After the prequels, what happened to Palpatine's wits?

Ok. So I've tried to ignore this for some time, but now I must let it out...


Palpatine, strong in the Dark Side of the Force, the Sith who disguised himself from the Jedi as the only person in the galaxy with the authority to rule over them. Palpatine, the master manipulator, responsible for the corruption of the Chosen One. Palpatine, the evil genius who brought the plan for the fall of the Republic into fruition.

Palpatine, the emperor of a galactic dictatorship that boasted a huge navy featuring kilometer-long Star Destroyers and planet-sized Death Stars. Palpatine, the ruler of the Empire for 20-some odd years only to see his downfall created by a ragtag band of Rebels and a group of Ewoks?!!!!

.....



Alright, I know that Lucas deserves most of the blame for forgetting about realism. But how can someone with the genius to bring an end to the Republic - which has stood since the invention of the hyperdrive - allow a Rebel Alliance of Teenagers and a group of teddy bears defeat him?

To me, that's just mind-boggling.

 

His success had made him overconfident. It's very realistic.



Palpatine is brilliant, but not perfect
/LM

 

Just basing his downfall on overconfidence is like saying that Hitler was defeated because of self-depression.

Palpy had experienced enough success in thwarting the Republic during his reign as Supreme Chancellor that overconfidence could have very well caused him to mess up. But being a conspirator meant that composure, patience, and subterfuge are musts. He was THE Sith Lord to overthrow the Republic, but what happened once he became Emperor? My thinking is that the Dark Side had taken a toll on him mentally in additional to physically.

 

Palpatine took a huge risk that failed to pay off. He made a gamble and exposed himself to weakness, which the Rebels took advantage of and exploited. It was based on his overconfidence. Luke said it himself.

 

Given the fact of Palpatine's very precarious (and successful) ascent to power in the prequels, it becomes psychologically plausible to imagine that he is undone by his overconfidence. If you really want to look at things critically, though, Palpatine's "Death Star" plan in "Return of the Jedi" was rather poorly conceived; he should have learned his lesson from the Battle of Naboo (ie. just as having the Death Star shield generator on Endor [in "Jedi"], the Droid Army controlled solely by the Trade Federation ship in "The Phantom Menace" was a very bad idea).

 

I think that overconfidence was a large part of it, however there was also the fact that for 20 years, there was no opposition that was a serious threat. He was able to rule openly for that time, not having to be as vigilant as he was during his rise to power; instead of destroying or neutralizing his enemies through subterfuge, he could simply order them killed. As time went on, his skills as a schemer grew rusty. He did not loose his wits or become stupid; he just made a mistake. Don't forget that he came very close to succeeding. I've always thought that if the stormtroopers had just entered the bunker with the intent to kill rather than capture the rebels in there it would have been over.

 

Well, for starters, Palpatine wasn't defeated by the rebels or Ewoks.
He wasn't even defeated by Luke (who actually played a big part however)
He was killed by the one thing in the galaxy he didn't account for: Anakin overcoming his greatest fear, death, and ending his life to save Luke.
If Luke died, then there's no way Vader would ever be gutsy enough to turn. When Luke showed up on the scene, Vader saw his chance.
If Palpatine lived, he certainly would've either shifted to some form of plan B to pull off a victory, or he would've escaped and counted his losses.
I think he would've seen the rebels were unusually crafty in this battle (with the help of Ewoks as a strong diversion) and tried again later.
Palpatine did lose some battles afterall, or was taken suprise by unseen actions (Padme going back to Naboo for instance).
To sum up: It probably would've been a military defeat either way, but if Palpatine killed Luke, he, Vader, and the Empire would've lived on. And without the Sith going anywhere, the rebellion would've been defeated eventually.
Damn those Skywalkers!

 

While he was a brilliant conspirator and very cunningly crafted his rise to power, these skills do not guarentee his being a perfect leader.
I think the Hitler analogy is most appropriate. In fact, the entire Palpatine story is the story of Palpatine's rise to power. Hitler gained power through legal channels, and then created a crises to become dictator. However, once in control, his need to control everything, and his insanity, led to his demise. The same was with Palpatine.

 

He was killed by the one thing in the galaxy he didn't account for: Anakin overcoming his greatest fear, death, and ending his life to save Luke.

I wouldn't say Anakin's greatest fear was his own death... not at all. If there was one thing Sidious didn't account for in Vader was that he somehow retained an attachment to his family. That somewhere inside he was still capable of love. He didn't forsee that eventually Vader would be willing to die to save his son.

 

He fears death in general so much, why not his own?
*realizes where he's heading*
See you in a few months for more discussion on this matter
*zips lips*

 

lol... how easily I forget the about the spoiled.

Perhaps we're both right.

 

This is where I think Palpatine underestimates the Force. Palpatine feels his power is supreme. He seems to act he can control the Force itself. And this is where I feel it catches up with him. The Force cannot be TOTALLY controlled. It always exists, even when the Dark Side is dominant. And so, no one, not even Palpatine, can foresee the good side returning, even to the most unlikeliest of people, Vader. Of course, Vader had to still accept the will of the Force and make his own decision. I'm not saying that Vader didn't make the decision on his own, I just feel perhaps the Force played a part, however small. Palpatine also didn't realize Luke could counter his own anger and not turn to the Dark Side. I also think the Force played a part in that as well. Just as anger can lead to the Dark Side, I feel faith, hope and love can lead to the Good Side. Luke's faith in himself, Yoda's and OB1's hope in Luke, and Anakin's love for his son, I think, helped the Good Side come back. The Good and Bad always exist, but it always comes down to CHOICE. That's something we must ask ourselves everyday: What choice will I make today?

 

Even regarding Vader and Luke, Palpatine had lost a lot of his better judgement once he became Emperor. He wasn't able to sense that Vader wanted Luke at his side to rule the galaxy whereas the old Palpatine had everything figured out before it happened.

 

The light side of the force blinded his vision

- O_F

 

On a slightly related topic, Hitler would have had a HUGE advantage if he kept bombing the crap out of London. But he didn't and they made him pay.

 

He did a Joe Pesci and got sloppy (which was it, Casino, Goodfellas?)

Meanwhile, Anakin did a Bedazzled (Dudley Moore, Peter Cooke as Palps)

 

Good thread.

Don't forget that the plan was not only to wipe out the Rebellion, but to turn Luke as well.

He has all of Luke's friends on Endor, the Rebel Fleet at the Death Star, and Luke in front of him.

He probably figures, "if I can turn Anakin, who was a full Jedi Knight, I can easily turn this half-trained punk".

And it seems like the Force was no longer with Palpatine.

That line still intrigues me from ROTJ: "Are you certain?"

"I have felt him, my Master."

"Strange that I have not."

 

And then all of a sudden he has a turn and sounds just like Victor Meldrew.

Believe it!

 

I think this is a case of someone's skills being perfect for one thing but not another. Palpatine was tailor made for taking over and bringing down the Jedi.
You need to not just be a master manipulator for that, you also have to be bold. Palp is bold and confident to the nth degree. He took massive risks to succeed but it worked out.
Those strengths became weaknesses once he was in power. As Emperor he needed to be paranoid about the Jedi returning or the Rebellion being successful but he was too confident for that. It was his downfall.

Reminds me of Hannibal. He was perfect for crossing the Alps, storming Italy and winning battles but not for the diplomatic part that was needed to cement victory.

 

I think that, in this case, Palpatine suffers from what I like to call the "serial killer complex." After getting away with dozens and dozens of murders, why do serial killers suddenly start leaving notes and clues towards their whereabouts? They are so good at manipulation that they get bored. They've accomplished their goal and they are no longer having fun with their task.

It would not surprise me to find that Palpatine gambled with his plottings in Return of the Jedi just to keep his dictatorship duties fresh. He had previously manipulated his way to take over the Universe. He simply got bored.




Mace Windy,
too windy for spoilers!

 

Don't Forget,

"Always in motion, is the future"

Old palps probably saw a visionof the future where the rebel fleet is destroyed, and 'young Skywalker' was one of us.