Alternative medicine- Why don't doctors recognize the benefits?

After reading a website and skimming through books on this, why isn't alternative medicine more readily accepted? Certain blends of herbal tea or herbs could be very beneficial to the whole world. I personally believe the story.

In 1977 a large, cancerous growth appeared on the side of Jason's neck. Normal cancer treatments had little effect on the growth and Jason was told to prepare to die.

But Jason didn't give up on life. He turned to the alternative health field and natural remedies. He found special herbs on three different continents that had been used for centuries to combat cancer.

The individual herbs had little effect on Jason, but when he mixed the three herbs together in a tea (known as his Classic Blend Tea) his tumor began to shrink in size. Sir Jason remains in remission today.

EXAMPLE

 

Perhaps interesting, but this concept needs to be broadened out to remain a viable thread. You can certainly use this Jason Winters as an example, but would you have any objections to opening this up to cover alternative medicine in general?

 

So, a cancer shrinks in size because he drank herbal tea ? I honestly don't know where to start on that one.

Possibly the easiest thing to point out is that this guy is selling this magical tea formula, so are you honestly going to believe he's unbiased in his advertising ????????

Pharmaceutical companies are spending billions a year on cancer research in the faint hope of finding a broad-spectrum cure. Believe me, they will have looked at every single reported alternative medicine to see if there is any scientific proof in their observations, and hence a marketable drug.

We pharmaceutical companies don't care where the drug comes from as long as it works. Bottomline is, that the vast majority of these herbal medicines have absolutely no therapeutic effects in the slightest. At best I'll give you the positive effects of taking something you believe might have an effect, but that's it.


In all honesty some century old mixtures do have certain active ingredients, however all of those have been isolated, and are now available in pure, potent and selective forms from your chemist. Everything else, and especially the new wave of herbal nonsense are nothing more than a cheap attempt to get people to buy their crap.

For example, this week's Watchdog (a BBC tv show dealing with consumer affairs), ran an article on Dr & Herbs who were selling a chinese herb mix that they advertised as protecting you from Bird flu, without having a single thread of scientific evidence. (article here).

In conclusion - if any of it actually worked then we (the pharmaceutical industry) would have already taken advantage.

 

I do not buy into alternative medicine treatments as proven and effective therapy for serious diseases.

I've seen a few cases here in the ICU where families were into that sort of thing, and it was to no avail.

 

It is not possible they were idiotic and doing it wrong?

Given, you know, the success of it in China...

E_S

 

It's very simple.

Lack of scientific statistical testing under controlled environments.

There's a lot of stuff coming to light about Chinese herbal medicine and various other forms of healing that may prove very beneficial to our health. But in today's litigious society, no Dr with a promising career is going to risk something that not tried and proven.

Looking at it from a consumer's or patient's point of view, we have a lot of information and not many ways to prove their authenticity. I'd be hesitant to dabble in any of it unless of course the result was to die anyway.

 

Herbs Do Not Cure Illness

"I do not believe that the herbs cure any illness. I believe that they merely purify the blood and help the body get strong enough to heal itself."

- Sir Jason Winters

"The first and foremost ingredient is, ofcourse, chaparral. Well over a decade ago, this remarkable shrub captured the attention of the medical world for its extraordinary ability to cause tumor regression in some (but not all) forms of cancer. One could easily make claims for the Jason Winters formula in the cure for cancer. I'm sure that there are those who would be willing to testify under oath that Jason Winters' herbal tea has indeed cured them of one of Nature's most ravaging diseases. But, if you're like me, then you prefer that which is closer to reality. That's why I feel comfortable with the words 'arrest' and 'properly manage' when describing the effects which Jason Winters' herbal tea can have on various kinds of cancer. After all, if it worked for Jason, then why shouldn't it work for someone else too?


- The Story of Jason Winters

I don't think it's a scam or anything, he's not promising anyone will be healed right off the bat. I think there is a reason he's won all of these awards....True or false, I still think it's an interesting story and makes me question how powerful herbs may be.

 

I believe that they merely purify the blood and help the body get strong enough to heal itself.

The problem with cancer (and the main reason that we have trouble creating anti-cancer drugs), is that a tumour biologically speaking is identical to normal human tissue. The single difference between a cancerous tissue, and a normal tissue is that the cells in the cancerous tissue continue to grow and divide after they are supposed to have stopped (hence you get lumps etc).

We don't really know specifically which signals trigger this change from normal to cancerous, or the specific proteins/enzymes/growth factors that are involved in stopping and starting the cell cycle (and hence control growth and division). We know a lot about which ones are involved, but not which ones are different between normal and cancerous tissues. (There was a big thing about a factor called P45 a few years back, but nothing has come of it).

So, really what I'm saying is that the human body is incapable of fighting cancer, as it can't separate normal cells from cancer cells - so, no matter how heathly your blood is, that really won't have any effect in cancer, and especially won't reduce tumour size.

 

There's a book out called "Hundred of cures they don't want you to know about." The methods described therein are borderline quackery, and the man promoting them has been convicted of fraud in other schemes he tried to sell. If that's the face of alternative medicine, no wonder it doesn't receive much credibility.

EDIT: Kevin Trudeau is his name. Here's his rap sheet.

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/FTCActions/trudeau.html
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau

They even did an expose on him on, of all things, The Daily Show.

 

Ok, I've done a little research on active ingredient in chinese tea formulations.

First study:-

Navarro-Perán et al., (2005) The Antifolate Activity of Tea Catechins Cancer Research, 65, p2059-2064 (available here)

Navarro-Perán reported that the active ingredient in green tea leaves [(?)-epigallocatechin gallate] was shown to be an inhibitor of dihydrofolate reductase, the same enzyme targeted by methotrexate and aminopterine which are both anti-cancer drugs. Furthermore, (?)-epigallocatechin gallate is structurally similar to both methotrexate and aminopterine, suggesting to me that this really isn't 'alternative therapy', just a different way to get the same drug.

I still however, have absolutely no belief that the guy that you've linked to in the opening post ever drank tea and have his tumour disappear - that's medically impossible.

Second study :-

Schmidt & Ernst - Assessing complementary and alternative medicine for cancer (2004) Annals of Oncology, 15, 733-742 (available here)

Concluded :-

---

Shark cartilage has also been frequently recommended as a ?cancer cure?......there is insufficient evidence for shark cartilage to be used as a cancer treatment and the only published clinical study of shark cartilage for cancer failed to produce encouraging results.[hr][/blockquote]

[blockquote][hr]Laetrile....contains the toxic compound amygdalin......Clinical trials and animal studies have found no relevant benefit for cancer patients[hr][/blockquote]

[blockquote][hr]The Gerson?s diet.....is also not supported by convincing evidence. [hr][/blockquote]

[blockquote][hr]mistletoe ......found no good evidence for an effect of this therapy on cancer progression or quality of life[hr][/blockquote]

[blockquote][hr]no clear link between ß-carotene and the prevention of cancer has so far been shown.[hr][/blockquote]

To to conclude, anything that is therapeutic in any herbal medicine has already been purifed and perfected by chemists. Anything else simply doesn't work. Furthermore, herbal medicines are dangerous in that they are largely unregulated, full of non-specific components and are very difficult to control dose with.

I'll stick with what I get from the chemist thanks.

 

How do you know that any-thing that is therapeutic in any herbal medicine has already been discovered?

I don't disagree with you in principle about herbal medicines being ineffective. I think it's BS. But is your faith that the pharmaceutical industry has indeed looked at everything substantiated?

 

Without getting technical, and to add to malkie's thoughts, physicians practice what is known as "evidence-based medicine". This is exactly what it sounds like: we do studies, we gather evidence, we design treatments based on this.

It's how we know when to start a beta-blocker after a heart attack, or how to do surgery, etc.

Simply put, there is just no "evidence" behind a lot of these so-called "herbal cures". While some research has been done in this area, it is fairly "soft" and has not resulted in any significant developments in the medical community.

Drug research is a slow, meticulous process, and I highly doubt any claim that touts a "natural" rememdy as a bona-fide cure.

You have to be careful with this stuff.

Peace,

V-03

 

When we run a screen against a target of interest we screen over 100,000 individual compounds from every chemical structure you could possibly imagine. Medical Chemistry then take the 'hit' compounds from the screen and work their magic to ensure potency, selectivity, and a good metabolism by the body.

Believe me, *everything* gets screened from every sort of possible source.

 

I think herbal medicine is like chicken noodle soup. It's not hugely effective, but you think it is, and the positive attitude makes you feel better. Your immune system may even get a slight boost from the optimism, but that's about it.

 

V nailed it, pretty much.

Malkie, although I agree, I have to say you see mot be overstating your case here. By the simple fact that pharmacuetical innovation continues, it can be concluded that everything has not yet been discovered. No one in the thread is doubting the rigor that goes into producing medicines, but to argue for such absoluet knowledge in any field seems unwarranted.

 

that's not exactly what I'm saying.

Not *everything* is known about *everything*, otherwise we'd have cures for cancer, HIV and death itself (and I'd be out of a job).

All I'm really saying is that anything that's been reported to have some therapeutic effect (ie all of chinese medicine, native american medicine etc etc) has been fully tested, extracted, purified and studied.

The thing you have to understand is that we're in a business with few morals over where it finds new medicines - we're more than happy to take a 1,000 year old chinese herb mix (which really works), isolated the active ingredients and market a new drug.

I stand by my point - if there is any actual therapeutic effect of an altnerative medicine we've already taken advantage of it. What's left is the crap that doesn't work.

 

if any of it actually worked then we (the pharmaceutical industry) would have already taken advantage.

I don't know if I should be more shocked that Malkie works for the "evil" pharmaceutical industry or that I actually argree with him.

Edit: I always get a crack out of the "Hundred of cures they don't want you to know about" infomecials on late at night. That guy just looks like a shifty used car salesman.

 

I always get a kick out of how they emphasize that everything is "all natural." Well, so what? Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's good. Snake venom, poison ivy and nightshade are all natural but that doesn't mean I'm going to be ingesting them any time soon.

 

I do not buy into alternative medicine treatments as proven and effective therapy for serious diseases.


You have to admit that the monstrous pharmaceutical entity in this country has at the very least a tiny part to play in that conception that your relaying, which is shared by most of the country. I agree with Bill Maher on this one - that the real axis of evil thats hurting our country is the FDA, pharmaceutical corporations, and subsidizing unnecessary agriculture like corn. Its the food we consume and the way we consume it that we should be paying attention to.

 

Simply put, doctors don't recognize the benefits of alternative therapies because it would cut into their business, particularly in America, where you have to go to a doctor to get pretty much anything.

Also, alternative medicine generally works best when people are educated - not college education (though that doesn't hurt) but on how the therapies work, how to know what their bodies need, etc.

Some alternative therapies are useless bunk, or of limited application, and some conditions do respond better to drugs. But there is no incentive for a doctor to promote anything other than drug therapy or other treatment that requires more trips to medical professionals. It's a money machine. Why would s/he tell you to go to the store and spend $5 on a box of special herb tea when s/he can prescribe a $100 drug, get a kickback, and ensure that next time the problem happens you'll be back in hir office instead of buying more tea?

I went through 5 different medications for a chemical imbalance - four useless, one minimally effective - before telling the doctors to take a hike and tried a herbal tincture instead. Not a cure, but manages the symptoms about as well as the best of the five medications, and costs me eight dollars every two months. No prescription. Of course I'm going to do that... but naturally, against medical advice, because that doesn't earn money for anybody but Gaia Herbs and the people over at the health food store.

It required a little research, though. Also, herb therapies generally don't work as quickly as drugs and people have a desire to get better quicker, so there's a market for drugs. Non-allopathic medicine is something that, at present, people have to research on their own or seek out trusted professionals in that particular field for, because regular doctors aren't going to say anything in most cases. It's about money, at the root. Insurance companies are also to blame because they often won't cover alternative medicine, even if it's proven effective or has shown to cure/treat a particular individual.

 

Some herbal remedies are just common sense. Willow bark tea, for example, contains the main ingredient that's found in aspirin. An aloe plant for burns-my grandmother had one when I was little and my cousins and I used to like to pinch off the little tips.

But some people assume that these things are safe because they're natural-and in many cases, they're anything but.

And don't even get me started on the stupidity that is homeopathy. The water "remembers" the substance? The more you dilute it, the stronger it gets? Please. If that's the case, then the best cure of all would be nothing!

 

Alison-

Um, I wouldn't go throwing around accusations of clinical favoritism towards particular medications. Having been on the medical faculty, and having had to deal with a number of drug reps, there are a few problems with your position:

(1) Prescribing a medication that provides a 'kickback' constitutes a conflict of interest, and can cause you to lose your license.

(2) Many hospitals allow drug reps to come in and present new medications, but many staff simply see them as a free lunch, and do not harbor any special inclination to start using their medications as a result.

(3) The formularies of hospitals are not set by the individual clinicians. There is heavy influence by insurance companies and hospital committees.

(4) Managed care rules physician's salaries. If you think doctors make a lot of money, you are only looking at the dermatologists in private practice. Medical malpractice insurance sucks away so much of a physician's income that many have no choice but to take on hospital positions, which cover malpractice insurance costs. As a result, the clinicians are tied into the hospital's formulary, and not simply whatever they choose.

Regarding alternative therapies:

The bottom line is that there is little to no testing involved, which is bad, considering 'alternative' therapies like herbs also alter biochemistry. Since there have been no tests, it is not clear what interactions would result from using both FDA-approved medications and non-regulated alternatives. Further, some of the claims made by 'natural' therapies are simply false. A fun one from my clinical rotations was the claim that shark cartilege prevented cancer, since "sharks don't get cancer". This claim turns out to be false - sharks can get neoplastic disorders, too. Some of the 'alternative therapies' produced fun things like internal bleeding, too. Internal hemorrhaging is a bad thing in clinical practice.

Further, many physicians *do* recommend adjuvant therapies when there is *demonstrable* benefit (e.g., yoga and meditation as means of controlling blood pressure). Medicine simply adopts a more empirical (i.e., scientific, instead of anecdotal) philosophy when it comes to complementary and alternative therapies.

 

Please. If that's the case, then the best cure of all would be nothing!


In the proper context, and in many scenarios regardless, thats actually a tremendous truth.

 

I beg to differ. Infectious disease. Trauma. Appendicitis and/or internal hemorrhaging. Preventive care. Etc., etc.

 

Yip, I tell that to my diabetic friends all the time (just as they slip into a coma).





AlisonC - any chance you could back up any of your assertions with some sort of evidence ? What you've posted reads like the propaganda you'd read on a herbal medicines website.



alternative medicine generally works best when people are educated

Surely medicines should "work" despite people knowing how or why they work? Presumably the guy behind the counter in the medicines shop would know which one to give you when you tell him what your symptoms are. Furthermore, what you are suggesting is that if you are pre-educated then alternative medicines work better, ie that you are creating a false placebo effect.

Also, herb therapies generally don't work as quickly as drugs

What's your scientific basis for that assertion ?

Also, can you tell me specifically which alternative medicine you used, and what it was for so I can do a little research into the consitutents of that remedy.


It's about money, at the root.

It is about money, but not in the way you think. The pharmaceutical companies investigate everything to give the doctors drugs that actually work. Some of todays current drugs are isolated active ingredients in 1,000 year old herbal mixes.

My point (which you ignore) is that we've been through every single possible alternative medicine looking for a scientific basis, then take advantage of it. The ones that are left on the shelves are the ones that don't work.

Please re-read my post above which deals with the biggest anti-cancer alternative medicines, and which shows that none of them are worth anything at all.


So please, can you provide us with some evidence rather than just promoting your opinion as fact.

Thanks.