An Ever Growing Problem: The Lack of Respect for Darth Vader

Since the PT came out, I have noticed that fans regard Vader as a weak and beaten man. Before the PT, he was considered powerful and evil. Now, he seems to be nothing more than a average Sith Lord by the average fan. I think this is problem. It was never Lucas's intention to present Darth Vader as a weak character. I think the fans are wrong to think this. In the OT he is the face of the Empire and very powerful. With no limbs or lung, this man studied the dark side of the Force and became 80% as powerful as the Emperor by RotJ. He owned Luke Skywalker on Bespin and resfused to tap into the dark side against him in RotJ. He is one of the greatest Sith Lords ever. Though he had the potential to be even greater, fans forget that he was nearly on par with Palpatine. I could never understand the perspective that Vader was weak. Either Lucas blew it presenting Vader's story or fans are just bitter, I don't understand how anyone could consider Vader anything less than amazing.

 

It's because people pay too much attention to fight choreography and to enough not the actual story at hand. Darth Vader is much more powerful by the time of the OT than he was in the PT.

 

True, but Lucas makes it very clear that Vader's power could have been much greater if he was not injured at Mustafar.

I agree that Lucas's portrayal of Vader in the PT does present him as weaker, but that is because we explore his childhood and his emotional side. In the OT we know nothing of his history so there is nothing to judge him by but his present actions. By exploring any powerful person's emotions and childhood you will find that they are not as strong as you first thought.

 

The real-world answer is a combination of the way the story was written for the PT and the choice of actor to portray Vader. Hayden didn't do it for me. He had to convince moviegoers that he WAS Darth Vader. In my opinion, something got lost in translation. I don't "see" Anakin (Hayden) behind the mask when I see Darth Vader. Not bashing here, just stating my honest views on this.

 

Rolling Stone Magazine May 19, 2005
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/the_cult_of_darth_vader

 

The main point from that:

He's not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan's cigarettes.

You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that

 

I don't think Lucas ever comments on how strong the Force is with Vader in the OT. I personally, do not think Lucas should be talking about Star Wars because he screws everything up, like when he said that the reason the ANH Vader/Kenobi duel is so pathetic is because Vader is in the suit and Kenobi is old. Then he see Dooku back flipping and twirling around in the PT. The way he continues to defend ANH is surprising to say the least. I think Vader doesn't look at all powerful compared to TESB Vader. ANH isn't part of his true vision and yet he continues to explain everything in movie happened for a reason, when he should be saying I had crappy technology to work with and I didn't have the whole saga storyline worked out yet. But he doesn't and it's a joke really. I've been calling to decanonize ANH for a long time. But Lucas would never go against what happened the OT because he doesn't want remake it or admit flaws. But getting back on point, Vader is a little bit overshadowed by Palpatine and to serve a guy that powerful, and become 80% as powerful as him was impressive.

What does this bring to the discussion? What seems to an on going problem that fans are comparing Vader's power to Palpatine's. What about Vader's power in his own right? Vader was powerful as hell in the OT but Palpatine was the greatest Sith Lord of all time. It's ok to say Vader is powerful without implying that he surpassed Palpatine in some way.

 

That's what he does say. He says the first Vader suit was too restrictive, plus the fact that David Prowse did the fighting and not a stuntman. He came to use the old man v burned cyborg excuse to give the fans an in-universe reason why that fight sucks.

You think Vader isn't respected? Ask anyone, especially the casual fans, to name the villian in the Star Wars saga and the majority will say Vader. My point was that Lucas compared crippled Vader to Dooku and Maul and you can't argue that they weren't powerful.

 

There was a stuntman who did some of the fighting for Prowse.

Lucas once stated that Vader was 80% of what Palpatine was.

I think the negative opinion of Vader started with a comment that Lucas made about wanting to show the Jedi in their prime instead of a cripple in a suit versus a half trained boy.

Throw all that in with Maul jumping around and taking on two Jedi and many people started thinking Vader was nt all that tough.

What it all means to me is that Vader was the second most powerful being in the galaxy. I'd say that's pretty touhg for a "flunky".

 

Bob Anderson doubled for Prowse in ESB and ROTJ. Prowse did the fighting himself in ANH. You can see the difference because Vader pivots on his feet in ANH, but not in the others. He was replaced because he kept breaking the dummy lightsabers (it should be noted Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen did the same when rehearsing the "Battle of the Heroes").

 

Lucas made Star Wars, so to me he would know a bit more about it than some random guy who thinks Lucas has no idea what he's doing.

 

What people often forget is that the Jedi throughout the six movies fight to apprehend the Sith, with the exception of Mace Windu-Palapatine. It's not necessarily that the jedi were not as powerful, the tactics are different trying to capture someone versus kill them.

Vader was not as powerful as he should have been, and it was his own fault. The Jedi would not have slowed his progress had he learned the lessons they were teaching him.

 

Not true.
Ep1 Qui Gon vs Maul on Tatooine: Qui Gon was fighting until he could get away.
Ep4 Obi vs Vaber: Obi was dueling and decided to sacrifice himself so that Luke and co. could escape
Ep5 Luke would have killed Vader if he could
EP6 Luke was fighting to try to redeem his father


I could list the rest but I don't feel like it. The only times where the Jedi were trying to make an attempt to apprehend a Sith is the Duel of the Fates, The Dooku duels in AOTC, and Mace's Posse vs Palps before he made short work of all them of them except Mace. After that Mace decided to go for the kill.

 

That's because in the beginning he was Mr. BadA---. Then in the end, during the prequels, he was a winy little brat...

 

Watch the Saga with commentary on; if you still don't understand why Vader doesn't deserve respect, you probbly never will.
It's the same issue with Boba Fett, both he and Vader give off waves of baddassery, but it's entirely superficial: evil-looking armor, deep and growly voices, tough talk...but their actions don't bear that image out.

 

What people often forget is that the Jedi throughout the six movies fight to apprehend the Sith, with the exception of Mace Windu-Palapatine.


I think that you need to watch the PT again.

*Qui-Gon fought Darth Maul on Tatooine out of sheer self-preservation.

*I don't recall Yoda or Mace ordering Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to arrest Maul if they ever encounter him again on Naboo. In fact, both Jedi Master and padawan set out to kill Maul, the moment they had confronted him.

*There is no confirmation that Obi-Wan and Anakin were ordered to "arrest" Dooku on Geonosis.

*Nor is there any confirmation that Obi-Wan and Anakin were ordered to "arrest" Dooku on Grievous' ship in ROTS. The only matter that we know is that they were there to rescue Palpatine.

*Mace Windu is THE ONLY ONE who had set out to apprehend Palpatine in ROTS. In fact, he tried to convince the Sith Lord to surrender at least twice, before he set out to kill the latter.

*I don't recall Yoda having any intention of apprehending Palpatine in their showdown. When did he state that he was planning to do such a thing? I don't recall him demanding that Palpatine surrender.


As for this "lack of respect" for Vader, GL didn't mess up the character. I believe that many fans simply did not care for the growing complexity of Anakin/Vader. I think they wanted to preserve the "icon of evil" image that he had project in ANH. Lucas claimed that he had no intention of Vader remaining as such a character and he set out to prove this, starting with the end of ESB

 

I found a quote to sum this up:

"Curse you, Skywalkers, both of you! I'll tell you the truth about your father! The great Darth Vader was a sick man in an iron mask! Yes, that mask inspired terror throughout the Galaxy!" ? Palpatine to Luke Skywalker

"If we catch Dooku we could end this war today." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

Though you're right in the other cases. It irks me that the Jedi believe in justifed murder, despite all Ben and Yoda's warnings about needless agression. Especially since the galaxy was saved because Luke refused to kill Vader when he had the chance. Maybe that's what Lucas meant by the Jedi being corrupted.

 

If Obi-Wan and Anakin were simply meant to apprehend Dooku on Geonosis, why did Anakin order a clone trooper to shoot down Dooku - and act that could have resulted in the Sith apprentice's death? And why didn't Obi-Wan say anything?

 

It irks me that the Jedi believe in justifed murder

I think the term is called justifiable homicide. Murder is a bit of a strong term for what the Jedi do imo. It doesn't bother me that they kill when necessary. The Jedi aren't pacifists.

 

It's not justifed murder. Not any more than killing someone in a war is.

However, what Anakin did to Dooku was murder. And what Mace Windu intended to do with Sidious would have been murder too. But those are exceptions.

Btw, those anyone think this threads's getting kinda derailed?

 

Hell, when you think about it, a sociopath mass-murderer could be a Jedi without turning to the Dark Side. The path to the Dark Side is emotion and passion; a dispassionate Force-user who kills indiscriminantly with no emotion whatsoever is technically a Jedi...or least is technically on the light side.

So as long as the Jedi kill without anger or passion, they're fine. And while I dislike violence personally, I recognize that there are times when it's necessary. So do the Jedi.

 

*raises hand*

 

However, what Anakin did to Dooku was murder. And what Mace Windu intended to do with Sidious would have been murder too. But those are exceptions.

Once again, Mace Windu is singled out for attempting to kill Palpatine, whereas Yoda always seemed to escape judgement from the fans. Why? At least Mace tried to arrest Palpatine twice. Yoda did not even bother. He went to Palpatine's office to kill the latter. Yet, he escapes criticism for this action.

 

Perhaps I wasn't too clear. We need to get back on topic. None of this has to do with the topic, or even the CT.

 

Butt Edit: Off topic. I'm serious guys.