Anakin Skywalker - "I'm not the Jedi I should be": Destiny, dilemma or fallen hero?

"The separateness apparent in the world is secondary, beyond that world of opposites is an unseen, but experienced, unity and identity in us all." - Joseph Campbell, A Hero with a thousand faces

In my opinion, Anakin recognises that his role transcends both Jedi and Sith and makes this notion a reality. He brings balance and a complete metaphysical shift to the Force itself. He does this by going beyond the dualities of the Force, and in effect shatters them. All the cosmic tumblers clicked into place, and the light and the dark, at least for that moment, were no more. The Sith are dead. The force is no longer manipulated by the darkness.

My question is, did he on some level, always know that this would be his calling?

In ROTS, this exchange takes place between Anakin Skywalker and Palpatine:

PALPATINE: The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power.

ANAKIN: The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves.

PALPATINE: And the Jedi don't?

ANAKIN: The Jedi are selfless . . . they only care about others.

Here, Anakin refers to both sides as 'The Sith and 'The Jedi', not including his own position in the discussion. He distances himself from the mind-sets of each side. For instance, shouldn't he really be saying:

"The Sith rely on their passions...We (or I) are selfless, we only care about others".

Does this reflect two things; that Anakin knows he is different to the Jedi; that he has an understanding that his destiny lies outside of the Jedi Order?

We know that he is doubting his role as a Jedi - "I'm not the Jedi I should be".

Is this a for-sight into Anakin's true destiny - that he must go beyond the realms of being a Jedi to bring balance? Thus, when he makes the choice in ROTJ to save Luke, is this more than instinct to save his son? Does he finally discover his role in the "complex cosmic construction"?

If this destined calling always existed for Anakin, does it explain his distance with the Jedi Council and them with him? Does it explain why his fate was always clouded? Does it suggest that he could never be a Jedi Master?

So was Anakin destined to rise above Jedi and Sith, were his feelings a mere personal dilemma that he had to deal with or was he just a fallen hero who could have achieved so much as a Jedi but became too greedy?

Thoughts?

[image=http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/IMTHEGENERAL/vaderandani.jpg]

 

Bingo

As George says, Anakin chooses to reject his destiny in RotS - he could've been 'The Jedi he should be'. That's the tragedy. The end of RotJ is nothing more then him becoming the good person he used to be in the prequels, the good person he turned his back on. He's not above the Jedi/Sith. He stands beside Yoda and Ben in the typical Jedi robes instead of his cool leather outfit.

The tragedy isn't that he was doomed to a life of suffering and misery - the tragedy is that he could've avoided that.

- O_F

 

Bingo

As George says, Anakin chooses to reject his destiny in RotS - he could've been 'The Jedi he should be'. That's the tragedy. The end of RotJ is nothing more then him becoming the good person he used to be in the prequels, the good person he turned his back on. He's not above the Jedi/Sith. He stands beside Yoda and Ben in the typical Jedi robes instead of his cool leather outfit.

The tragedy isn't that he was doomed to a life of suffering and misery - the tragedy is that he could've avoided that.

I agree with that. Good points. I guess what i'm really asking though is what Anakin believes, what he knows about himself and what happens to him in ROTJ.

In ROTJ im not saying he was above the jedi in the sense of greatness. But I meant that he went beyond them in his action. He did what no ther Jedi could do - thats why he is the chosen one. He was destined to to what no other Jedi could do. At the moment of balance, everything is in place - and thats down to Anakin. he has brought a balance between everything. He was both Vader and Anakin when he destroyed Sidious. But it went beyond anything a Sith could do or a Jedi could do.

This position was always evident in Anakins life. He was always an outcast to the Jedi. There was always elements od mistrust. He knew that he wasnt the Jedi he should be and as I pointed out, sometimes spoke of the jedi as being seperate to him.

As a Sith he always had good in him and therefore wasn't a sith through and through and ended up doing what a Sith couldn't do.

Basically, Anakin was always out of place. He wasn't the Jedi or Sith he should be. In order to find his place and calling he had to go beyond both to bring balance.

It foes back to his origins. He was brought up on tatooine. Why? There must have been a reason, whether he was created by Sith or the force.

Therefore he wasn't ever going to be like the other Jedi or Sith. He was always going to have something different about him. These differences prevented him from being the Jedi he should be yet also stopped him from being the Sith he could have been. In the end, he went above those differences and faced his destiny.

 

Good thoughts, as always, Shaitan.

Well, I think he certainly felt he was different and he didn't fit into the PT Jedi order. However, I don't think he related that to him being the "chosen one". As the great Lard Biscuit has pointed out, Anakin almost never talked about the Force, apart from the catchword "may the Force be with you." LB compared him to "a priest that never mentions God."

Anakin's not much of a philosophical thinker, he's a craftsman - a practical type of person, more of a technical intelligence. He knew he was somehow different, but I don't think he gave much thought as to the hows and whys.

If anything it was a subconscious thing. I think he was destined to rise above both Jedi and Sith - as did Luke in the end - but I don't think he was consciously aware of it.

 

Thankyou Mandy,

I agree also with your point. I always got the impression Anakin wasnt to keen on 'The Chosen One' tag. It probably made him feel that he wasn't in control of his own destiny and that he was being used.

 

Of course he wouldn't want his life to be controlled by a prophecy. He was brought up as a slave. The last think he would want is replacing his life as a slave to Watto with a life as a slave to a prophecy. I think the idea of taking his life into his own hands was something that attracted him to the ways of the Sith. Of course, taking his life into his own hand is something which he never accomplished because he simply lacked the courage to take the responsibility.

 

And he ended up being just like the Jedi, I understand what you're getting at and you're right. But I don't think it was destiny. It was more a failure on his and the Jedi's account that he never fit in with them, it wasn't something that was natural or was always supposed to happen.

As for the chosen one tag - "I never asked for this!"

Even though we never see him address it, i think that's basically his mentality towards it - based on his characteristics. And he's right. All he wanted to be was a Jedi, he never asked to have abilities beyond any of them or have the entire Order expecting him to destroy some faceless Sith. It goes hand in hand with destiny, nobody likes to think they don't have a say in the matter - with Anakin, it's taken to the extreme with the prophecy.

- O_F

 

whoah, a new interesting thread!

*puts on thinking cap*

i believe that it puzzled him that he felt this way about himself. i mean the order made him feel like he didn't belong anyway, so assuming a more neutral role is the next step, i guess.

i always had the feeling that when he says 'i'm not the jedi that i should be' he feels really uncomfortable about it. i mean, he is the biggest antenna to the force there is and he has the strongest connection and all, and i would guess he feels there is more out there.

anyway, i sure think that it was his destiny to bring the force into balance... of course... and achieve this through using both feelings and rationale. unfortunately it seems he is the wrong person to do this. it feels really weird writing this, but i do think someone else should have had this job.

i think it would have been practically impossible to have it another way with this constellation of people. the jedi simply assume what they do is right, they are dogmatic, anakin has no way of knowing what his job proper is, apart from destroying the sith which is only half the story. the force is beyond human capabilities, it's cosmic and darkness and light are categories the users apply, not the force itself.

 

O_F -I'm referring to the exact point where Anakin/Vader brings balance. I think GL was pointing towards something when he said (something like) Anakin, and Vader, destroyed Sidious and brought balance.

It was a duality thing which the chosen one transcended and brought balance to everything.


whoah, a new interesting thread!

Well im glad you think so Miss frared.

*puts on thinking cap*

i believe that it puzzled him that he felt this way about himself. i mean the order made him feel like he didn't belong anyway, so assuming a more neutral role is the next step, i guess.

Good point. I think we would all question are place in the world.

i always had the feeling that when he says 'i'm not the jedi that i should be' he feels really uncomfortable about it. i mean, he is the biggest antenna to the force there is and he has the strongest connection and all, and i would guess he feels there is more out there.

At face value its him being honest -that he is greedy. But I think it goes deeper - it reflects his destiny and his role on the universe.

anyway, i sure think that it was his destiny to bring the force into balance... of course... and achieve this through using both feelings and rationale. unfortunately it seems he is the wrong person to do this. it feels really weird writing this, but i do think someone else should have had this job.

I have to disagree with that although it pains me too.

I think Anakin was perfect. he didnt have to turn to the sith. he didnt have to be evil. But he did have to be different.

 

*grabs the mike*

I think we would all question are place in the world.

my problem as a would-be anthropologist here is that he is at a stage in his life at which he would question these things anyway. i always think that it's pure genius of GL to have him be so young anyway. it's not just for the ladeez!

At face value its him being honest -that he is greedy. But I think it goes deeper - it reflects his destiny and his role on the universe.

why would he lie to her? yes. and he's an honest person anyway.
i have trouble with the greed. why's what he wants greedy? is this mere terminology? how long are you supposed to wait until you become a master? how long are you supposed to wait until you have access to things?

I have to disagree with that although it pains me too.

*polishes her blade*

I think Anakin was perfect. he didnt have to turn to the sith. he didnt have to be evil. But he did have to be different.

okay. i think we mean the same... sort of.
that is assuming there was a way to be different in the order? and i don't see that happening. they make no room for him, so he can either leave or just resign himself to their stagnancy.
i think being evil is not what i mean anyway, more osrt of exploring the dark side. the feeling side of him. what lies beneath... hatred, anger, fear, much of which isn't explored with the jedi, which is why he's different even without having started.
so, maybe we have run into a problem of logic.

*dances out*

 

Your signature is hilarious Master_Shaitan.

Interesting thread. It made my head hurt.

 

Your signature is hilarious Master_Shaitan.

Interesting thread. It made my head hurt.

Funny...but unfortunately true!

In terms of the thread, I think the quote i posted, more than anything, is an example of how Anakin feels - exluded from the Jedi etc.

But I also think its an insight into what evetually happens - Anakin/Vader is neither Jedi or Sith but brings balance. He joins his Jedi friends in the end, but he wasnt when he actually destroyed Sidious. For me, he transceded jedi and sith.

 

I hate to disgree with you, you know that, Shaitan, but I think Luke was the one who transcended Jedi and Sith. Anakin was the one who paved the way...

 

so they make the chosen ones together?

 

I always thought the whole point of Anakin was that he was different. That he was supposed to be the "wind of change" in the Jedi Order. I can really feel for Ani because so much was expected of him. The Force conceived him for a special purpose. Let's face it, I hope I don't offend any Christians, but he is a Messiah like figure. Virgin birth and all. But I also believe that he must have been given gifts equal to his purpose.

But soo many things went wrong. If you watch the whole PT you can click them off. Oh no, Obi wasn't meant to train Ani. Oh no, Palps wasn't meant to have free access to him. Oh no, Mace, listen to Obi - he knows what he's talking about. Oh no, Yoda, the Jedi aren't supposed to be fighting that stupid war. Oh no, Padme don't brush it off, don't sacrifice your integrity. Oh no, Ani - tell him - tell them, be honest, speak up, you know right from wrong, stick to your guns!!

Let's imagine a PT w/ no OT. With a happy ending. Ani fulfills his purpose. He destroys the Sith but he also gets his special needs met in the Jedi Order. He opens the door for training older kids. For allowing more marriage if it's absolutely necessary to that Jedi's well-being. He learns to love selflessly while he can still enjoy it. Ahhh, it could have all been so different.

 

Freakin' eh that's a great post!

 

I agree totally , but less compassionate people are going to say that Anakin was simply Greedy and lacked Control and Patience. i think it's both. but you are dead on. there were errors all along the way. and they were not Anakin's exclusively.

 

I agree Jedi Momma. I think the Jedi Order needed to adapt in many ways.

Its core beliefs were correct - attachment and possessiveness was dangerous and wrong. But family connections and relationships weren't necessarily paths to attachments or the dark side.

Luke proved that you can let go of attachments, be selfless and still have a family - Leia.

I feel Anakin however went beyond everything. he had to. he had to be above everything and see everything to bring balance to it. It essence, he became the force itself, trancending all and balancing it.

 

I hate to disgree with you, you know that, Shaitan, but I think Luke was the one who transcended Jedi and Sith. Anakin was the one who paved the way...

I value your opinions highly Mandy, I welcome your view.

But I must say that i dont think its Luke that transcended the jedi and sith. I see it as the opposite to what you said. I think Luke paved the way. He taught Vader compassion. That was the ingredient Anakin/Vader needed to break free and rise above everything to bring balance.

Luke changed things. His actions would create a new Jedi Order. But Luke was a Jedi through and through. Anakin, IMO, went beyond that. Anakin was the Force.

 

Gl said that anakin is the victim, not the villian

lol i think that may have been off topic..but its something to think about

 

I don't think Luke was a Jedi through and through according to PT Jedi standards. If Luke was trained according to those standards he would've encountered similar difficulties as Anakin.
Anakin never acted consciously, he pretty much stumpled his way through the events. Luke was the one who acted consciously.

 

But I must say that i dont think its Luke that transcended the jedi and sith. I see it as the opposite to what you said. I think Luke paved the way. He taught Vader compassion. That was the ingredient Anakin/Vader needed to break free and rise above everything to bring balance.

Luke changed things. His actions would create a new Jedi Order. But Luke was a Jedi through and through. Anakin, IMO, went beyond that. Anakin was the Force.


so luke worked so anakin could fulfil his destiny? so, is luke part of what he had to do? so, having a son who could in the end show him the path which he was otherwise unable to see?

 

I don't think Luke was a Jedi through and through according to PT Jedi standards.

Agreed. But he was in terms of OT standards.

If Luke was trained according to those standards he would've encountered similar difficulties as Anakin.

Yup.

Anakin never acted consciously, he pretty much stumpled his way through the events. Luke was the one who acted consciously.

Exactly. Luke did act inuitively throughout the OT until the end, where he processes all that info and makes the rational choice - throw down his saber and refuse to kill.

 

so luke worked so anakin could fulfil his destiny? so, is luke part of what he had to do? so, having a son who could in the end show him the path which he was otherwise unable to see?

It wasnt always designed that way. Anakin wasnt destined to fall.

But Luke found his calling in ROTJ - it was to be a jedi and turn his father. Act rationally and throw down his saber.

This enabled Anakin to fulfiill the prophecy. Only Luke could turn Vader.

It [SW] will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act - when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this" - that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.
- Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99

 

In the opera scene, I took Anakins choice of phrase to indicate that while he knows the Jedi beliefs and doctrines, they have not taken hold. He recites "the Jedi are selfless" like it's from a textbook; he is not selfless by any stretch of the imagination.

Palp listens to Anakin responses, and by the end of their exchange, he knows that Ani is ripe for the Sith. The Jedi lessons have not sunk in, and he wants to know ultimate power, which only(supposedly) the Sith can teach.

Anakin never thought far enough ahead to see himself as any kind of iconoclast. He only thought in the personal; himself, his mother, wife, best friend, mentor. The larger philosophical issues meant little or nothing to him.