Afterlife in Star Wars

Having read the thread about a possible reunion of Anakin and Padmé after Ep. VI, I'd like to start this topic. In real life, I'm an atheist. It's not very likely that there is something like a soul or an afterlife in which we continue to exist after our physical death. But now I'm talking about the Star Wars Universe, a place with talking Admiral fishes and guys shooting blizzards out of their fingers. In such a universe, an afterlife can exist.

In the above-mentioned discussion, most participants argued that only Force-sensitive beings can exist after their physical deaths, whereas all the other sentient beings "become one with the Force" meaning that they lose their individual characters. But who says that this is the one and only truth? I want to give you my opinion:

There might be an afterlife, the Netherworld of the Force, a different dimension. All sentient live forms have souls and are part of the Force, entering the Netherworld after their deaths. There, they maintain their personalities. Becoming "one with the Force" does not necessarily mean that they lose their individuality. Force-sensitive people are able to "leave" the Netherworld and come back to the world of the living. I personally think that Qui-Gon Jin, f.e., discovered his "Force Ghost" method in the Netherworld, meaning that he must have existed there as a thinking individual being. According to my opinion, Padmé, as all sentient beings, exists in the Netherworld just like the Jedi do, maintaining her personality.

This is, of course, not an undenieable truth but I think that it's not less logic or more unlikely than the different opinion. What do you think?

 

There is an issue in that if you can learn the ability from scratch while in the netherworld, why doesn't every dead Jedi come back?

 

There's always room for alternative religious theories in the GFFA - there are millions of religions, I'm sure. The Force is the only one that is demonstrably true, as far as I know, so while we could theorize all day about a Force heaven of some sort, there's no real evidence for it, so that's all we could do - theorize.

 

Not every Jedi. I didn't make it clear enough: only Jedi may be able to become Force Ghosts but only some of them really succeed, Qui-Gon being the first one.

@ CooperTFN:
Is there no information in the EU about this topic?

 

Here's something from the ROTS script:

 

Not Force heaven specifically, no - because there's never really been an opportunity to present the POV of someone who's already dead. There have been a couple fleeting glimpses of post-death thought processes, but not anything you could draw conclusive information out of. In fact, I think at least a couple death scenes have ended with the "omniscient" narrator declaring something along the lines of "and then he was no more" or "and he never saw anything ever again" - which would definitely be in line with a secular understanding of death.

I had a brief hope in LotF that Lumiya's illusions were regular people actually coming to life as Force ghosts, and that they'd be getting into the notion that the Force was somehow out of whack post-NJO (too balanced, maybe?) and ghosting was just randomly happening of its own volition. Not to be, alas.

 

Coop, how could the Force be too balanced? Haha.

The only story that visually depicts the Netherworld is in Marvel Star Wars #92.

 

Based of some comments about the Force Ghost ability, it seems that one is absorbed by the force upon death, losing all individuality and consciousness.

 

Jedi Ghostbusters would have been awesome!

 

Is it crazy, or is it so sane that I just blew your mind??

 

Here I found an interesting, yet very short article on Wookiepedia: Netherworld of the Force. In the article, the Netherworld appears as a place where deceased sentients, both Force-sensitive and non-sensitive ones, exist after their physical deaths maintaining their individuality and consciousness. But those dead people cannot interact with the living in any way. Only some Jedi who use special techniques can do that.

The Article abouth Force Ghosts, however, is not as clear: Force Ghost. On the one side, you can read that Jedi who become Force Ghosts maintain their individuality, which means that deceased people who do not become Force Ghosts lose their individuality. On the other side, you can read that "learning how to become a Force Ghost" is even possible after "dying a standard death", therefore meaning that you do remain an individual being after death.

To be honest, I don't know which version to prefer. On the one hand, a realistic view on death gives the story much depth. Padmé, f.e., is dead and doesn't exist anymore. Anakin must cope with it whether he likes or dislikes that idea. Even after his own redemption in RoJ, he cannot change the fact that he'll never see her again. On the other hand, everyone, including me, longs for a happy ending and wants his favourite characters to be happy. Anakin seeing Padmé again, Han and Leia not be separated by death, that would be much more relieving and satisfying.

I really would like to have a clear statement by Lucas or any of the EU authors whether there is or isn't an afterlife in the SWU. Unfortunately I won't get one.

 

Maybe not for very long, if Windham is any indication. Also, there is the potential problem that if you could learn to become a Force ghost after death, it stands to reason that dead Jedi from the past would be popping up all the time.

For an approximation of Lucas' position, I would take the Annotated Screenplays material about loss of identity ( with the understanding that this is circumvented by Force ghosting ), together with Yoda's comment in ROTS about transforming into the Force. There is also this Lucas quote: "The act of living generates a force field, an energy. That energy surrounds us; when we die, that energy joins with all the other energy. There is a giant mass of energy in the universe that has a good side and a bad side. We are part of the Force because we generate the power that makes the Force live. When we die, we become part of that Force, so we never really die; we continue as part of the Force."

 

That's a good argument. Yoda, however, states in RotS that Qui-Gon "returned" from the Netherworld of the Force which means that he had been there (whatever it is). But this statement leaves, I admit, a lot of space for speculation and possible interpretation. But so does the phrase "become one with the Force".

Today I watched both RotS and RotJ with Lucas' comments. In RotS he says, like Yoda, that Qui-Gon has discovered a way to return from the Netherworld implicating that he had maintained his individuality there. In RotJ, however, he says that Anaking managed to maintain his identity due to Obi-Wan's and Yoda's help implicating that he wouldn't have maintained it otherwise.

Is this issue explicitely mentioned in those "annotated screenplays"? If so, I'd like to read the particular passages.

Yeah, but what exactly does that say about the consciousness? Anyway, I personally think now that George understands the "afterlife" in a more symbolic way with people losing their individuality. A clear statement would still be very much appreciated.

And: why did Padmé, my favourite character, die whereas Jar-Jar is allowed to live...

Edit: What I also have to ask: is there any EU source where Anakin talks with either Yoda or Obi-Wan or both of them after his death?

 

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, by Ryder Windham.

 

Too confusing for me. Plus it ticks me off. So, what about Anakin Solo in the Pool of Knowledge? He'd been dead for years and he obviously hadn't learned the "staying conscious in the afterlife" trick.

Honestly, if Yoda and Ben could rescue the conscientiousness of souls, you'd think there would be dead Jedi guardians waiting to help all Jedi and all souls for that matter to continue "living". Like, what's Leia going to do when she can retain her mind and Han can't. Han's just gone. And that's the way of the Force? The Force plays such favorites, doesn't it?

 

What's confusing about it, FOTJ aside?

Some people have Jedi potential, some don't. That's just the way things are. I wouldn't call it favoritism.

 

I supose nothing is particularly confusing when you subtracts FOTJ.

Course it's favoritism. Snuffing out a soul who doesn't have Jedi potential just ticks me off. I don't like the idea that Jedi are the only ones that get an afterlife. I've never liked the idea and I never will. It's not fair.

It's as exclusionary to me as many of our own earthly religions.

 

Except it's not the Force playing favorites, it's particular Jedi learning a Force skill of their own volition. Unless you mean the fact that not everyone can be a Jedi is favoritism. But that's just the way the universe is. Some people have more potential than others. There is variation and randomness. Jedi that don't ghost end up the same as everyone else.

Everyone that doesn't ghost arguably gets some kind of afterlife, just without preservation of identity: transforming into the Force. Force ghosting is not really an "afterlife" in the religious sense. It's more like an Arthur C. Clarke type of thing IMO. In a sense they haven't fully died per se, but have maintained consciousness and identity without physical form.

 

I'm utterly subjective about it. It's just not fair that the Jedi actually have to seek out an archaic skill to cheat death. If losing ones identity is the norm for the trillions and trillions of sentient souls that die - If going blank, losing ones accumulated wisdom and memories is the norm I say it's not fair. The Jedi are an ultra rare exception to the rule.

Without identity there is no afterlife to experience, to perceive.

I truly never understood Lucas' approach to the afterlife. There have even been Jedi who were puzzled by the setup. I utterly understand him not wanting reincarnation. That becomes too complicated and screws up characters. But to deny everyone the experience of continuing the journey, save a handful of Jedi and and, oh yeah, Darth kriffing Vader?? Vader gets what no one does??!

The whole Force afterlife needs more explanation than we become mulch for the Force and that's a good thing.

 

I have just read the following quotes:

1) "It was Qui-Gon. Yoda knew it was Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon was dead, had become one with the Force! One could not retain consciouness and sense of self in that state." (AotC novel)
2) "With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness." (RotS novel)
3) "If you choose this path to immortality, then you must listen now, before your consciousness fades." (Rise and Fall of Darth Vader)

So, the thing is clear: Padmé's gone as all people are who do not become Force Ghosts. Very sad. I really would have liked the idea of an afterlife in Star Wars, and George could have done it easily by just saying: yes, there is one. He didn't. That turns the happy ending in RotJ into a tragic one knowing that Yoda, Ben and Anakin exist but all the others, their friends and loved ones, don't.

 

Why is that a negative?

Not all cultures or religions see eternal existence of the self as a good thing. The Star Wars universe would seem to fit fully into that mold. When most people die, they let go and join the Force. Those particularly capable in the Force can maintain their identity to some extent, but it's not the norm and it takes a particular kind of Jedi, a sense of compassion, and the ability to surrender to the Force. It's the villains who keep trying to live forever.

 

The villains want to live forever physically. They don't want to give up life and all of their attachments in the living world.

If I knew a select group of wizards were the only ones able to experience any sense of life after death I'd be peeved. It feels like a caste system. I can only think of the Egyptians and the Pharaohs as an example of something similar to the Jedi and the rest of the folks in the GFFA. They go on about the Dark Siders ending up in "Chaos" but really, what's the difference?

And of course this argument could go one endlessly and does in some form all over the world.

 

I see eternal existence as a good thing, though. So does Manisphere. It's rather frightening and just plain ticks me off that an arbitrary number of midi-chlorians in one's bloodstream determines that.

 

I agree. I don't like the idea of dying and joining the Borg-Force where all traces of who I am is obliterated. I am an individual, if that is lost then I no longer exist. And ceasing to exist is not a good thing for me. Heck if that is the way it works in Star Wars I'd pull a sith and tether myself to this world.

 

There are very few religions that don't see the existence of the self after death as a good, desirable thing. Even the early Greco-Roman system, with its Hades of gibbering shades, sees the death of the personality after death as an evil thing, and its preservation when possible as a good. Even in Hinduism, there are strong strains that have the preservation of the self after death as possible and a good thing (I'm thinking here of the Baghavad Gita, where Krishna promises existence with him to his devotees)--though there are also strains within Hinduism where this isn't possible or desirable. Bhuddism is the main religion that really sees such continuing existence as an actual BAD thing and something to be avoided and despised--though there may be other Eastern religions or philosophies where this is the case as well. I'm not too familiar with, for instance, Taoism.

But Star Wars spirituality is clearly based to a great extent on Bhuddism/Taoism, and that's fine; but even here, it actually has an afterlife gained by special merit (a la Krishnaism)...which certainly complicates things to the point where you can't say that IU surviving after death is a BAD thing, or is not something that is desirable or good. And there are sources that show a basically Judeo-Christian (though much more the modern post-Enlightenment spiritual 'heaven' than the actual ancient Judeo-Christian beliefs about resurrection and the survival of the soul) view of heaven--I'm thinking of a Marvel comic where a bunch of characters meet up in the Netherworld of the Force, still very much alive.

So yeah, I can understand how some people would dislike the modern view of SW afterlife, and want to go back to an earlier EU view of a more modern 'afterlife.' It doesn't bother me a whole lot, though, so long as it's consistently portrayed.