Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

Was going through a topic by Sinrebirth where we began talking about the Celestials and the Stygian Caldera. This kind of got me thinking that rather than derail that topic, I would make a dedicated thread about the Celestials but decided to include the other ancient races like the Rakata, Gree, Kwa, Sharu, Kathol and others since it would be easy to lump them all together.

Celestials
So, what do we know what the Celestials did?
*They seemingly had "all the knowledge of the universe" which may not be literal but during FotJ, the Mind Walkers offered Luke/Jacen to bathe in the Pool of Knowledge but it was refused as they did not want to become like the Celestial.
*According to DNT, the Killiks were used as labourers to make Centerpoint Station which TCT states was used to move the five planets into the system and also used to create the Maw.
*Sinkhole Station was also constructed according to FotJ to contain Abeloth.
*At some point, they created machinery beneath Kessel for some unknown purpose.
*Similarly, they made the Cosmic Turbine which was used to move Vultar as well.
*They crafted the Cron Cluster, Hapes Cluster, and Kathol Rift.
*TUR states they made the hyperspace anomalies in the Unknown Regions with the speculation that it was done so to isolate the Mnggal-Mnggal.
*The Kwa Infinity Gates were based on Celestial principles.
*The power of the Celestials led to the likes of the Sharu regressing their civilization and the Columni going into self-imposed exile.
*Eventually, their power waned allowing the Infinite Empire to become the dominant power in the galaxy.
*The Aing-Tii Prophet believed that the Celestials would return and within his lifetime

Speculations on my part but potential further links to the Celestials:
*Could the Father, Son and Daughter along with Mortis have something to do with the Celestials?
*Could Dathomir's Vitality mentioned in SWG be linked to the Celestials or perhaps the Kwa?
*Was there Celestial involvement in the Utegetu Nebula? DN says that the Fizz which plagued the Killiks was a nanotech defence system designed to attack anything that harmed the environment. Perhaps it was a group of "paradise worlds" where the Celestials wanted ideal isolated worlds that would not be affected by outsiders.

Note on the above: Not advocating everything being attributed to the Celestials, just commenting on possible links.

Anyway, to begin with Celestial intervention, the reason I made the thread is because we were talking about the possibility of the Celestials making the Stygian Caldera similar to how they made the Kathol Rift and Cron Cluster. Its said that the reason they fabricated certain hyperspace anomalies like those in the Unknown Regions is to isolate the Mnggal-Mnggal from preying on the rest on the galactic community. That combined with making the Maw using Centerpoint was to contain Abeloth within that cluster of blackholes. So, they seem to had crafted these sites to contain threats. Yet, CeiranHarmony makes a good mention as to why did they make the Hapes Cluster? I offered the suggestion that perhaps not all these sites were meant to contain threats. Some may have been made to create isolated paradises as mentioned above that would be safe havens from outside threats maybe? Speculation on my part but thought I would mention it.

Why did they do perhaps make the Stygian Caldera? Its possible they forsaw a threat by the ancient Sith and sought to contain them. Perhaps even the Caldera was impenetrable until the Rakata Force drives ripped a hole in them making them more permeable and allowing outsiders to stumble into them? Whilst speculation, it would be an interesting reason and envoke that feeling that the Rakata had unleashed a threat onto the outside galaxy during their campaigns of conquests.

Also, beyond their creations, what exactly were the Celestials? I mean the term kind of comes from the Marvel era where they were immense cosmic star gods that conducted g

 

and here I am, haunting you through every new topic


Kessel's underground tunnels with Celestian tech: It was said that the tech was there to monitor all gravitational forces in the whole galaxy in a throwaway line in the book it appeared in. Well minimalistic version might suggest just those relevant to Celestial constructs/tech, maximalistic version means all literally. interesting


Sinkhole stations destruction might be tied to Abeloths prison getting holes as if black holes vanish or shrink without Sinkhole managing them somehow.


Cosmic Turbine: destruction of Centerpoint Station had interesting effects on other Celestian tech on Kessel and Sinkhole Station in the Maw. What consequences might the Vultar Cataclysm thus have had and how were some other catastrophic events stopped tied to that one? Also, Centerpoint was named by Corellians. Was Centerpoint a Cosmic Turbine too? same design and function, sine both moved systems/planets through space as far as we know. Or is there more to the turbine?


Cron Cluster: we know too little about the Cron cluster sadly and after the Sith made it go nova to destroy Ossus I wonder what other celestial repercussions we might have missed there.

Hapes Cluster: paradise refuge cut off from dangerous galaxy or prison, whatever its purpose had been, it still is a beauty.

Kathol Rift: now this one is interesting if researching all the legends and facts surrounding it. I wonder if the Celestials were tied also to Otherspace somehow



Unknown Regions barrier: with recent travel to and from the UR, one wonders what lead to the hyperspace barrier getting holes. Vultar Cataclysm maybe? galactic drift?


Kwa, Gree: If their hypergates are based on celestial principles, when did they start using them then? during Rakata times first after the fall of the Celestials or already before? Because they'd have not too much time then to expand their empires, make war against each other and retreat to dumbness to not be threatened by the Celestials/Rakata (following the Sharu example!)


Sharu: Aargau dawn pyramids + Sharu = me wanting more Sharu stuff throughout the galaxy in between.




Mortis: as much as I am for letting it stay as mysterious halfmyth/halftruth and without scientific facts about it in the EU to define it further, it might have to do with Celestial influences. the space construct and their world might have to do with celestials but the three inhabitnats I doubt. if believing in the jedi emergency beacon call and such stuff leading into Mortis trilogy, they are mortals who took on their roles their after arriving 3000 years ago. taking probably over from earlier incarnations of Choosen Ones.



Dathomirs Vitality: I have no idea but I hope so


Utegetu Nebula: Nice I nearly forgot it. since Celestials moved Killiks and used their labor forces I bet Utegetu nebula and other surprises close to them were intentional, if not by them then by those knowing the Killiks




What is a Celestial: sorting fact and myth my best guess and opinion is that they are "ascended beings of multiple species" which reached a level of kinda godhood and myth where technology and magic are indistinguishable from each other. kinda Stargate/esoteric circles ascension lore + ancient god family trees of earth mythology.
What Abeloth is still is open yet that she may be a Celestial, or a dark Celestial is possible still. If she is, we have some insight into how to become a Celestial and what they were. But I do not want to jump to conclusions just yet and still hope for Abeloth to not be a Celestial, at best one gone dark, but not exemplary for all of them.
I love to keep Celestials amongst other things mysterious, since mystery is cool and fuels out thought processes much more than answers do (see LOST ).


Old Ones: I am not sure if we should label them synonymous with Celestials or not. Inuniverse people will, but out of universe pov might keep it vague I hope. Lovecraftian Old Ones I would love indeed


a general theory:

since many fans till love powerful mighty ancient Sith

 

Okay, Precursors, Precursors. And cosmic horrors.

The Pool of Knowledge apparently mutates you into something. The implication is that it turns you into a Celestial. (At least judging by Jacen's comments.) Abeloth knows what it is, and she might very well be a Celestial herself.

Oh, there's speculation that the Keshiri Destructors could be Celestials. If the Sith end up being instrumental in destroying the Celestials...LOL

 

To be fair, I did envoke you by name so the haunting was expected but yes much food for thought

It is interesting to note that we have an interesting arrangement in the galaxy if we take all the ancient races into account. The Kwa and Gree seem to have taken up the galactic north whilst the Rakata came from the west namely the Unknown Regions, the Sharu from the galactic east and Kathol from the south.

I believe it was something like that, though I must confess I am relying a bit more on the Wookieepedia entry on the subject. Would make sense really since if I made something like the Maw (I wish ) I would have some kind of monitoring post nearby to ensure that there was not a breach in containment.

 

the arrangement is indeed interesting


about Kessel and the Maw control system. The loss of security in Abeloths prison has me worried ever since. First back then I thought, wait what, does the whole Maw cluster now dissolve slowly into nothingness as in: soon all black holes will vanish completely? then I hoped this would not be the case and just those black holes around Abeloths planet were affected. Yet if the reason for all is Sinkhole station being destroyed, which originanes with Kessel being taken down by Bogeys (servants of Celestials?) which again is the result of Centerpoint being destroyed, then why should only Abeloths prison be affected and not the whole Maw? Or is Kessel and Sinkhole just 1 of many surveillance stations hidden in and around the Maw and we only know of them so far?

and, was the space pocket Daala used for the Maw Installation originally another such prison which got emptied in the distant past already... like say after the Vultar Cataclysm destroyed the Cosmic turbine? (making this my new pet theory now!)

Centerpoint gone => Kessel affected => Sinkhole station affected => Abeloth freed
Cosmic Turbine destroyed => ... => something else released?

 

Whenever I hear of the Celestials in a SW book, I can't help but think of these guys:

[image=http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-celestials.jpg]

 

I also doubt we will ever get stories surrounding such races except through the eyes of another character. Ideally, novels or even short stories with Corellia Antilles would perhaps be the perfect medium to explore a lot of ancient mysteries like the Celestials and Rakata since thats her job/goal/mission where as characters such as Luke wouldnt necessarily go in depth over such matters. Mostly, they would skim them and making a passing reference to them like the way DN or FotJ has done.

 

Frame stories: Cade Skywalker watches a Holocron made by Ben Skywalker where Ben talks of a newsvid he once had been told about by Tionne in which can be seen Arhul Hextropophon referencing a work by Voren Naal about the exploits of Corellia Antilles discovering the ancient mysterious of...


you get my point, right?


as much as I'd like to see this, they do it so vague it will not stay canon for long without any retcons touching it again and again. I want some more permanent stuff please, like unchangeable facts for a change. the Art of the retcon is nice to solve issues, not to retcon what had not needed a retcon... like DelReys latest hobby where series retcon previous series for no reason.




but why go to the obvious choices when in need of frame stories? we got lots of other cool canidates too:


Anthropologist Hoole
Voren Naal
Arhul Hextoprophon
Corellia Antilles
Tionne
Thrawn researching some ancient art?
Jerec while he still was working for Jocasta Nu searching ancient mysteries?
Jedi Explor Corps which is underused?

 

This is one of the reasons I really, really wish the'd bring back the "Tales from the..." anthologies. Even if they only did one every couple of years it'd be a great addition to the publishing cycle and allow them to explore some new ideas/test the water every now and again.

When it comes to the Celestials, I'd be happy even if all we got was a single 30 page Lovecraftian short-story which raised more questions than it answered and spent the entire time never really showing us anything, but it'd still be great just to get even an impressionistic insight into whatever battle went down between the Celestials and the Rakata or whatever did or did not happen.

Heck, DHC could bring back Tales for the same purpose. Without the RPG now either, there's nothing anymore to delve however lightly into the esoteric.

 

I have a bad feeling about this...

first they go all hardcovers, then they cut or let vanish many secondary characters from stories, then nothing is holy anymore and they retcon wildly, and more and more quantity trumps quality...

guess what they are trying to kill the good part of the EU!




but nope, Essential Guides we still got... and they can't take them away, Nooooo!




I like your idea of a lovecraftian tale raising more questions than answers and being all mystery without showing much. LOST comes to my mind there, the best thing that ever tried that approach.

Imagine a bunch of humans and aliens trapped in the conflicts between what to them must look like GODS... tech that is magic to them, the Force unknown to them, interstellar travel a novum for them only when traveling with or transported by the Gods for their purposes. They do understand nothing but see everything and kinda bible-esque they try to find words for what they see but can't really describe it using their simple terminology with metaphors.

Oh I am hooked for that idea! Imagine then this bunch of humans and aliens turning from bystanders trapped in between to an essential part of the conflict leading to the longterm vanishing of the Celestials... but before they can rise to prominence, the Rakata betray all and end up creating their empire enslaving them and others again.

 

You've suddenly made me feel like trying to get JJM to write a prequel to Lost Tribe about the ancient history of Kesh, as experiences through the eyes of the Keshiri's ancestors...

 

In relation to the Kesh prophecy, I'm still waiting to see whether Skyborn sounding somewhat similar to Skywalker is still just a coincidence or not. Assuming FotJ goes into that or not, I have little to no faith left that they'll bother with anything beyond more lightsaber battles and annoying portrayals of politics. Although it seems kind of pointless to discuss this when there's less than a week left until the next book, which will hopefully add more to the mythos hinted at (Abeloth, Celestials, etc.), although I doubt the novels will succeed, but might as well speculate (and I'm still spoiler free, I think).

Anyway, while the Celestials seemingly contained at least several threats, they also had several construction projects too, like the entire Corellian system.

On the one hand Celestials could be advanced beings, although honestly that seems more like a Star Trek thing than Star Wars. Although Abeloth is probably intended to be an Old God analogue, not to mention building a cluster of black holes to isolate her, but its arguable whether the Celestials themselves were highly evolved, or their technology was just extremely advance.

What is clear is that they had extremely advanced tech, at least some of which can be worked by modern societies (after a lot of jury-rigging), Anakin was able to instinctively use some of it, but its hard to tell if that was just his particular Force talent or perhaps the machinery responded to him because of his Force ability.

The Celestials also apparently could manipulate space, setting up hyperspace barriers around threats.

Although mostly I just chalk up the Celestials as the "ancient, long gone civilization" of many fantasies, sorta like the Elves of LotR. While fighting Abeloth is one thing, since fighting old, leftover horrors is also a semi-common thread, I hope they don't go too much into the Celestials. Especially since if they keep delving, then they might try to answer the question of why Celestial civilization declined and they all disappeared.

Its hard to tell what the Pool of Knowledge does really. Its not like Luke's guides were the most reliable source of information (even if they were telling the truth, they might have simply been wrong too). Maybe Abeloth is a fallen Celestial, or the result of an event gone horribly wrong, who knows. Although given what happened to Taalon, that's a very bad sign too.

 

Anyone get a Fringe vibe from this? Peter and the machine? What if the future heroes are the celestials and they send the celestial technology back in time )? OR the celestials exist outside of time? OR the celestials used the Force to see enough of the future to program some of their tech to respond to yet-to-exist people, in service of some unknown goal(s)?

 

Are you trying to suggesting that there is a parallel SW reality in which Luke stole his counterpart, Lukenate's son Ben and created a crack in reality leading to a war between the two sides? Sorry, couldnt resist since I'm a Fringe fan as well

But anyway, back on topic, I don't think it would be like that. And there is that balance between some feeling the topic shouldnt be explored in order to keep the mystery whilst others want to know more. Really, I don't think they should go out and explain every single thing the Celestials did and attribute everything to them but feel that more can be done on that front since they have been popping up a lot now in recent fluff.

 

Fringe & LOST forever!!!
don't we all want Star Wars Continuity Observers?


but I got the same vibes and like them! Would love it since what you are proposing is essentially the cancelled storyline of Robert J. Sawyers Lucasfilm project Alien Chronicles tieing the future with E.T., THX, American Grafitti, etc. to the GFFA and the distant past as in Hutts = Varlians, and shows how humanity arrived there etc.




that said, two more words for discussion: Silentium & Abominor!

 

Well... the Varlians in that storyline were giant insectoids and the Hutts were their young who were trapped in their larvae form.... though I love the name Varlian so wouldnt mind seeing elements of that being introduced into the EU.

Well, those two are certainly ancient as well since they were the cause for the Vong's spiral into an anti-tech crusade so they are older than the Vong at the very least. Plus, they are seemingly extragalactic as well.

 

I remember longing for the threat to the Force in FOTJ being a trapped Abominor.

Interested as I am in the Celestials and the Rakata, I'm just as interested in the ancient war between the Children of Yuuzan'tar and the Reapers - as that's essentially what the Abominor are.

You've got the ancient Yuuzhan Vong priests who were probably in tune with the Force more than nearly everyone else anywhere in the EU, their entire planet alive in the richness of the Living Force, its people one with it... then comes the industrialised automatons built by a fallen race somewhere far beyond, consumed the same way the Reapers' original creators were, harvesting whole worlds to produce ever more machines. It's almost Tolkienian in its "natural world against industrial world" story.

So the Children of Yuuzhan'tar turn to war, inventing Yun-Yammka and embracing the dark side to defeat the Abominor... only for Yuuzhan'tar herself to sever them from the Force for their heresy, stripping every midichlorian from their blood, casting the Vong out for their sins. The Abominor may have been held back... but Yuuzhan'tar was still forever stained... and the Yuuzhan Vong condemned to exist outside the Force's song.

Still, as easy as the Abominor may be to conceptualise... the Silentium scare me more. The Abominor may be your classic Frankenstein/Reapers race of the Machine that turned against its Creator, but the Silentium...? The Silentium strike me as what the Abominor's creators wanted to do: to develop a form of "entechment" comparable to the Ssi-Ruuvi, in order to make themselves "immortal". Vuffi Raa is far too "alive" for a "robot", so I'm inclined to think the Silentium are less like the Reapers and either (a) more like the Geth, i.e. a robot race that achieved independent "sentience", or (b) the product of an ancient race trying to "imprint their minds into machines", making the original Silentium robots that were given their own creator's memories... which makes Vuffi Raa one seriously messed up idea of an actual "child".

 

you brought up some nice elements to the ancient story I not even recognised yet... well done!

Also, the Starfish shaped aliens who created the Silentium need a name so we can list themin the species lists, or is Starfish enough to list them? (though Starfish makes me think of Hitchikers Guides Dolphins whenever I hear it, thx for all the fish!)


I also think the Vong vs. Machines tale as you picture it mirrors well the Jedi vs. Sith conflict:
Sith love warmachines and often are cyborged themselves. Jedi love nature and peace and all life and to fight the Sith they have to use the dark side to a degree. The Jedi's light is diminished by war and fighting, but to protect the innocent and to fight evil they use the dark side whenever they kill or destroy something to prevent/preserve something else. Jedi are true gardeners here and keep this dark side they use balanced by their light intents to not fall to the dark side fully. Kinda like the passive Fallanassi were said to be extreme Lightsiders through passiveness and creation rather than destruction, which is the dark side. Jedi walk the middle ground keeping balance and harmony to not succumb to it while still fighting darkness.



also I wonder for the future...
-technology vs. biotechnology what will win out, both exists? is shaping and using lifeforms better than artificial machines made of stuff taken from nature? (stuff that is lifeless to the eye but still exists in the Force to a degree... as Iron Knights crystals proof who are intelligent, or flowers and trees being intelligent to a degree too as Agricorps Jedi can confirm, they even talk to them!)
-Droid Rights Activists: With the slave revolts and end of slavery in the galaxy (as poorly done as it is in FOTJ; cause tied to the Skywalkers direct legacy would have been better as for Anakin Skywalkers vision) I wonder will droid rights activists one day get the upper hand in the far future? (ps. Note the antislavery stuff is failed by the time of Legacy comi

 

This is an interesting topic, especially in light of the recently released Mortis Trilogy. I enjoy these out of the way races of possible super beings. Here's hoping that Abeloth is in the same league as some of these.

 

speaking of her, I wish we get more backstory on her... why is she evil, what made her that way etc.? I do not want to keep her as the big ultimate evil that needs to be destroyed.

Heck, have Luke not redeem Vestara but redeem Abeloth instead, returning her to be a good Celestial and move on THAT'd be awesome... but unlikely.



Question to all: We know and talked a lot already about the big ancient races and mysteries. How about the neglected, forgotten small instances?

SW Galaxies has some ruins and spikes that might be tied to ancient races or similiar interesting things.
Novels and Comics, Atlas and many other guidebooks feature ancient ruins, hints, myths etc. for some worlds and species that might be discussed here in relation to the ancient powerplay or separate from it. Lets not forget those small things in the light of the big races we mentioned above!

 

Never thought of the Transformers analogy before...

The idea of a droid sentience "virus" spreading has been something I've always thought would be fun though. In a post-futuristic society like the EU, where practically everything is linked up to another machine in some way or another, where your iPhone turns the lights on and sets the timer on the oven, then everything runs the risk of going totally screwballed.

It wouldn't so much be a war against space armadas... but an uprising from within the GFFA itself, occurring everywhere, in everything.

I'd love to see a droid revolt like that, even if it was just a single planet or star system that had gone out of contact, with a team heading there into the communications blackout... to find the organics had become the slaves and the toaster now ruled the household.

You could then have a Silentium scout be at the centre of it all.

 

needn't even be the future, take G0T0 from KOTOR 2 or the Supercomputers of the Galactic Civil War that ran entire planets systems. And pre-KOTOR as well as during we also have the HK-47 and T3-M4 team setting up a droid rebellion if you let them do it ingame. Then there is the cut content of Droid Space full with an entire sector of droids only... wasn't the backstory something like, people sent droids to scout and prepare the world for settlement... and droids took over before settlers came.. and those who came ended up not returning ever






Edit: What if the Silentium and Abominor came from the GFFA to the Vong galaxy? Or did they evolve in the Vong galaxy? Remember, originally the Silentium and Abominor were Vong galaxy originated. Yet since then Vuffi Ra and a Droids robot got retconned into Silentium and Abominor. So how/why/when did they get to the GFFA? Or did they always be there and most of their kind left in the distant past for the Vong galaxy? One may wonder then what techwars and stuff went on back then in the even more ancient ancient past of our GFFA that created these droid species!!!

Let me call it out now: starshaped Starfish species that created the Silentium and vanished... = CELESTIALS they ascended leaving their droid species behind! Or they were destroyed by the Abominor who then were driven out of the GFFA by the Silentium... and then Silentium chasing Abominor to Vong galaxy wrecked that one for thousands of years to come.


PS: there also is an ALIEN / PREDATOR analogy if you are familiar with ancient history of said universe with Aliens being created by some Master species for a megawar in ancient times millions of years ago. Predators are rumored to be another ancient species in that war. etc.