Characters Anakin/Vader Characterization - Anakin in the New Clone Wars

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After talking to some fellow writers and readers of Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader and Anakin/Padmé fics in the Star Wars Community Anakin and Padmé Defenders thread, we decided to put up a study of the character. Because Anakin Skywalker and his alter ego Darth Vader are such complex characters, we should have plenty to discuss! Over the years, I?ve read some inspiring and wonderful fan fiction based on this multifaceted and compelling character. From the slave hovels of Tatooine to the second Death Star, his story has been told time and time again. From the special bond he shared with his mother, to the more intricate bond with his son, the one that ended up saving his soul ? his story is the crux of the galaxy?s story, and the Star Wars saga.

We?d like views from others like us who write Anakin or Vader fics, or just writers in general that are interested in discussing him. We understand some folks just don?t like the character, and that?s absolutely fine, everyone has their favorites. We just ask that if you?re not particularly into him that you don?t post anything that can be disrespectful of other?s opinions.

Discussion is for us to give thoughts, views and opinions. We will also be creating challenges. We?ll look at his bad side and good side and everything in between. We?ll look at the effect he had on other characters, and the effect others had on him. For challenges, we have a thread in the Saga forum.

For the challenges writers of all periods are welcome, as long as you center mainly on Anakin Skywalker or Darth Vader. Either personality is fine, we?ll have plenty of room to play. We?ll also work closely with the Padmé Amidala Skywalker Discussion thread and the Ani/Ami Index.

There is also a place to index Anakin/Vader stories at the

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located here: Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader Story Index










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On this thread we'll also have just general convo, silliness and bring your plot bunnies!!! Everyone's welcome!

 

Great thread, rhonderoo! Anakin/Vader is certainly one of the most complex characters I've encountered. He's not a "pure" hero or villain. Before the fall, he's got traces of darkness, and afterwards, he still has a code of honor. We could probably talk all day about him and still not have uncovered all his multifaceted personality.

What was the effect of the Jedi doctrine (good or bad) of limiting attachment on Anakin? How do you think it affects his later view of the galaxy?

Well, I think it had a terrible effect on him. Anakin's strength is in his relationships with others. He's an emotional, compassionate person who, at least in the beginning, seems to naturally empathize with people.

After all, in TPM, we're introduced to him as a generous little boy who's selflessly going to great lengths to help Qui-Gon, Padme, and co. repair their ship. Yes, podracing is something he really enjoys doing, regardless, but still he's shown as someone who's eager to help out, with no thought of getting anything for himself in return.

Anakin absolutely craves approval from his loved ones, and the sad part is that he never gets this (or feels that he has it, anyway) from Obi-Wan. Anakin is a demonstrative, emotionally open person, and he needs concrete proof that he is loved and wanted. Obi-Wan (and the other Jedi, too) didn't understand Anakin's insecurities and needs.

I do think Obi-Wan genuinely cared for Anakin, loved him deeply in fact, but he seems like he would just take it for granted that Anakin would understand that, and not need to have it spelled out.

Tragically, Palpatine clearly sees that Anakin needs strong relationships with others to feel complete and he happily goes about using this knowledge for his own advantage.

Hmm, I'm not sure how well I'm answering the question, but I think Anakin is an extrovert who almost can't help forming attachments to people. Being made to feel that this is wrong would create a lot of tension for him.

As for his later views of the galaxy, well, I think it's the fact that he's so cut off from other people that keeps him on the dark side for so long.

That abominable mask very effectively puts a barrier between him and everyone else. People react to him with fear and horror--yes, it's got a lot to do with his actions and not just his appearance--but that also makes it more difficult for him to empathize. His interactions with people are reduced to very impersonal levels.

That is, the people he has contact with are military officers and the Emperor, for the most part. It's all but impossible for Vader to form personal attachments on a close, friendly basis. In the CT, I don't remember anyone approaching Vader with anything resembling compassion (not pity!) and friendship until Luke does in RotJ.

Well, all this is just to say that attachments to others are integral to Anakin, and that's what ultimately saves him, and the entire galaxy.

Kristeh

 

What was the effect of the Jedi doctrine (good or bad) of limiting attachment on Anakin? How do you think it affects his later view of the galaxy?

I can understand why they limited attachments, an attachment could cause a Jedi to act biasedly, or preocupy them during a mission. An example would be when Padme falls out of the ship towards the end of AOTC, and Anakin wants to save her. He is doing a noble thing, and Obi-Wan should've acknowledge that, but It would interfere with the mission-at-hand, the greater good.

Now personally, I think he should've saved her and then gotten on with it, but thats just the Defender in me


I think since Anakin grew up with nothing, he feels that he should...'make up for lost time', so to speak, hence his lust for power.

The only thing that Anakin DID have was his mother, and her love. He misses her, and he is trying to keep the one thing he was used to. Obi-Wan doesnt freely express his fatherly love for Anakin, so Anakin looks elsewhere.

 

Hopefully I won?t regret getting involved.

What was the effect of the Jedi doctrine (good or bad) of limiting attachment on Anakin? How do you think it affects his later view of the galaxy?

I think the problem for the Jedi is that in many ways Yoda was correct to say that Anakin was too old to train. The ancient Greeks defined three types of love and the Jedi are meant to only love in the sense of love for all people (Agape) With Anakin though by the time they got their hands on him he had already formed an ?attachment? of familial love (Philia) to his mother and the start of romantic love (Eros) towards Padmé.

Therefore by forcing him into the policy of no-attachments they were trying to sever these attachments he had already made and forcing him to keep these feelings subdued, and since Obi-Wan and other Jedi did not have experience of these feelings (*) making Anakin feel alienated from them. They don?t have the experience so they can?t really sympathise, they don?t have the feelings so Anakin feels even more that he is not like the other Jedi.

(* = Some Jedi have fallen romantically in love, but not many in ?modern? era. Jedi Master Thracia Cho Leem (in Rogue Planet) ?took a break? from the Jedi Order to ?see how the force manifests in everyday life? and part of this was getting married and having ?many sons and daughters, on many worlds?...and she dealt very well with Padawan Skywalker in that scene in that novel.)

So to just deal with those two attachments I?ll argue ?what if they had let him keep them??

With his mother if he (and other Jedi children) were allowed some degree of contact with their parents it could cause a lot of trouble, parents can be real pains for teachers to deal with, but in Anakins case had he been able to be sending occasional messages to Shimi (once a month?) and perhaps visiting once in a while (once a year?) then he?d have had her emotional support.

Perhaps more importantly he?d have also been contacted by Cliegg as soon as Shimi was abducted by the Tuskens and possibly been able to save his mother, and thus not suffer the outpouring of rage her dying in his arms provoked.

Even had he not been able to save his mother it is possible that, although he would still have been devastated by her death, that if it had been less time since he?d seen her and even less time since they?d exchanged messages that it would have been a less violent reaction. A few weeks of things he?d wanted to tell her rather than ten years worth.

With Padmé things could have been very different. In AotC Anakin has been in love with Padmé for ten years and because of the no-attachments rule hasn?t seen her for that long, and in that time he has become a very handsome young man and old enough for the age difference between himself and her to be less important. So when they meet again Anakin is actually quite eligible and in a position to try to act on his feelings.

However had Anakin and Padmé been talking during those ten years then it is quite possible that Padmé would realise that ?little-Anny? had a crush on her (though probably not that was actual love rather than just a crush) and would discourage him since he was only a ?little boy?. Be the same sort of situation as if an 11-year old boy got a crush on the 16-year old girl babysitting him and his younger siblings.

So even if Anakin would always love Padmé it is likely that she?d have managed to convince him (even if it took a few years) that he was like a little brother and that she doesn?t think of him romantically...since a 17-year old Padmé would not consider a 12-year old Anakin to be boyfriend-material (unlike a 24-year old Padmé with a 19-year old ?all grown up? Anakin).

So had Anakin been able to keep his ?attachments? he?d have not had ten-years worth of regrets and missing her when his mother died and he?d have not had ten-years of loving Padmé without these feelings being brought out into the open and put into perspective.

 

Oh yeah, this is right up my alley! I'll be posting more soon.

 

To add my .02, attachments are a double-edged sword (lightsaber?) in this story. An emotional attachment can be a good thing but as Luke was warned in ROTJ, those feelings can be used against you. Especially if you are the sort of person who allows his emotions to do the driving, as Anakin does.

The problems lie with 1) Anakin's unaddressed issues as a slave 2) Anakin having lived in the "world" for a long time before being brought in as a Jedi 3) Anakin's need for love and approval that are not being met by the Jedi 4) the inability of the Jedi to recognize there can be a balance between having close friends, family, lovers etc. and not losing control over your emotions. Luke finds that middle ground.

--MissPadme

 

I've heard that 'connections' between Jedi and other are good but when they become attachements they get trickier. Being in love would bring stability and care and love but on the other hand those feelings can change quickly and those you care about can be used against you I.E Luke's friends were being used to threaten Luke.

I think that since Anakin was raised outside the temple his idea of attachements and the Jedi were compleatly different, with Padme, Anakin only saw the good but the Jedi saw all that could go wrong, there wasn't any middle way.

Obi Wan loves Anakin but it isn't clear to Anakin because he doesn't show it in the way Shmi showed she loved him.

Does any of this make sense?

 

The fact that the Jedi did not permit attachment was a logical rule. It fit well for those who did not form attachments as Anakin did or as Qui-Gon did. Love is a powerful feeling as many of us know. The need for it can be very destructive and cause a person to behave in a disastrous manner. People kill over love. Anakin, we know, needed love and approval. The only person he received it from until age nine was his mother. For then years after that, the nature of the love changed to a form he was not familiar with nor comfortable with. His attachment to Padme, his angel, would have saved him, I believe, if he was not dealing with other 'issues' of power and independence. He eventually lost all of those and wore a mask that is symbolic of his loneliness. I guess I can stop here. This could be very long

 

He's not a "pure" hero or villain. Before the fall, he's got traces of darkness, and afterwards, he still has a code of honor. We could probably talk all day about him and still not have uncovered all his multifaceted personality.

Anakin absolutely craves approval from his loved ones, and the sad part is that he never gets this (or feels that he has it, anyway) from Obi-Wan. Anakin is a demonstrative, emotionally open person, and he needs concrete proof that he is loved and wanted. Obi-Wan (and the other Jedi, too) didn't understand Anakin's insecurities and needs.

I do think Obi-Wan genuinely cared for Anakin, loved him deeply in fact, but he seems like he would just take it for granted that Anakin would understand that, and not need to have it spelled out.


I agree, Kristeh. I think the appeal of Anakin to his fans is that he isn?t pure hero or villain. One thing is for sure, one could never refer to Anakin Skywalker as a Mary Sue. And you?re absolutely right, as downright ornery as Vader can be, he has this (sometimes misplaced) weird code of honor and thinks that what he is doing is the ?right? thing to do. He does however, believe that the ends justifies the means.


I think since Anakin grew up with nothing, he feels that he should...'make up for lost time', so to speak, hence his lust for power.

The only thing that Anakin DID have was his mother, and her love. He misses her, and he is trying to keep the one thing he was used to. Obi-Wan doesnt freely express his fatherly love for Anakin, so Anakin looks elsewhere.

Very well put. I remember in my Psychology class in college, we talked about the effect poverty has on that segment of society. If you grow up with nothing, it makes you greedy?afraid of losing what you have. For Anakin, it just happens to be people rather than things.

Therefore by forcing him into the policy of no-attachments they were trying to sever these attachments he had already made and forcing him to keep these feelings subdued, and since Obi-Wan and other Jedi did not have experience of these feelings (*) making Anakin feel alienated from them. They don?t have the experience so they can?t really sympathise, they don?t have the feelings so Anakin feels even more that he is not like the other Jedi.

Obi Wan loves Anakin but it isn't clear to Anakin because he doesn't show it in the way Shmi showed she loved him.

Does any of this make sense?

Good point, JM and Hananiah. Like Kristeh said above, Obi-Wan cares for Anakin and is sincerely trying to do the right thing, but he?s like the Jedi in that it?s easy to give up something you never had. I think when it?s all said and done, the Jedi were supposed to be learning a lesson, too. Obi-Wan, especially uses this in his training of Luke.

?the inability of the Jedi to recognize there can be a balance between having close friends, family, lovers etc. and not losing control over your emotions. Luke finds that middle ground.

You?re right, MP. I think that?s exactly why Luke is able to overcome the darkside. Besides having the example of his father, he was able to be in a loving, open home growing up and was given more leeway by Obi-Wan and Yoda, who seemed to have learned something from Anakin?s mistake.

 

What was the effect of the Jedi doctrine (good or bad) of limiting attachment on Anakin? How do you think it affects his later view of the galaxy?


I think the Jedi doctrine had a terrible effect on Anakin. The Jedi doctrine forbids some things that, at the time Anakin started his training, he already had them in his soul, in his mind. And that change (You know, on one day he could feel anger, hatred and love for someone [The feelings that a human being uses to live] and on the other day, he couldn't do that because he had to follow this rules... he had to follow the Jedi doctrine) , I think, it was terrible to him. It's okay he had always wanted to be a Jedi, it was his dream... but if the Jedi doctrine wasn't so.. oppressive... maybe he hadn't done the things he did..

Sorry if I didn't make any sense, but my ideas are a bit confused today

Great thread, btw

 

Oops, deleting message because I messed up.

 

So has anyone seen "The Return of Darth Vader" documentary on the new DVD's?

In looking at it, you get the feeling (like we didn't have that feeling already) that it is going to be heavy and George is not holding back.

I worry for both Anakin and Padme (not to mention the Jedi and Obi-Wan) in this. It looks like no one comes out happy (yeah, duh). So many times you hear in a thread "that giving into his feelings for Padmé started him down the dark path". Even in Anakin's entry into the Star Wars databank on the official site they refer to the effect his marriage has on the events that happen later.

There's an interesting discussion in the Padme discussion thread that ties into this. I am one of those die-hard romantics that refuses to give into the notion that this isn't what "the Force" wanted all along. I think their relationship goes a little deeper than just a "forbidden love". After all Luke and Leia wouldn't be here if they weren't.

 

I am one of those die-hard romantics that refuses to give into the notion that this isn't what "the Force" wanted all along. I think their relationship goes a little deeper than just a "forbidden love". After all Luke and Leia wouldn't be here if they weren't.

I guess I'm not as big a fan of the concept of a locked destiny. Not even for the fulfillment of prophecy.


To me, believing that Anakin was destined to become Vader is to say that Anakin bears no responsibility for the evil he committed. After all, it was destined to happen.

IMO it's much more impactful if Anakin turns to evil by conscious choice, to demonstrate that we all have the capacity for good or evil within us and what we make of our lives, in the end, depends upon the choices we make.

 

To me, believing that Anakin was destined to become Vader is to say that Anakin bears no responsibility for the evil he committed. After all, it was destined to happen.

Oh, I agree on that part. I'm just more inclined to believe that the whole Jedi ideal of "no attachments" is flawed. Anakin could have very well left the order to marry, or when he found out he was going to be a father, made a difficult choice. He didn't and that was another step in the wrong direction. But it could have forced the Jedi to look at themselves differently if they still needed to keep him.

It all boils down to Anakin's choice, that is what makes ROTJ so powerful, but he did have a lot of things stack up against him and if he was a person of stellar, noble, and unselfish character he could have probably made MUCH better choices. Like I mentioned above though, people tend to become more selfish the more they think things are being "taken from them." He didn't hold to Padme and his children in the end, and to me, this is probably the ONE thing that pushed him over that precipice.

 

I think Anakin was destined to face the choice to become Vader or remain Anakin. He CHOSE the darkness and turned away from the light, but he would face that fork in the road because it was his destiny to do so.

 

I think I'd like some clarification about Padme's feelings. What is it about Anakin that draws her to him? There was some speculation in Lit that he might have influenced her though the Force in an unconscious way. That his feelings were so intense they couldn't help but affect her, and that explains why she'd take a risk like that. I'm not sure I'd agree. I don't know if the Force could "leak" like that. And I think her feelings were more complex, but it is an interesting line of thought.

I do agree with Herman here though.

 

I read somewhere, and I'm not sure where, so I'll apologize beforehand for using someone's theory - that maybe the Force allowed for a "backup system" if you will, in Luke. That if things went awry and Anakin made the wrong choice, that there would be someone there to help him get back to the point where he could fulfill the prophecy. I think that's where the complexity of the character comes in. So many things look pre-ordained, but in the end it comes down to his choice(s).

Of course, one could look at it as some sort of cosmic test that Anakin failed also.

One things for sure, I'm not sure (in fact I'm certain) that ROTS won't tie up all the loose ends when it comes to Anakin/Vader and we'll be discussing Vader and his machinations for years.

 

Hi rhonderoo! Great thread. Let me see what I can contribute to both topics:

What was the effect of the Jedi doctrine (good or bad) of limiting attachment on Anakin? How do you think it affects his later view of the galaxy?

Very, very difficult to say. The Jedi should have made an effort to adapt their laws to suit Anakin - he was obviously not their Everyday Joe Initiate when he came to the Temple. On the other hand, did Anakin make as much effort on his part to adapt to the Jedi lifestyle? I, for one, am inclined to think that he did. But if then - why didn't he succeed?

There's an interesting discussion in the Padme discussion thread that ties into this. I am one of those die-hard romantics that refuses to give into the notion that this isn't what "the Force" wanted all along. I think their relationship goes a little deeper than just a "forbidden love". After all Luke and Leia wouldn't be here if they weren't

I sort of see the 'forbidden love' leading to L/L as a Plan B for the Force - in a manner of speaking. IMHO, Plan A was for Anakin to be the model Jedi and defeat the Sith Master Palpatine, thereby restoring balance to the Force. He didn't. So there was now Plan B, where the very thing that he took him from the Order and his destiny was what brought him back to fulfilling it.

I don't think Anakin was destined to become Vader - to me the whole tragedy of Star Wars - reflecting on the OT when watching the PT - is that Anakin's turn was avoidable.

MariahJade2:

I think I'd like some clarification about Padme's feelings. What is it about Anakin that draws her to him? There was some speculation in Lit that he might have influenced her though the Force in an unconscious way. That his feelings were so intense they couldn't help but affect her, and that explains why she'd take a risk like that. I'm not sure I'd agree. I don't know if the Force could "leak" like that. And I think her feelings were more complex, but it is an interesting line of thought.

I don't think so either. IThat theory has been postulated before though.

 

I read somewhere, and I'm not sure where, so I'll apologize beforehand for using someone's theory - that maybe the Force allowed for a "backup system" if you will, in Luke. That if things went awry and Anakin made the wrong choice, that there would be someone there to help him get back to the point where he could fulfill the prophecy. I think that's where the complexity of the character comes in. So many things look pre-ordained, but in the end it comes down to his choice(s).


If I had only refreshed my page, I would have spared myself a lot of typing there! rhonderoo

 

I'm here, roo!

I?m not a fan of predestination theories, either. I agree with leia_naberrie in that the story of Anakin Skywalker is a tragedy.

I think Ewan McGregor gave the best explanation I?ve heard to date regarding Anakin?s fall in the ?Return of Darth Vader? documentary. He said: ?It comes from very human things. That he?s in love and that he?s going to be a father? We?ve all done it, messed things up because we?re young and naïve and not able to step back...?

Anakin feels very deeply and has trouble stepping back from those feelings. Like he said, it?s a maturity issue. Not that Anakin was immature, but people with profound emotional intensity simply need more time and guidance to learn to control those emotions. And Palpatine does one thing really well: he takes a person?s greatest strength (in this case, Anakin's passion) and uses it to mess them up.

I don?t believe for a minute that Anakin?s love for his wife and unborn children caused him to fall to the dark side. But I do believe that the combination of the Jedi leadership?s unwillingness or inability to address the issue and Palpatine?s talent for exploitation set Anakin up perfectly for a downward spiral.

 

Anakin feels very deeply and has trouble stepping back from those feelings.


Obi-Wan was able to get Anakin to focus on events after Padme fell out of the transport in AOTC. However, by ROTS, Anakin's attachment to Padme will be much stronger and he'll likewise be much more independent of Obi-Wan.


Given what we know must inevitably occur in ROTS, it's still tragic, though not as surprising, that Anakin makes the wring decision that he does.

 

This is right up my alley. I will definitely be coming back and posting. Maybe after I have actually slept a little.

 

Obi-Wan was able to get Anakin to focus on events after Padme fell out of the transport in AOTC. However, by ROTS, Anakin's attachment to Padme will be much stronger and he'll likewise be much more independent of Obi-Wan.

This is what is going to be interesting to see in the next movie. Anakin has grown up, he will be similar to Luke in ROTJ (somewhat), meaning he has settled down some, I guess. He will probably seem to be more forward thinking probably and listen to OW, at first...it will be interesting (and sad) to see the disintergration of their friendship and mentor/mentee relationship. I wonder what part Padme will have in all of this. I don't see her as being someone who would purposely insert herself between the two, but her family comes first (I'm guessing, given her nature).

 

Were there no entries for this challenge? I was going to post one, but I saw that it ended on 9/21. Is it too late to post one on that thread? And mine wasn't exactly mushy...

 

Hmm...interesting, but I'm not sure if I can add much to the discussion. As some of you may know, I am infamous on some threads for seriously questioning the idea that the Jedi are any model of morality and 'good,' given their code that seems to produce profoundly short sighted and utilitarian beings. In fact, I have argued occasionally that they are the secondary villians of the Saga.

That having been said, is itthe Jedi's fault that Anakin fell? No. Did they contribute to creating the preconditions for the fall? Absolutely.

The Anakin/Padme relationship will help lead to the fall,(IMHO) only because it makes Anakin vulnerable to significant manipulation.

One thing that has always struck me is that Anakin's bad choices have to make sense to the audience. We have to be able to say, "Yeah, I could see myself doing that in the same situation." If we can't, then the whole Saga becomes problematic. That is the challenge for ROTS.

Just my .02 credits.

GL