CT A question for Imperial sympathizers.

How do you guys enjoy the movies while supporting the Empire? I guess that they did really good in the Battle of Hoth and on the Tantiv IV, but they had 2 Death Stars blown up and a lot more defeats. Plus, the movies focus on the Rebels and gave us legendary characters. I'll admit that I've been on the edge of what side I'm on. But I really am curious. How do you guys do it?

 

Calling GrandAdmiralJello

 

Quite easily. I do it by realizing everyone's human and these films are deliberately slanted. Besides there ARE compelling characters that are Imperials too and just because one is *told* one side is 'better' doesn't make it fact. All are grey.

 

Eh, sometimes it's fun to root for the bad guys. Even if they're getting their butts kicked.

 

I prefer the Imperial ships and design ethic in general

 

Me too! I like the arrow design and just the cool sleek look of the Star Destroyers in particular

 

Basically ESB was a win for the Empire though. Hence the title. They got a whole movie.

I do get frustrated in ROTJ (and ANH. But it is weird for me, because millions of Imperials died but the irritating ones bit the dust), but for the most part, I just enjoy the films and what's going on. I still think the Rebellion is interesting and has strong characters, they're just really not my favorite. To be completely honest, I enjoy the films mostly because of the journey, not because of the end. I've come to terms with the fact it's fictional and that the good guys are going to win because that's what sells. Sometimes your team doesn't win, and it's sad, but you get over it. (Or in my case, you write stories, but that's besides the point).

The films make it a lot easier on sympathizers because they give both sides a chance and don't paint every single Imperial as "pure evil". If you watch the characters they have certain traits, emotions, silent interactions with each other, things that make them human. I can't say the same for some of the other media I have seen, though, and that is what's extremely frustrating to me. Not the films.

 

I don't "sympathize" with the Empire, but I have no problem enjoying what they bring to the movies.

I don't have a problem with people who do sympathize, I just think their arguments are usually stupid as hell, and in no way mesh with what's on screen, or off screen. They're the wrong arguments, the wrong cries of support. Like the cry of "law and order", "the Empire restored order", "the Empire brought peace to the galaxy", for example. What movies were they watching? It makes absolutely no ******* sense, it's like they made it up, because the Empire was anything but orderly or lawful, and there was no peace to be found during the Imperial period.

I get it. It's all part of the roleplay, it's shtick, it's contrarianism. Which is absolutely fine, it's good fun, and I have no problem with it.

But it's horrible roleplaying, the portrayal is the complete opposite of the reality. It's the equivalent of Rebel fans roleplaying rebels as, idk, anti-alien pacifist authoritarians. They're supporting a phony version of the Empire that never actually existed. What are they sympathizing with, really? It's like sympathizing with Hitler because he was a peaceful humanitarian that supported communism. In other words, it's like they don't sympathize at all.

I'd be more impressed, more amused, if they actually supported brutality, extreme violence and tyranny, if they supported the destruction of Alderaan, if they supported Human High Culture, if they supported anti-alien policies, because those filthy aliens are subhuman animals, amirite? Then they'd be roleplaying actual Imperials, supporting the Empire as it actually was. They should support the slaughter of Jawas and a pair of innocent old moisture farmers, because those are the methods of the Empire, that was what the Empire was about, brutal subjugation, even when entirely unnecessary. They ******* love crushing people for no reason, and if you supported the Empire, you would, too. You wouldn't make any excuses, you wouldn't try to explain, because then would you really be supporting the Empire? No, you'd be apologizing for the Empire. If you supported the Empire, instead of trying to explain things away or assign blame, you'd just flat out support the Empire's actions, you'd love their actions and celebrate them.

But you can't do that, because you don't actually support the Empire or sympathize with them, because it's all an act, and not at all a convincing one. You have to ignore what the Empire really was and make up a fake Empire in its place in order to pretend to support them.

 

Concerning the two factions overall, I always thought the OT allotted more screen-time for the Empire. We actually see very little of the Rebellion as an operation, at least comparably speaking. The only real reason I'd ever side with the Empire is because I totally dig the look and overall idea of Death Star gunners. Seriously, I would watch an entire Star Wars movie centered around one of these guys. Those helmets are defiantly rad.



Here's one covering his ears during heavy cannon fire:


"It's so loud! Why do they have to be so loud!?"

 

I have no idea why I'm going to be doing this again...but...here we go. Sigh. Going by the films...

Other than the Jawa/moisture farmer incident, Tarkin, Vader, and Palpatine, I see nobody else murdering or oppressing anyone. In fact, some of them are quite noble and sacrifice (see Captain Needa). So no, we aren't just making it up. Do I completely agree with the idea of the Empire? No. (On the other hand, do I agree with most governments... not a chance.) Do I think they're all Nazis and would kick kittens or something? Also no. Some of them? Horrible people who I would shoot out the airlock. Are all of them evil? No.

So question time: if they really hated aliens so much, would they be hiring bounty hunters that were aliens or would ANY aliens be around? No. Sure they mostly show humans, but most of the Rebellion is human-centric too. Do they show the Imperials going up to alien species and just pummeling them or enslaving them? Nope. Jabba the Hutt has slaves, but the Empire doesn't. Do they show Imperials going up to random civilians and just shooting them? I really see no excessive brutality besides the whole Jawa/Beru/Owen and Tarkin thing. If I'm missing something, go ahead and point it out. I'm sure I will have forgotten something. But the Ewoks even lived on the same planet as the Imperial base. I wonder why they were alive, but then again, maybe the Empire was leaving the teddy-bears alone because it would have been senseless violence to kill them. Just maybe.

The DS II wasn't even supposed to be used as a superweapon. It was bait for Palpatine's plan.

Another question for everyone to think about...in a universe with billions upon billions of sentient beings, why can they destroy one Rebel base and completely crush the Rebellion? Why do they have so few people? Fear of joining the Rebellion? Maybe. But is that logical in a universe that large? Is it logical that even after the Rebellion destroyed the Death Star they still had only 3-5 transports worth of people? I'm not sure myself.

And...how would it last for 20+ years if it was that cruel? I know the EU tries to argue "slavery, mayhem, violence!", but that doesn't really make sense. If they enslaved many or every alien planet and had to maintain that, it'd be pretty damn tough. There are only so many Imperials and there are a lot of planets. I choose to think logically they didn't, and instead dealt with insurgents or illegal operations as needed.

And to be completely honest I support the Imperials, not their leaders. So most of these arguments are moot to me, because I don't care about Tarkin, Palpatine, Vader. I like the ships, the uniforms, the real people.

And I sympathize, I think critically, I'm not a moron. For example, if I loved my child unconditionally would I celebrate if they went out and got arrested? I wouldn't. Doesn't mean I can't still like them. I'm not going to celebrate every action of the Empire because I'm not a mindless drone with no free thought. I don't approve of every Imperial action. But I'm not condemning every Imperial for things they didn't do. I'm not going to judge them for choosing what side they did, because I don't know their reasons. I can see a lot of valid reasons to join, actually. Especially when you think about the things I mentioned prior.

If you can prove the majority of the Imperials are heartless, cruel people, if you can prove that they joined with evil intentions. If you can prove that Ozzel, Piett, Veers, Needa, Jerjerrod, Suba, Childsen, Gherant, Treidum, Cass, Jir, Tanbris, etc. etc. were all those things and they committed atrocities, then maybe I'll rethink my stance. But you can't. Who knows if Piett joined because crime was affecting his family in the Outer Rim? Who knows if someone in Childsen's family was killed by a Rebel attack? They'd still have to join the Rebels to be good people? I don't agree.

But I don't support the Rebellion because I agree with them less. The Rebellion wasn't exactly being trustworthy (but freedom, I know, it makes it all okay). I see the Rebellion as a bit hypocritical (I mean, come on, they stole the Death Star plans with the intention of destroying it, then essentially broke into the DS I, killed soldiers, then blew up the thing (and you know they were going to blow it up anyway, even if Tarkin hadn't used it, not even disable it)), and I'm not even going to get into Rebels here...I know I'm going to get flak for that view, but oh well.

The bottom line is, neither faction is perfect. I just support the one I personally agree with more. In an ideal world, the Empire after Tarkin, Palpatine and Vader would be a much better place because I see those two as the problem, not the Empire itself. Even Vader got fed up with Palpatine. If that makes any sense.

If you want to believe we must be denying things to support them, that's fine. Go ahead. But we're not acting, nor are we stupid or in denial.

 

Well said V but even the top three you name aren't as nasty as most paint them.

 

I do disagree in some regards, but we already established that elsewhere.

 

Eh, whatever a lot is fan projection not fact but what can we do?

 

So, other than the defining Imperials (they literally define what the Empire is) and their defining actions...

Yes, Captain Needa, a noble fellow. I've always liked him.

He's summarily executed, despite his nobility.

But I know, you don't support Vader, you just support the people that stand by as he executes a noble officer.

But they do dress like Nazis and slaughter innocents. I mean, IU obviously they don't know they dress like Nazis, but Lucas did, and so do we.

Of course, we have, like, zero examples of Imperials refusing to follow an immoral order, or standing up to immorality at all. Unless I'm forgetting all the objections raised as Tarkin gave the order to fire.

Duh.

Yes, actually.

There's an entire human history of examples.

Yes. Slaughtered Jawas, remember?

I think it's quite disingenuous to dismiss these things as some exception.

Riiiiight. That's why it had an operational superweapon.

Because George Lucas has no sense of scale.

Or because it makes for a better story, despite the lack of scale.

Twenty years is a long time?

And if it wasn't cruel, why the celebrations, even on Coruscant?

You don't support the people that created the Empire and everything it stands for, that created the ideas, the way of governance, and carried all of that out...but you support the Empire? Okay then.

You can't separate the dictators from the dictatorship.

Perfectly valid reason, imo. Shallow, but at least it's genuine.

Though the obvious connection between Imperial uniforms and Nazi uniforms is a bit troubling...as is the symbolism of such massive ships with massive firepower...

Maybe this reason isn't so valid, after all.

At least you haven't brought up the law and order nonsense.

Do you support any Imperial action?

Jawas, farmers, Alderaan, Bespin...these are the defining actions of the Empire in the movies. Lucas uses these actions to represent the Empire, to establish who they are.

I don't have to prove their intentions, I can prove they supported a government that blew up a defenseless planet. They signed up, or stayed on, with a military that sought to rule the galaxy through fear and oppression.

The thing is, you don't seem to support the Empire, just some of the people in it. You'd support those people regardless of what government they served under...so why support the Empire? Why not support a galaxy free of Imperial government, aka the Empire?

How can you say this? You don't really know anything about the Empire, you can only judge it by its actions in the movies. Then again, those people are the Empire, they created it.

It's not like you know that the Empire had a great health care program or efficient taxes, or that they did a great job improving the development index of the Outer Rim (judging by Tatooine they didn't). If you could point to something like that, you'd have something to support.

Your support of the Empire itself is based on almost nothing. It seems entirely based on a few Imperial officers.

What we know is what Palpatine announces in ROTS. That the Empire's first act was one of genocide. Palpatine named himself Emperor for life. We know that 20 years later the Imperial Senate was disbanded by the Emperor.

Oh, I do believe you're in denial, and I don't believe your support is well founded.

You apparently just made your case, and I think you made no case at all.

 

That's fine CT and AFS but you aren't US and you saying our difference of perception isn't founded or is due to denial doesn't make it fact.

 

So is your guys manner dismissing those that disagree like we're idiots. We're NOT.

 

Hey, I just like certain Imperials. Doesn't mean I root for or condone a totalitarian, oppressive dictatorship who slaughters and enslaves people by the dozens and blows up planets to prove a point.

 

I think it's telling that the support for the Empire seemingly involved complete renunciation of the Imperial leadership and, by extension, its government...

I mean, the common people, The People, are a sort of constant here. They're people, they tend to be similar, generally. They have the same potential for good or evil. Of course there's decent people on both sides. However, in the Empire, The People don't have a vote, they don't have a choice, so their decency doesn't count for much.

The way of governance, the government and its leaders (the leaders receiving no support here), are the variable, the difference. The Empire's way of governance, totalitarian autocratic dictatorship, is demonstrably evil in the movies. Totalitarianism, in itself, is inherently oppressive, and "absolute power corrupts absolutely". So I doubt the Empire would be good under any individual.

The Imperial Senate was disbanded entirely (it didn't have much power to begin with anyway) and control was given to the regional governors, who are to use fear to keep the local systems in line, fear of a giant battle station with the ability to destroy an entire planet.

The rebellion isn't really fighting some random Imperial officer (the people who are receiving support here) or citizen, they're fighting the government and its leaders. It's not a rebellion against Steve the Imperial citizen. Even though Steve the Imperial citizen apparently did nothing after one of his leaders destroyed a planet on a whim. And the people who did do something....almost certainly joined the rebellion, or tried to subvert the Empire. Steve the Imperial citizen doesn't have many options, because he can't vote or anything. He doesn't even have representatives. So Steve the Imperial's decency doesn't even matter, because he doesn't get a choice or even a say on the matter. If he says anything, his government will use fear to keep him in line.

 

I like the empire because I like Sidious,

the most fleshed out, complex character in the who saga next to Luke and Dooku, in my opinion


I do not like the idea of the death star or some of the other atrocities they did, nor do other people who prefer the empire, just some choose to not read this and stick their fingers in their ears, which is sad.

 

Let's try to steer clear of too much fan psychoanalysis. Address the arguments vigorously by all means.