PT Anakin's perceived love triangle with Obi-Wan and Padme in ROTS

There's a very subtle moment in ROTS that fuels Anakin's hatred of Obi-Wan by the time of the Mustafar duel, but didn't take until my last viewing of the film a couple of weeks ago to fully click. Immediately following Obi-Wan's departure to Utapau, Anakin has another vision of Padme's death, but this time, instead of her crying for Anakin, Obi-Wan is at her side. That very next scene is Anakin at the apartment and he immediately asks Padme, "Obi-Wan's been here, hasn't he?" Neither the film nor any of the characters mention it explicitly, but I think after that exchange Anakin quietly begins to suspect that Padme might be cheating on him with Obi-Wan.

Obviously, in the reality of the film Padme isn't cheating on Anakin with Obi-Wan, but I think that it just adds another layer onto Anakin's self deception and disillusionment. By the time he sees Obi-Wan on Padme's ship on Mustafar, his own suspicions have seemingly been confirmed, thus pushing him over the edge and Force choking Padme and fully cementing his hatred for his former master.

This piece of motivation also works as a subtle homage to Raging Bull by Martin Scorsese, one of Lucas' cinematic peers.

 

Nice catch with the vision of Obi in the dream. Jealousy definitely played a part in his anger towards Obi-wan.

I don't really think Anakin thought Padme was cheating on him, i think it is just that Anakin is very private and protective of Padme. He has a selfish relationship with her, and his greatest fear is losing her. Anakin fears Obi-wan intervening in his life, even though I doubt Obi-wan ever would. I think he knew it was going on all along.

 

Well, he smells a rat, let's put it that way. No-one wants to feel they're being cuckolded.

You cite "Raging Bull" (Anakin is a bit of a literal "raging bull": see his Maul-ish pacing posture when he confronts Obi-Wan on Mustafar), but "Othello" is another quotation that fits well (Anakin=Othello, Palpatine=Iago, Padme=Desdemona, Obi-Wan=Cassio).

And yes, that scene (one of my favourites, BTW) establishes there is a dark, sexual edge at work; which fits well with the sibling rivalry set up and jazzily explored in the previous film (AOTC). However, it's more, as Kenobi1138 just brilliantly put it, I think, that Anakin is (directly stealing) "private and protective of Padme", and yes, hates the thought of someone else -- let alone his mentor/master and quasi-equal -- interfering with his life in all its facets (and having just seemingly lied to his face). To Anakin, Padme siding with Obi-Wan is as bad as her cheating with him: in his "lost" tailspin toward the Dark Side, it's the ultimate betrayal, the ultimate spurn.

In Anakin's mind, he is for Padme, and she is for him. It's a circle built for two: she is his guardian, and he is her protector, no-one else. In Anakin's mind, they're meant to be "for" each other: a curiously romantic quality of them versus the world. Anakin is strongly idealistic. But in a desperately attached, fatalistic sort of way. He sees this as their private problem: a bind that only his powers can get them out of. That's kind of why he falls in the first place. Rather than face up his demons, everything becomes internalized. He confuses his thoughts with his identity; and his identity becomes one of a faithful protector. In the midst of brutal killing, galactic treachery, and crushing compromise, the one thing Anakin tries to keep pure is his relationship with Padme; even as it increasingly becomes pulled into a broader power web. So, from Anakin's point-of-view, cheating or not, what happens on Mustafar, what he "discovers", is devastating.

Arguably, Anakin, for all his fury and doubt, still looks at Obi-Wan as a "White Knight". Two really neat wrinkles in this fabric are Anakin's continued (sublimated) need for a mentor; even after the hopeless descent into madness on Mustafar. When Anakin argues with Padme, he actually shouts the word "Liar!" over her head, as if (subconsciously) gesturing to Obi-Wan to intervene and stop him. When he then places Padme in a choke, Obi-Wan dutifully tells Anakin to "let her go", twice, and Anakin then releases her. It's like Anakin, for all he has done, still craves guidance from Obi-Wan, even at his angriest/most crazed. It's an echo of the way Obi-Wan gets Anakin back on-track and narrowly saves everyone's skins when he rouses on the Invisible Hand, giving the order to "jump" out of the elevator shaft as the car hurtles toward them. Even when they're surfing down the lava river, Anakin throws in an odd qualifier when tussling with Obi-Wan: "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil." Psychologically, Anakin remains in Obi-Wan's pocket; he's searching for a melody that Obi-Wan never quite sings.

Oh, yeah. The other neat thing. When, as Vader, Anakin tells Luke, "Obi-Wan once thought as you do," in ROTJ, on the eve of his redemption, you could interpret that as Anakin having made peace with what happened on Mustafar, to an extent. He's telling the audience (Luke wouldn't be able to understand as he never glimpsed this backstory; indeed, he protests to Leia, he has no memory of his mother) that he has come to terms with the idea that Padme wasn't actually "with" Obi-Wan, but rather, was either talked into it or inadvertently brought him along (as happened) and pleaded with Anakin as Obi-Wan's conscious/unconscious bargaining chip to bring Anakin back to the light. Basically, he has come to see it all as a tragic mistake: Obi-Wan was letting Padme talk her husband round in order to avoid the very confrontation that then took place. So, by the time of ROTJ, Anakin is looking back at his life with a lot of sadness and regret, even though he has tried to repress it all ("That name no longer has any meaning for me"). Lucas wasn't kidding when he called the completed six-movie saga "The Tragedy of Darth Vader".

But yes, perception, perception, perception.

Perception is everything.

As Qui-Gon tried to instil in Anakin:

"Your focus determines your reality."

He perceived things a certain way, that became his reality.

 

I tend to disagree. I think the problem is completely different and is not connected to any love jealousy, if I can so. Anakin is not Othello, is more like king Arthur who is offended by the mere betrayal of his closest knight, not by the adultery itself (is not that he is OK with it, but the betrayal is what bothers him). Of course, it wasn't any adultery in PT, I just make a reference how Anakin or more precisely said, Vader feels about this: more like Arthur and not Othello.
The problem is that Anakin begins to suspect Obi Wan or more precisely said, to mistrust him. This is terrible because Obi is like his surrogate father, his closest friend. I cannot say that he has no right to mistrust him; Anakin is still angry about his position in the Council (being there without being a master) and I think he is angry to Obi Wan personally (it can be seen in the scene after the Council reunion) because not only Obi Wan accepted the Council position, but he also was the person who informed Ani about the spying (and Anakin disagree with that). So this is the first time when he feels like betrayed by Obi, no matter that he is not and he begins to doubt him. If this was AOTC Anakin he would say that to Obi Wan directly, but ROTS Anakin is more reserved, he learned to control his spontaneous reactions (I wouldn't say his emotions, because it is not the same) so he didn't say everything he thinks as AOTC Anakin would do. Anakin mistrust Obi Wan not about what he feels about Padme but what Obi thinks about his apprentice; my interpretation is that Anakin thinks that maybe as Obi Wan plotted with the Council he could do the same with Padme. Padme soothes Anakin, but still, he is suspicious.

One more detail: in the scene where Padme and Anakin talk, Anakin asks about Obi Wan after a short moment when he looked at some monitor device. I searched for a clip that shows this, but unfortunately I found only this musical video where the device can be seen at 3:13-3:17.



I have always thought that what he sees in this device is connected to his question about Obi Wan (after all, why look at this if there is no reason to do it). Maybe is some security record, I have no idea, but I think it is the reason behind ‘Obi Wan’ theme.

One more very important issue: Anakin had never mistrusted Padme till the very moment when he sees Obi Wan on her ship in Mustafar. The typical jealous guy will always suspect the woman first. Othello is the essence of this jealousy: he suspects Desdemona and in the end she is innocent. Anakin had never been such type , even in his Vader persona, but I agree with Cryo, he become overprotective to her and this can be seen in its culmination on Mustafar. That is more possession than jealousy and even then he doesn't think that Padme cheats him but that she betrayed him (You bring him to kill me). In the end even he overthrow his madness and come to his senses for the last time in ROTS (asking the Emperor how is Padme) but it is too late then.

 

Yes, I think this is a more grown-up and acute way of looking at it. It's not a "real" love triangle, despite the fact that Anakin, as Vader, breathes through a triangular grill, whose vertices are three orbs (there's also the loose evocation of a three-orbed triangle in ANH's opening shot: the two moons of Tatooine and the blockade runner, which passes by the camera, moving deeper along the z-axis, transiently makes a "third" moon before the Star Destroyer passes by and occludes it). In short, the fates of Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan are tied together, and Coruscant, or their interlinking, makes for a sort of illusory "Camelot". In this breakdown, they're more like three friends who all have at least mild disagreements with the system, and two just happen to be in love. The tragedy is that they don't communicate openly with one another; things are held back and kept inside. Anakin had it right in AOTC when, pressed by Padme, he said living a lie would "destroy" them.

Arguably -- and I believe I have argued this before (though some time ago) -- a love triangle, or even the perception of one by Anakin, taints or at least obscures some keener issues that the films wish to raise. A love triangle, I think, within the parameters of the story Lucas constructed, would have been a fairly artless addition. It's sort of ROTS' "How come Anakin has such a nice existence under Watto?" issue-which-isn't-actually-an-issue. That is, just as giving Anakin a harsher existence on Tatooine would have conventionalized the story, obscuring the more subtle focus on the tragedy of slavery itself ("Poor Anakin! Look at those bruises!"), so a love triangle in ROTS would have muddied up some of the more subtle issues that the picture is trying to bring up about relationships and society as a whole. Well, in my opinion, anyway. I've never been down with a love triangle, myself.

Indeed. In something of an echo of the interrogation scene between Obi-Wan and Dooku in AOTC, Anakin actually skips right to the heart of the matter in the "Hero Lost" scene, confessing to Padme, after she asks what he means about feeling "lost", that "Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust me" -- *that* is what is really gnawing at him.

I love your observation there, also, regarding an interesting psychological -- or behavioural -- difference between AOTC and ROTS Anakin. Yes, I see that. He does exude a bit finer control, on the surface, doesn't he? I mean, it's not gargantuan, but it's there... it's something.

Also, you provide a new and exciting way to re-read the earlier clash between Anakin and Obi-Wan after the Council meeting, where Anakin is denied the rank of Master and given the grim news of his assignment by Obi-Wan "off the record". I never took it that way, before, but it's possible, I think, to retrofit your observations even to that earlier scene; as if Anakin is beginning to mull over losing control (or perhaps subconsciously fearing it) in his private sphere if Obi-Wan has that much influence with the Council (from Anakin's POV). That's great!

But yeah, by the "Hero Lost" chapter, I don't think Anakin is too happy to be, in a sense, "losing out" to Obi-Wan, and the subject of meddling by someone he accused (though behind his back) of "holding him back" in AOTC. He seems to have tried to have moved beyond that in the first part of ROTS, but then fresh wounds are opened up after that uncomfortable Council scene, and we see Anakin's trust fading -- "Sometimes I wonder what's happening to the Jedi Order..." -- in rhythm with the declining sun (he is a "son"/"sun" in decline). There's a real poetry to the whole movie.

I've never quite known what to make of the pad thing, to be honest. I mean, I love it, naturally -- but what's really going on there?

One thing I will say: It's interesting how Obi-Wan intrudes into Anakin's dream-space while Obi-Wan himself is transiting in hyperspace.

Always "more to learn" and reflect upon in these singularly enveloping, meditative, visual masterpieces...

 

Yes! And I would say that many fans describe the love story of PT as cheesy. I disagree completely but if they had included love triangle it would be indeed cheesy (wait, they did it in the Clone wars series and it was cheesy). It is the easiest and the dullest way to describe how the love story is bring to an end or to a tragedy, but I think that the big tragedy of the love of Ani and Padme is indeed that it stayed pure and faithful to the end in Mustafar. Padme never betrayed Anakin and the tragedy of Anakin is that he betrayed her thinking that he is saving her. But again, till their last breath (Anakin also dies metaphorically when Padme is dying) they think about each other.

Nice observation about the poetry.!!! Yes, it is. I think the relationship between Obi and Anakin is generally misunderstood by the fans. It is complex as many things in PT and also it changes in the course of the movies, not only form Anakin point of view, but form Obi Wan's also. Obi Wan from ROTS is not the same as Obi Wan from AOTC: both of them are more secure in their abilities ( I refer here to Obi Wan's abilities as a master, not as Jedi) more relaxed and more mature one to another... well till the moment when the new crisis becomes, of course.

Well, in the end, I agree that seeing Obi Wan in the premonition indeed disturbs Anakin's mind, but, of course, not for any 'cheating" but I think because Obi Wan's figure is the only thing that changes there (Padme is still going to die in childbirth, but why I'm not there and why is he but not me there?) Speaking about the pad, I was thinking also when Anakin sees this premonition? He sees the other ones in his sleep (even in AOTC, even in the deleted scenes). But now we see the premonition on screen and immediately after that it cuts to Anakin sit on Padme's sofa, looking at some pad. It is possible that he see that staring on this monitor and for this reason he could feel Obi Wan's previous presence in the room? Just a theory.

 

I liked her response to his "I'm not the one sneaking in in the morning."

"That's when you're usually sneaking out."

 

I wonder if the love triangle was actually considered a bigger plot point in earlier drafts

Because thank **** it isn't in the finished product except to that tiny degree, because damn

 

If anything it would probably be more along the lines of the novelisation, where Padme increasingly turns to Obi-Wan for completely platonic support and advice as a friend but Anakin being Anakin reads far too much into every little detail and convinces himself it's something it really isn't. Obi-Wan is supposed to be the completely traditional, typical Jedi to contrast with Anakin's ''loose cannon/rabid cop'' characterisation and romantic relationships as per the actual movies are just not the Jedi way*. An actual love triangle would have just been wrong in many, many ways.

*Yes Lucas has/had flip-flopped on this repeatedly but in the movies the only Jedi we actually see in a romantic relationship of any kind is Anakin, which ends... badly.

 

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her, it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint, but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all. And it's because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it. And now he’s assuming that she’s with Obi-wan, not necessarily in a love relationship or anything, in the basis that they are both on one side of the path and he’s going down the other."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

So he doesn't think they're in a relationship, but he is bothered by why they're together in his vision and in his apartment. He fears that Obi-wan knows and will rat him out.

I think Lucas only toyed with the idea in TPM, but dropped it because it just didn't fit for him.

 

Unfortunately, the notion of a love triangle was never explored and expanded upon. Which I think is a great shame. It would have added so much to the narrative of Kenobi, Padme and Anakin.

 

It would have changed the story dramatically. Jedi don't have love triangles. They are actually sort of superhuman in their ability to follow the rules of the Jedi. Also it makes Anakin responsible for his own fall.

 

It also would have made Kenobi's character arc far more interesting. And Padme's too come to think of it..The dynamic of the end duel would primarily have been about Kenobi winning the heart of Padme. By defeating an evil, twisted, and corrupted Anakin who was totally beyond help..

 

I'm sorry to say it but I don't see anything particularly interesting in such plot. Nothing more than a typical hero movie, like thousands other of such kind. Mr. Goody- two-shoes against the monster. I prefer PT as they are : the TRAGEDY of the good guy Anakin Skywalker.

 

A typical hero movie? Obi Wan falling for Padme also wouldn't be typical. His feelings for her would have to be very strong. Strong enough for him to contemplate disobeying the doctrine. Imagine a Padme torn between her love for both of them..

 

On a thread I started (Anakin vs Obi Wan and choke on Padme is underrated) I compared and contrasted these two scenes GL talks about (highlighted in red) above. If so inclined have a look.

MJ

 

Thank goodness Lucas didn't go the love triangle route in TPM or RoTS. It's a plot device that's far too overused, and they usually do more harm than good for storytelling quality.

 

I think that the part where Padme says "...you're going down a path I can't follow" and Anakin replies "because of Obi Wan?" (I feel he noticed Obi Wan at that moment earlier than just before the "Liar!" part) , the love triangle chance maybe right there only.

MJ

 

It was more like a trust triangle. Oh BTW, Pads was touching Obi's thigh when the PT3 was riding the Reek on Geonosis.

 

Thinking about how that could work in the story - my biggest questions is where would that fit timewise? There is really no room for it in AotC or RotS - so it would have had to of been set up in TPM - or require a 4th movie. So much happens in the prequels - each movie could be it's own season of a TV show.

 

Yes, even in OT Lea looks like torn between her feelings to Luke and Han when suddenly she knew that everything is fine because Luke is her brother. Actually this is widely used motive in the soap operas still in those times (OT era) so again cliched. Not to mention that the incoventional love story between the younger and more emotional man and a little older and more rational woman would end in a so often used cliched of a older protector of a fragile flower.

If Padme makes 2 Jedi deviate from their path, she will convert from a woman that brings light and reason and good to a such that destroys men‘s life.. well so Freudian, misoginystic and infair to her character. Padme is loyal to death. Not to mention how this would destroy Obi Wan‘s character in so many ways.

So, generally the so called triangle would be not only predictable but very lazy way to “resolve“ Anakin‘s fall but in the movie the things are not so simplistic. I‘m even glad that Lucas cut from the movie every single frame that could lead to such doubts even gestures (well this on AOTC was inevitable, Obi Wan couldn‘t climb alone on the beast because his hands were still in handcuffs, but if you see how they are “situated“ one the beast‘s back is how is supposed to be: Padme is “on Anakin‘s back“ and Obi Wan is apart, a little distant from the couple.)

One things that amazes me is that (not in this thread but in many others) many people perceive chance of a love triangle when it can be seen that still in the veranda conversation Padme mistrust Obi Wan or more precisely said she refuses to reveal the truth about Anakin and this happens before the Obi Wan revelation of what Anakin did. But why Padme would do that if she trusts Obi Wan? Well, she doesn‘t. She is with Anakin, as she always was. She perceives the danger for Anakin because she loves him, there is no sign of confusion in her. The tragedy is that she goes to Mustafar because she loves him, she wants to save him. The tragedy is that Anakin betrays her lying to himself that he is saving her. The tragedy of Obi Wan is that he destroys his friend and unwillingly participates in this betrayal to Padme. So to sell all this tragedy to a cheap overly soapic “method“ to resolve the fabula ... well, no, thanx. I‘m glad that Lucas didn‘t do that.

 

I also disagree with an actual love triangle being a plot element for ROTS or the prequel trilogy in general, but Anakin's self manipulated perception of one adds to his delusions about others and himself. In Raging Bull, Jake LaMotta accuses his brother Joey of sleeping with his wife, even though it's self fabricated, and based on little evidence. There are other films one could cite in comparison, but I bring up Raging Bull since Scorsese is one of Lucas' close friends, and Lucas certainly took influence from his other close filmmaking friends Spielberg and Coppola when making ROTS. Here's the clip (includes NSFW language):

 

I think it just makes Anakin look even dumber and less "sympathetic" to me. Give Anakin a legitimate reason to hate Obi-Wan. This isn't one.

I saw it quite clearly on first viewing...and was like "come on Anakin, you know Padme and Obi-Wan weren't knocking boots".

 

what was left out was more distrust sewn by Palpatine to Anakin that Padme couldn't be trusted in the third deleted 'rebellion' scene. I am glad that was left out.