric biting it within a page of each other was quite a shock. Having Iella be the one who has to kill her husband, even before she realized who he was, was a tear-jerker. And Loor getting plugged in the place of someone who wasn't even there -although Isard believed he was there- just screamed irony.
     
  11. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    First, I'll note that the guys in the museum were actually Vorru's guys, sent at Isard's order.

    On Ven's background, it's indeed strange and rather convenient that Ven's a lawyer. Especially when you think about it. Fighter pilots here are fighter pilots, period. That is their profession. They're not cops first, they're not commercial pilots first, and they're sure as hell not doctors or lawyers first. It's an interesting reflection on the Star Wars universe on a couple levels -- the idea that flying is so ingrained that normal people can be amateur, recreational starpilots of sufficient skill and experience to qualify as combat pilots. And more interestingly, the idea that the early NR (other interesting reflection -- it's only after they take Coruscant that Stackpole starts phasing out use of the term "Rebellion" as the most common reference to the NR and really using the appropriate "New Republic") either had so many professionals joining it, or was so willing to accommodate people's desires, or were so desperate for bodies, that they took trained valuable professionals like a lawyer, and let them do something completely unrelated on the frontlines.

    On the plot, I think what's really great is the way Stackpole broadens the scope of action. The Star Wars EU (and this is something the current EU has almost completely forgotten) cannot survive on an endless loop of space battles and lightsaber battles and blaster battles. There's got to be variation in the plot and the source of tension. And in Krytos, Stackpole gives us a legal drama and a prison escape story alongside the typical space action, and it's incredibly refreshing and broadening. Not to mention the fact that the political drama and counterterrorism thrown in on the side is also a great change of pace, and you've got a novel that's totally unique in the EU. Stackpole's good at this -- he gives us a detective/undercover cop drama and a mystic man-and-Force exploration story in I, Jedi, and a touch of world-exploration in Onslaught.

    On Tycho, I find it interesting that, for all Corran was suspicious of him, once we actually get to Tycho's trial, Stackpole almost works to undermine the suspense. Tycho's pretty unambiguously presented as a good guy throughout the whole series, but here we get a situation where no one's even suspicious of him. Not just Wedge, but the entire squadron is firmly behind him, and the only major character who's against him is Iella, and she comes to doubt it quickly enough. There really are no mind games here, no attempt to build is-he-or-isn't-he tension. Now, I love Tycho and his portrayal here only strengthens his awesomeness, and I really can't complain. Instead, I think it's an interesting decision to focus the tension not on "Is he guilty or not?" but instead on "Well, he's innocent, right, so how the hell is he going to get out of this?" Having Wedge basically sit by powerless was a bold move, and one that pays off to sell the idea that Wedge really is powerless in the field of politics, and it's the age of politics that the NR's entering. It ties in with the broader themes of the Coruscantization of the NR, the disillusioning Senate politicking, that Stackpole weaves in quite nicely.

    Which I think ties into the concerns over the Gavin/Asyr scenes -- this, like the politics, is a long-burning background plot element that really gets its payoff in Isard's Revenge. Stackpole's setting up these characters and fleshing them out to give us people to care about and identify with in the narrative outside Corran, Wedge, and Tycho and their respective love interests (though, sadly, Tycho gets pretty much no POV ever in the entire series), and they really play a big role in IR.

    Loved Corran's plotline; I'm a sucker for prison-escape dramas, and Corran having to think his way out on his own was a great bit of adventure. It winds up being a bit Corran-hagiographic, but whatever. Corran's decision is understandable in the context of his character, but it's also a bit frustrating in that it's obviously a case of "We can't hav
     
  12. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Becca - Definite agreement. This book was a sheer page-turner, and Havac touched on a few reasons why: Legal drama mixed with political thrills and counterterrorism intrigue. I must say, I've actually been really surprised that the first three books weren't just 1000 pages of space battles. I do love space battles, but I think that one of the reasons why I was a bit hesitant to read X-wing before was because I knew that they can't fill an entire book. But Stackpole has given us so much more, and the result here was a simply fantastic book.

    Before the offhand mentions of him I read in Rogue Squadron two months ago, I didn't even know that Iella had had a husband prior to meeting Wedge. I figured that Iella would learn, either in these books or in Isard's Revenge, that he had died, and Wedge would help her get over her grief, so seeing him alive and well came as a real shock to me. But man, what a heartbreaking ending. Especially when so many hints had been made that he would be the one to prove Tycho's innocence. I can't help but wonder what Wedge was hoping to do with Iella and Wedge, though --- he didn't know that he'd eventually be writing Isard's Revenge, or that either he or Allston would be writing any books set later than 8ABE --- so as far as he knew, Wedge would end up sticking it out with Qwi Xux. I think Stackpole may have mentioned in a podcast interview that it was actually Zahn who ended up putting Wedge and Iella together when he wrote Hand of Thrawn, though... [face_thinking] Anyway, romantic speculation aside, I just want to reassert that Iella really shone in this book, and it was great to see her be an awesome character and not just a love interest of Wedge.

    Corran walking into the courtroom at the end of his trial and triumphantly proclaiming "Maybe I can testify?" is about the epitome of cliche, but honestly, I would have been upset if Stackpole had done it any other way. Some cliches are cliched because they're awesome.

    I wasn't the biggest fan of Kirtan Loor's final thought being about Corran Horn... :p

    I'm really perplexed by the decision to take the captured TIE pilots from Alderaan to Tatooine. Surely, in 1996, even the most basic galactic map had to exist, that placed Alderaan near the core and Tatooine in the outer rim? Like, not even close to one another, at all? I guess Stackpole was following A New Hope's logic, which had the journey between the two taking a few hours at most, but still... :confused:

    Becca said: I felt like a lot of storylines converged and a lot of things were happening at once. Yeah, a lot of the storylines definitely did come together really well in the climax, but I still think the problem is that Stackpole laid down more storylines than he was able to wrap up. Even so, well-written and enjoyable climax.

    Halfie: I actually disagree with one of your points --- you feel like Wedge was pushed farther to the sidelines, but I feel like he was the novel's principal protagonist. It was precisely his powerlessness in Tycho's trial that pushed him up into that role, too. He cares for Tycho more than anyone (except probably Winter), and through his POV and his attempts to subvert the trial, we felt just how tragically powerless he felt. In a lot of ways, Tycho's trial was more about him than it was about Tycho.

    Havac: Maybe it's because I read Outcast first, and already knew that Ven was a lawyer, but I never saw it as overly convenient. You mention that Stackpole has been referring to the New Republic as the Rebellion; even now, with them settled on Coruscant, he still writes them as struggling to be a New Republic, and essentially, still feeling like a rebellion. And that was the thing with the Rebellion --- they accepted anybody who was willing to fight. Biggs was a farmer. Luke was a farmer. And Nawara Ven was a lawyer. When Ven joi
     
  13. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Stackpole did know that he was coming back for Isard's Revenge at the time -- it's Starfighters of Adumar that I think was added on after Stackpole was all done. But that still leaves the problem of Qwi, though the fact is that Stackpole did know he had I, Jedi to work in that same time period. With HOT and possibly SOA emerging at the same time as an opportunity to confirm the relationship, though, it's impossible to say what was really intended from the beginning. It's an interesting point, though, that Stackpole came in writing a romantic interest that maybe wasn't intended to work out -- another one of his great little realistic touches if so. It's noteworthy that Stackpole gave Wedge a sorta-love-interest in Elscol Loro (comics) before Iella even showed up, and then well after Iella was established, he had Wedge go out with Reina Faleur in the comics. Stackpole really gets the idea of people having multiple relationships and not all of them working out in the long term.

    On Tatooine, Stackpole has a couple weird geographic quirks. The most notable is that for any hyperspace journey, he acts as if there's no possibility of destinations in-between. You've got your origin, your final destination, and maybe some jumps in-between, all of which are treated as effectively deep-space reorients. There's never the prospect of refueling (these are the only books in which the concept of frequent refueling even plays a role) between your origin and final destination, there's never a stopover, and Coruscant is the galaxy's sole source of reinforcements or New Republic aid. It's an absurdly small galaxy. One of the few issues of immersiveness that he just blows completely.

    On the storylines, I don't think there was anyway around an ending infodump wrap-up. There's really no big scene you can have of "And we have enough bacta now." Some lab scene of Hirf synthesizing his cure wouldn't fit the perspective we'd had in which that was strictly background action to the real plot; same perspective issue with a POV of Isard conquering Thyferra or some war-room scene solely of Wedge hearing Thyferra was taken. Stackpole focuses on the important action, then skips ahead a week to let the characters already know a bit of set-up for the next book and the resolution to a background thread, and plays out a pair of big revelations in one scene. It wouldn't be terrible, but I also don't feel a need for a scene of "Mirax! Yay, you're alive! Let's hug and self-analyze!" It's economical storytelling that works for me.

    About Ven, it's convenient in that, of all things, there's a lawyer in the squadron. And he's not only a lawyer, but he's a criminal defense lawyer. And not only that, but he's pretty good too. It's just an obvious case of plot-demand. It's like if the Krytos plague sprang up, and Rhysati was like, "I'm a relatively unaccomplished but surprisingly good microbacteriologist! Assign me to combating the virus!" It's rather too neatly coincidental, especially in that this isn't just like being a good mechanic or good shooter or person who knows a little something about smuggling; it's a graduate-level-educated professional showing up in a completely different field. Imagine it turned out Doctor Chewbacca actually had a Ph. D. in particle physics, just so he could figure out the Death Star's weakness himself.

    I wasn't really complaining about the NR accepting him so much as remarking on the interesting nature of the fact that the NR was still either desperate for bodies or willing to accommodate a desire to fight, and the fact that combat fighter piloting is simply not, in the Star Wars galaxy, the highly-trained and exclusive profession it is here.

    On the Twi'leks, I think it's more that Tal'dira ditched the politicians and Wedge went along with it, both because it was clear Tal'dira had the power to push them around and push them out, and because he didn't like and didn't trust Koh'shak (there's a bit of history to that in the comics) and didn't like politics in general, so he preferred the straightforward dealings of Tal'dira, whom he
     
  14. Thorn058

    Thorn058 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2008
    Havac's posting brings and interesting point to light. Early on in the Alliance we can see two distinct branches(they are probably more) of the alliance. The military branch and the political branch. During the early stages of the rebellion they had to mirror one another in that the surest way for teh political brnach to achieve its goals was to seek a military solution. ODes this mean that the political branch would recruit volunteers to help them to come up with a political form of governing after the Empire is defeated and many of the principles of the Old Republic restored? Would this even be an option when things look to be against them. Would the political branch be spending time on policy making when they are fighting a war.

    AS this pertains to Ven, if someone volunteers for the alliance military does this put them line for the political branch if they have the skill set or are they specifically joining the the military? I know the alliance uses a Military Tibunal in matters of military justice but would they have a JAG corps for prosecution and defense or would they just choose random officers? Could Ven have been offered such a job and turned it down wanting to be on the front lines? We have seen this type of behavior before form Wedge. Officers turning down promotion and office and administrative jobs to stay front line active.
     
  15. EagleEye

    EagleEye Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Nawara's role as a lawyer is certainly convenient for this storyarc, perhaps too convenient, but at least Stackpole told us he was a lawyer in the first book rather than just bringing it up randomly when Wedge realizes that they are going to require some legal counsel.

    The other thing that was really nice about this book compared to other Rogue Squadron stories is the relatively normal objectives they are given. There is no "capture this moon by yourselves" or "bring down the planetary defenses of the most heavily defended and symbolically important planet in the galaxy armed with some pistols and crappy fighters that you have to buy yourselves" or trying to liberate Thyferra. The objectives are guarding convoys and similar things that are actually quite believeable from a snubfighter squadron. Don't get me wrong, seeing them do the impossible is fun, but at some point you just can't suspend your disbelief anymore.

    I also like setting up the future conflict with the Warlord Zsinj and the knowledge that Lusankya is in fact a gigantic warship.

    I wish that we had a bit more of the story from the perspective of aliens in these books. Stackpole goes out of his way to give some spotlight to the tension between humans and nonhumans and it would be interesting to get more of that from the viewpoint of a nonhuman.
     
  16. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Ugh, yes, of course the goons at the library were bad dudes. This is what I get for leaving the last hundred pages until two days before the discussion starts cus of Christmas, etc. and then rush-reading. I mean, on the one hand, this was a great book to read through quickly; I was grateful it was such a page-turner, but on the other, time and being too excited to get to the next bit already means looking dumb in front of my regiment. ;)

    I'll weigh in briefly on the Nawara issue. I really liked the idea that he'd been a lawyer previously being introduced in the first novel, mainly because it really did add a sense of flavour - that the Rebellion (or fledgling NR) accepted anyone and people left all walks of life to fight for it because it was that important. I also liked the random surreality of it.

    And yes, if you're going to give a character that unusual a background, you want to make use of it. But the manner in which it was made use of - having him be a really good criminal defence lawyer and taking centre stage in an incredibly publicised trial ended up making it feel a little like, in retrospect, the decision to give him this background was just a calculated set-up. It retrospectively creates a sense of overt convenience. I mean, sure, if you're going to have Tycho on trial, it makes sense to give his lawyer a big role and to have that be someone we care about, not a brand new character, since we're already dealing with a large ensemble, so I'm not sure what a better compromise would have been, but in terms of Nawara's character rather than the larger plots of the series, it might have seemed more realistic and less tense if Nawara had had to step in after Tycho's original lawyer proved incompetent or corrupt, or if Nawara had stepped in to defend a Rogue who was captured and put on trial on a distant planet/culture. It's not a dealbreaker because the other side of things is that we get more of Nawara which was unexpectedly enjoyable, but it is something I think merits discussion.

    Which leads into the alien perspectives issue. I think the problem here is that the problem is artificial, and all the aliens in Rogue Squadron whose opinions we are likely to hear about, know that. Both Asyr and Nawara get quite a lot here but their concerns are variously centred around the squadron, Corran, and other political affiliations rather than the current virus. The non-humans of Rogue Squadron are all in a position to really understand why the virus was created. And there isn't much chance to get a "man on the ground" perspective from either side of the human/alien divide because, well, we're seeing the Rogues and affiliated characters, not Joanne Average.

    Further I'm not sure what seeing someone raging that the New Republic wasn't helping them or their family would have told us that we didn't already know: it's horrible, it's unfair, but we would also know that this person was mistaken in their assumption that it was negligence on the part of the NR, and since we already know that there's a lot of tension between humans and aliens over this, and why...I don't think it would have changed anything. If Stackpole were trying to tell the story of how the NR really was handling this poorly and didn't care so much because they were aliens, then that perspective would have been necessary. But he isn't. So any scene would just have been "Yup, the propaganda is working!" and...I'm not sure that's a necessary scene?

    As Hav hilariously notes: "Mirax! Yay, you're alive! Let's hug and self-analyze!"

    Economy of storytelling.

    Which, by the way, Hav, you do convince me halfway that there wasn't much of a way around the exposition of the finale. Though I still feel that even if the scenes in question wouldn't have served a particularly necessary narrative purpose (much as the discussion above on the alien perspective), just giving one or two of those revelations a scene would have at least served the purpose of trimming down the exposition. Perhaps Mirax could have had some "tri
     
  17. Ultima_1

    Ultima_1 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    Another nice realistic bit is that in Wedge's Gamble, Isard specifically said she wanted Bothans to be vulnerable to Krytos, but in Krytos Trap, it's said that they aren't. It shows that even though her plan was working in broad strokes (until the better cure was found), it wasn't working perfectly.
     
  18. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
     
  19. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Heh, I have fond memories of this book, I think it was my first X-wing book, as I was just getting into Star Wars novels and this happened to be at my local library. Heck, I remember reading through it early one morning while having to wait for textbooks.

    I haven't read the book in a few years, so most of this is going off what I remember plus what I remember from browsing through Wookieepedia, so if I get any details wrong, apologies for that.

    Now, aside from how convenient it was that Nawara was a competent lawyer who could defend Tycho, this just seemed like a really important book, back then, and even moreso now in retrospect (no matter how much the Del Rey novels have tried to erase or ignore what happened in Bantam novels, though that's just my own opinion).

    The New Republic just took Coruscant and is now mostly the official galactic power, as Coruscant is the official center of civilization. Which gives it an advantage over the various other Imperial factions, in terms of legitimacy. At the same time, Coruscant is now full of dead or dying aliens, which really drives a wedge between the alien and human members of the New Republic, a theme sorta continued from the previous novel (gotta remember to go comment on that someday). Its a theme that pops up occasionally in the EU, though sadly hasn't been the focus of any series for... well, a while now? Most of the more recent novels I can think of that deal with any sort of social issues usually have the Empire oppressing almost everybody or just the tired old anti-Jedi sentiment. It also helps that we had an ensemble cast in the Rogues, with characters like Gavin and Asyr, and... various other characters whose names I can't remember, to be honest, but still, this was Rogue Squadron at nearly its best, short of the Legacy-comics version (I still wince to think of how Rogue Squadron was in LotF). And Asyr's tension with Borsk was pretty important, always nice to see more of Borsk, though its nice to know where her loyalties lie. Even if we ended up with Gavin now being the "insta-maturity" character with Corran occupied.

    The Provisional Council's politics seem really refreshing compared to the almost complete lack of Senators we see in current novels. While these were written before the prequels, we can still see that Mon Mothma was the highest ranking, but there were quite a few other big players on the Council too.

    Loor was actually pretty interesting in this book. While he's definitely not heroic, in some ways he's had quite a lot of character development over the last few books, almost enough to be a serious threat. Heck, with Corran stuck in Lusankya, Loor is the one growing in terms of power and ambition, until he gambles and loses, at which point he actually is willing to defect- mainly to save his own hide, but still, I remember how he thought it was a good thing Corran was dead, they probably wouldn't be able to stand being on the same side. Then he's gunned down as he reflects one last time. While this is Stackpole, so self-analysis is pretty much guaranteed, but still, I thought Loor's death scene was appropriate as he realized his flaws one last time. He stayed mean till the end, but still, also kind of surprising that while he was originally a rival/counterpart to Corran, he dies alone, never knowing of Corran's fate. Too bad his decrypt key was kind of predictable though (I think that was in this book, can't remember), but that really undermined his competence.

    The trial... what I remember of it, it was easily part law, part media. Its a long process, with plenty of scenes devoted to it. A lot of circumstantial evidence, but there's at least some logic involved (like when Nawara was cross-examining that intelligence operative who examined double agents' bank accounts). I remember back before FotJ started I was hoping we could have a full-on political/media struggle between the Jedi and Daala, and while Nawara was mentioned... well, let's just say this book set very high standards, and yeah, I doubt any current book will ever come c
     
  20. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    Say what you will about this book, but it was filled with tension - courtroom drama, Rogues against the leaders for good reason, dealing with the Krytos Plague.

    Wedge - we start off with Wedge giving a speech, reminding the people it's not yet time to relax and focus on nation-building. We also get the beginnings of the feud between the Rogues and Fey'lya, and he's going to prove to be a major irritant for them. We have his passionate plea to the leadership and the extent to which he believed in Tycho's innocence. Leia was able to convince him otherwise by making him see he was being a bit selfish and rash. Wedge had always helped others, and a lot of people needed help from the Krytos Plague. Wedge proceeded on the right path, thinking that if they can help calm the hysteria of the plague, people would begin to think rationally. He was so certain that he could help his friend that he felt devasted when he felt he failed his friend after he testified. But he was able to provide additional evidence that would help clear Tycho's name as being the spy in Rogue Squadron. Mirax's "death" struck him hard, but that's a moot point. As for the mission to Ryloth and the incident involving Tal'dira, while I think Wedge was just dealing with the head merchants, who would eventually be responsible for shipping the ryll kor, he was smart enough to know he didn't want to make an enemy of Tal'dira, but he didn't want to be seen as a coward as well.

    Tycho - He was definitely a sacrificial lamb of sorts because the politicians wanted to be certain that they were viewed differently than the Empire by the public. At the same time, though, he was in a no-win scenario. If we found not guilty, the suspicion that he was a Lusankya agent remained. If he was found guilty outright, he would be killed. If he was fonud guilty but was acting as a Lusankya agent, he would either be in an institute for life or would be found mentally sane a week later and released. That would have been a political disaster. Despite it all, he had a quiet dignity about him and had absolute faith that he would be exonerated completely one day, though I bet he was glad he didn't have to take the stand at the end.

    Nawara - We saw his oratory skills in the previous book. Now we saw his legal skills, and they were good. Very good. He used all the tricks he knew to get Tycho freed. He also served as a diplomat of sorts when the Rogues went to Ryloth.

    Corran - Even though he was on the side, so as to speak, in this story, his story proved to be the key to the book. All he was able to provide Isard was a few juicy bits of info to use against the Corellian Diktat and a lot of frustration. It was his detective skills that gave him the edge in his escape. I especially liked the conversation he unknowingly had with Jan Dodonna - realizing that despite his age, Dodonna had his faculties and knew exactly whom Corran reminded him of. The key moment for him came when he got access to the terminal and learned that Tycho was indeed innocent. Boy did he feel rotten afterwards. He then used reason to learn the identity of the real spy and realize the truth about Emtrey and that Cracken knew the truth all along. Corran learning about his potential Jedi heritage was a surprise, but we really don't see a resolution to that until Whistler played his father's message in I, Jedi.

    Pash - There's not much to say about him, though he was obviously put in a jam when he was called to the stand. He wanted to help Nawara but ended up hurting him.

    Ooryl, Rhysati, Riv Shiel - Not much to say about them.

    Erisi - The only thing she did outright was cry "Terrorist" when she learned about the Ashern. Other than that, she faded into the background until she was "captured" by Isard. It was Corran who put the pieces together and realized she was the spy.

    Gavin/Asyr Sei'lar - I don't see how you could discuss one without the other. Asyr had been living a very dark life, and Gavin provided some much-needed light and happiness for her. She under
     
  21. cartermacgyver

    cartermacgyver Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Nawara being a lawyer and having that be so convenient didn't bother me too much. When I first read these novels, JAG was one of the TV shows I watched with some regularity. From the beginning I was associating Nawara with Harm Rabb Jr. So having him be a good enough pilot for Rogue Squadron and be a fantastically good criminal defense lawyer never bother me. What is interesting is that he seems to be a better lawyer, or at least somewhat more comfortable in that role, than as a fighter pilot. From his exposition on why he joined the Rebellion back int Rogue Squadron it made sense to me that he wanted to be on the front lines. In his mind I think he saw being a criminal defense lawyer as being on the front lines back in his life before joining up, and after he did he wanted to fight back and be on the front lines still. Which for him, and again referencing his discussion with Corran and the others on vengeance vs justice, he wanted to kick some tail in a more physical way.

    What I really love about this book, and the whole X-wing series, is how realistic relationships are. Wedge likes Iella, Iella likes Wedge, but it takes them YEARS and many starts and stops and other relationships to get to being in a full time relationship, much less married. A nice bit of plotting goes to Stackpole as well. That Iella was married was something that Corran talked about when discussing his former partner, it just happened that Wedge was never in the room or the person being talked to when that fact came up. So it was easy to feel the shock that Diric's back and the first time we know that is when Wedge is about to try to take her to dinner, complete with having flowers for her. That Wedge genuinely likes Diric, and that Diric becomes important to keeping Wedge's morale up through the trial, and believes wholeheartedly in Tycho's innocence and trys to find a way to prove it is a nice touch. Wedge doesn't get snarky or petty that there is this competition for Iella, he backs off and puts himself in "friend" category while also being a friend to Diric. It's nice to read again because there is no competition. There is one conversation where Diric tells Wedge that if anything happened between Iella and Wedge while he was a prisoner that he doesn't blame anyone and Wedge shut him down on that line of thinking so quick its endearing.

    I don't mind the Gavin scenes in this one. Gavin is growing up, and as he repeats many times, trying out that maturity thing that people keep telling him about. Is he possibly already the most mature 16.5-17 year old out there? Oh yeah, but this is Star Wars, and at this point with everything else he's seen and been through, its makes sense. Besides these scenes with Asyr helping to clean up the virus were as close to "man on the street" as we got. Here was where I actually felt afraid of the virus and worried over what it could do to people, not the political splits it was causing in the fledgling NR, but to real people.
     
  22. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    The human - nonhuman dichotomy that was highlighted in this book was a really good plot point. As slimy a fellow as he is, Fey'lya's accusations of some Provisional Council (or, as I like to call it, ProvCoun) members unconsciously assuming that being human was the norm actually did have some merit to them. Stackpole did a good job of exploring those assumptions throughout the rest of the book. The LOTF/FOTJ era is a time that could use this sort of exploration --- almost everyone in the recent books is a human. The Jedi Council, the government, and, well, everybody else.

    I also noticed a lot of clenching and unclenching fists, as well as wall-eyed stares. :)
     
  23. MistrX

    MistrX Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2006
    I liked this one the most of Stackpole?s first four X-Wing books. It?s the most complex story of the series. While the first two were basically straight up action stories, one involving the formation and capture of a single target while the second was all about the operation to capture Coruscant, here we get the less straightforward aftermath. Politics get involved with the actions of the provisional council and the missions Rogue Squadron gets to handle as the New Republic has to handle was has become a domestic issue with them in the Krytos virus. Wedge even notes that at one point in the story how all of the missions they had were political and that attacking the terrorist cell at the end is almost refreshing in its clarity. Kirtan Loor has that cell striking at targest, trying to maneuver around both Isard and Flirry Vorru. Tycho?s trial takes center stage, though the fact that Cracken knew the entire time that he hadn?t killed Corran kind of takes away from it. What?s probably the simplest story in the book is Corran?s escape from Lusankya and the couple of twists we get at the end. It?s all about the torture and escape, which is actually simpler than I would have expected. And hey, an appearance by a movie character! Always love those. I do like the implication here, which again is something I wouldn?t have picked up the first time through, that Jan knew Nejaa Halcyon, telling Corran that he might have known his grandfather.

    I have to say, it?s a bit frustrating that this book has the second time Kirtan Loor could have wiped out the Rogues but chose not to do so. He could have bombed the factory in Wedge?s Gamble, but he didn?t because... I don?t know, he?s stupid. And here, he could have blown them all up, but again he didn?t because that wouldn?t do enough psychological damage to the NR? This guy needs a copy of the Evil Overlord list.

    Gotta love Latin popping up in Star Wars.

    Nice tie-in with Courtship as Han begins his hunt for Zsinj here.

    And oh the retconning that this book must have needed. Corran believing that the Clone Wars Jedi had to have been dead for over 40 years, an 8 km-long SSD, and the Jedi only being around for 30 generations? Where did that last number come from?
     
  24. MistrX

    MistrX Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Oh Loor. Loor Loor Loor. I was shocked by his death the first time I read the book. I had expected him to have some face time with Corran, some manner of confrontation. His interaction with Iella was pretty good, though. I guess I didn't like seeing him die because I wasn't quite sure his story was done. Of course, he'd ended things with the Imperials, so that's probably a major reason, but it still seemed like there was more to go with him, especially in regards to Corran. I was disappointed to see that not happen.

    The mass resignation was an interesting moment. One last twist to set up the final book and set our heroes on a path to finish off Isard. I remember being a bit thrown off by it, like it had come out of the blue, as if something like that shouldn't happen after the story had concluded. It works as that final hook, I suppose. As far as the main storyline goes, the major finales here does seem like this is the series' climax with so many arcs and threads getting tied up here. The Bacta War becomes a much more personal book for the characters because of it, only wrapping up their own problems and issues. I think it almost separates that last book from the first three because of the shift in setting and motivations for some of the characters. It's no longer about pushing and holding the Core, it's now about taking down Isard and that's pretty much it.

    My take on the exposition-heavy finale: I figure Wedge gets so many one-on-one conversations with some superior officer that it wouldn't have killed them to have him talking to Cracken or something about Lusankya escaping or Tycho getting off and having Cracken be like, "Oh, by the way, someone I have someone who wants to see you" and have Mirax walk in. It just might feel like we're getting a little less dumped on at the end there. Or heck, how about the Corran/Mirax reunion scene? Did we get that?
     
  25. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000

    MistrX, I actually wrote a fanfic which includes a Corran/Mirax reunion scene. It's called Liberty and Custody, and you can click the link in my sig to read it.
     
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