Are the Jedi stupid?

Why do they sit around and let everything happen? Why doesn't Yoda address his concerns to Palpatine or the Senate? They seem to be passively accepting the fate of the Republic. The worst evidence of this is when Yoda leads the Clones in battle. Didn't he know they were ordered by a dead Jedi mysteriously? Don't they see the connection between Jango, the Clones and, finally to Dooku?

The other nagging problem is how they are handling the Sith. Why can ONE Sith cause so much confusing amongst them and are they doing anything to stop the SIth? Are their any plans? Yoda seems to notice Palpy and also Anakin's anger but he never intervenes.

The big question is WHY DO THEY SIT BACK AND LET ALL OF THIS HAPPEN?

 

No.

 

Care to elaborate for us, hawk.





Mace Windy,
too windy for spoilers!

 

Sorry, hit POST before I finished!

 

That is what I figured happened, hawk. If your posts in the TPM forum are any indication, you always have something intelligent to say.

I personally don't believe that the Jedi are stupid, but they certainly are overconfident. Most likely, they have not faced a challenge that they have been able to overcome for a long, long time. (the "extinction" of the SITH) You cannot blame them for foolishly thinking that they have the situation under control. They always have.





Mace Windy,
too windy for spoilers!

 

Why do they sit around and let everything happen? Why doesn't Yoda address his concerns to Palpatine or the Senate?

"If informed the Senate is, multiply our enemies will."

They seem to be passively accepting the fate of the Republic. The worst evidence of this is when Yoda leads the Clones in battle. Didn't he know they were ordered by a dead Jedi mysteriously? Don't they see the connection between Jango, the Clones and, finally to Dooku?

The other option being to let the droid army wage war on the galaxy. Call me crazy, but I think that's a worse option.

And they have no reason to suspect a connection with Jango. He's a bounty hunter; he works for anyone who pays him.

The other nagging problem is how they are handling the Sith. Why can ONE Sith cause so much confusing amongst them

One's the Supreme Chancellor of the whole Republic. And the other is the head of a huge faction of systems and corporations.

and are they doing anything to stop the SIth?

The Jedi are stretched thin as is (mentioned in the opening scroll). And how can you stop an enemy when you don't know where they are or what their plan is?

Are their any plans? Yoda seems to notice Palpy and also Anakin's anger but he never intervenes.

He has a suspicion, a funny feeling, about Palpatine. Not even something clear (like "OMG! A Sith!"), just a vague premonition. Not enough to start throwing around accusations. And all he knows about Anakin is that he experienced "pain...suffering...death", all of which are explained by the death of Shmi. He doesn't know the full extent of what happened.

The big question is WHY DO THEY SIT BACK AND LET ALL OF THIS HAPPEN?

Because the man duping them is the last person they'd suspect. The hardest thing to see is that which is right under your nose.

 

Here's more elaboration:

The Jedi know there is a Bounty Hunter who tried to kill Padme. They trace him to the Clone Army and find out this lowlife is their host. The person who ordered the secret army was killed. Does it seem like a good idea to use the convenient secret army? No!

We then here that the Jedi are aware of the Sith lord just as they were in TPM. When Obi-Wan addresses his concerns, Yoda assumes Dooku is lying. Pretty silly considering they know the Sith Lord is up to something previously. Maybe they can't stop him but maybe it would be nice to see Yoda and Mace construct a plan to track the Sith down. This seems to be important if they can't use their vision during these difficult times.

Lastly, Anakin has become a wildcard. OW addresses his concerns again and Yoda feels Anakin's pain and suspects that he is trouble. They then allow him to take Padme home after all this crap and don't address the issue any further. Even OW doesn't bring it up again. Why let this get out of hand?

 

"Calm... Passive...."

No they arent stupid. I agree with Windy. They probably think everything is cool and if anything goes wrong they can handle it.

Well, for TPM anyway. We do see them panic a little in AOTC, and its because they're "keepers of the peace, not soldiers." They dont want war. So, they are focusing on the problem at hand, just not from the right angle. Once Dooku spills his guts (which they cant even discuss until the end of the movie) they dont know what to think. They just know they have to fight. They dont want to, but they have to.

The Anakin thing seems like an "internal" issue for the Jedi that doesnt get as much attention as it should. I doubt they want to put a lot of focus on the whole "chosen one" thing and Obi-Wan doesnt want to say, "Hey! I cant handle this!"
I'm sure the moment where Obi-Wan & Yoda look at each other and say, "OMG we made a huge mistake." will be in Episode 3.

 

-we have the advantage of knowing everything (pretty much) that the jedi do not, like who palpatine really is and the like. and of course there is the fact that if the jedi knew everything, we have no clone wars, and no movies. that aside, yoda, possibly the wisest jedi of his era, and mace, not too shabby himself, come to the conclusion that the dark side is clouding their judgement and shrouding events. that is one of the powers of the dark side, to deceive.
-what i never really understood is how palpatine masks his presence from yoda and mace. i know what i just said before, but those two are very perceptive and wise. i guess palpatine is really that powerful.
-the jedi have for the most part grown complacent with themselves. ki-adi says that dooku isn't capable of the very things he does in the end. i wouldn't say that they are overconfident, but you would think that with the sith on the loose that they would be a bit more open to things and looking at shadows that move so to speak.
-while no jedi have for the most part contact with the sith (at least overtly) and perhaps underestimate their opponents, you should think that they would have some sense of what is going on. after all, they know that the dark side is in action. with that knowledge, they should say to themselves, gee, the sith have risen again after a 1000 years, and there is a civil war about to break out. could there possibly be a connection?
-while the republic has been getting weaker for quite some time, the dark side definitely has been weakening it. that's what it does. it lurks in the shadows, and uses others to do its bidding.
-the jedi are not stupid as a whole, they just have no idea what they are in store for.
-it must also be remembered that the jedi are not the republic, they merely serve it at the graces of the republic.

 

Yeah,basicly the key to this is

The dark side of the force had clouded there vision my friend [/b]~Dooku

Our ability to use the force had deminished ~Mace

It's just hard for them to function with the darkside around them so much.


what i never really understood is how palpatine masks his presence from yoda and mace. i know what i just said before, but those two are very perceptive and wise. i guess palpatine is really that powerful.

Palpatine can mask it so well,that all the Jedi can feel from him is a "void" I'm pretty sure it said this in the AOTC novel.I think it says that they can't feel good or bad in him,like I said just a "void".

 

Hi hawk,

>>>>Why do they sit around and let everything happen? Why doesn't Yoda address his concerns to Palpatine or the Senate? They seem to be passively accepting the fate of the Republic.

Well, one of the opening scenes is of the Jedi Council and Palpatine discussing their concerns?
The bottom line is that I don't think the role of the Jedi is to hold the Republic together- if some planets want to leave, then surely that's their own decision. The Jedi are responsible for keeping the peace in the Republic.
The problem (from the POV of the Jedi) isn't that the Seperatists are leaving the Republic, but the unrest that is caused by it (as the opening crawl says), and later on in the film, the fact that they are planning to use their combined military power to force the Republic to accept their demands.

At the start of the film, the Jedi are making it clear that they simply can?t fight a war- apart from their limited numbers, they aren?t soldiers. By the time they discover the droid army, this has become even more clear.

>>>>The worst evidence of this is when Yoda leads the Clones in battle. Didn't he know they were ordered by a dead Jedi mysteriously? Don't they see the connection between Jango, the Clones and, finally to Dooku?

Sure, but I don?t think you?re really considering the alternatives that were open;

a) Ignore the threat of the huge droid army they have discovered. Wait for them to attack the Republic. Get overwhelmed.
b) Send in all the Jedi available (which they did) to get overwhelmed by the droid army without any form of support.
c) Send in all the Jedi available, and use the mysterious new clone army that's just been dropped into your lap as support.

So it?s not as if the alternatives were any more appealing. The whole point of the PT is that when good and evil are mixed, everything is shades of grey. That something isn?t ?good? just because it?s less evil than something else. The central point of this particular film is that the Jedi are getting dragged into this battle, and the ?attack of the clones? is obviously the decisive moment from which there was no turning back.

That said, I don't understand what is wrong (from Yoda's POV) with using a clone army, just because the bounty hunter they were cloned from is associated with the Seperatists? The clones aren?t Jango Fett, and aren?t themselves associated with Dooku.

>>>>The other nagging problem is how they are handling the Sith. Why can ONE Sith cause so much confusing amongst them and are they doing anything to stop the SIth? Are their any plans?

All the Jedi know about the Sith is that they aren't extinct. Meanwhile, the Sith have been gradually weakening the Jedi's ability to use the Force. Because it?s gradual, the Jedi don?t see it?s happening, can?t tell where it?s coming from, and therefore can?t react to it. (Ever heard the story of the frog and the boiling water?)

My understanding of why/how this happens is illustrated by the Jedi Archives subplot- basically, the archives are analagous to the Force. Just as the librarian has become overconfident in her Archives, to the point where ?if it does not appear in the archives, it does not exist?, the Jedi have become overconfident in their abilities with the Force. If events were to unfold naturally, then they would be clear through the Force.

However, if someone (ie. a Sith) were aware of how things are supposed to unfold and then used this knowledge to change the future, then what would actually transpire would be altered; so what would be seen through the Force would no longer correspond to reality, but without seeing the reality, there would be no way to know it until they knew what they were looking for- which before, they knew through the Force?

Likewise, through the Archives, it seems that there is no Kamino. However, once Obi Wan knows (from Dex) that Kamino exists, and where to look for it, he can tell that there is evidence that it exists, through gravity's sillhouette (an unusual but clearly significant choice of words b

 

Why, you might even say that their overconfidence is their weakness!





Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Why, you might even say that their overconfidence is their weakness!





Rick McCallum loves you!

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

 

I think one of the major problems the Jedi have is that they have become institutionalized. Yoda and Mace are especially hamstrung in their thinking.

 

>>>Why, you might even say that their overconfidence is their weakness!

Such a good comment, it was worth saying twice!

 

I think for the Jedi it was their inability to think "out of the box". Palpatine is manipulating so many things, the Jedi being on the good side of the Force have a natural "block", as they are playing it safe by not taking any risks.

They look much into the future, looking for clues, instead of in the now and looking for it there and then. Again, I think it is playing safe, when they are in principle, sticking to what they deem as the proper thing to do. I think a risk taker such as Qui Gon if he were still alive, could have stopped Palpatine before more damage was done.

 

I don't see how Qui Gon would have been any better off. I mean, the whole deal about the Dark Side clouding the Jedi's vision is that the Jedi are being forced into the same point of view as Qui Gon- the difference being that Qui Gon chose not to be mindful of the future; the Jedi don't have that luxury.

And remember, Qui Gon's the cheating, stealing smartass who thought it would be a good idea to train Anakin. Every time we see Qui Gon using the Force, it's in a morally dubious circumstance- doing something bad with the goal of achieving a greater good. (Note that we still don't know what Dooku's goals are...)

It's easy to say "the Jedi should have been in the now, looking for clues there and then", but that's overlooking the simple fact that the only clues that the Sith did leave, the Jedi picked up on. The deleted planet in the archives, the bounty hunter's trail etc.

Also, remember that the Jedi do take a risk in using the Clone Army- one which I think it's safe to say will lead to their downfall.

 

Some good thing have already been said. But just to back up waht Scott said.

The worst evidence of this is when Yoda leads the Clones in battle. Didn't he know they were ordered by a dead Jedi mysteriously? Don't they see the connection between Jango, the Clones and, finally to Dooku?

Well like Scott said they could sit and wait for the Droid army to attack. But that's a really bad idea.

They could go it alone liek scott said. But Anakin, Padme, Obi-wan, and Mace would all be dead. Yoda would still be alive but what would be the point of the rest of the movies then.

Or they coudl use the army to fight back and ask about it when all is said in done. Form what we know happens to them that won't be happening but still.

 

"Why do they sit around and let everything happen? Why doesn't Yoda address his concerns to Palpatine or the Senate?"

Multiply our enemies will. If Yoda or Mace announced that hey we're not quite so very powerful their mystique and reputation would be blown, and they wouldn't be able to say "This is Jedi business, go back to your drinks." Like Anakin in the sprots bar. No if they told the senate all the would be tough-guys upon seeing a guy with a laser sword on his belt would be forcing them into pointless battles. Silence was the better option.


"They seem to be passively accepting the fate of the Republic. The worst evidence of this is when Yoda leads the Clones in battle."

What fate? They don't know that the Republic that's endured a thousand years is about to be replaced by the Empire.
They don't know that the clones are a key step in that process.
All they know is that to save those Jedi on Geonosis they needed backup.
Everyone else explained the other reasons Yoda used the clones.

"Didn't he know they were ordered by a dead Jedi mysteriously?"

Yes they do.

"Don't they see the connection between Jango, the Clones and, finally to Dooku?"

To Jango and the clones, yes.
To Jango and Dooku, obviously, since Jango was pretty much Dooku's bodygaurd at Geonosis
To the clones to Dooku, suspicious of the coincidence probably, but the Jedi way is not suspicion, but trust: trust that the answer will come, that everything will turn out alright in the end as it has always done for them before-generally speaking.
Suspicion isn't part of their nature, it comes from fear, ignorance, and distrust; obviously not the qualities encouraged in Jedi. They trust to truth upon meditation of the force, it's just that the darkside's got that rigged right now.

"The other nagging problem is how they are handling the Sith."

Read up on SW history-the essential chronology-throughout remembrence the Sith have reemerged formed a new brotherhood of dark-side weilding bullies and attacked out in the open, overtly only to be beaten to the point of extinction by the Jedi again and again.
It's just that this latest incarnation of the Sith has finally wised up on the whole flaw in their strategy. No, this time they're doing their attacking covertly, behind the scenes, not showing themselves. The sith aren't doing their thing the way the Jedi have come to expect them to do. So naturally the Jedi are a little unsure of what they should do next.

"Why can ONE Sith cause so much confusing amongst them and are they doing anything to stop the SIth? Are their any plans?"

One Sith in a key position of power. One sith who's obviously quite adept at manipulating people.
Plans to stop the sith? How about this one...Dooku is the only Sithlord they can be certain of so they plan to first stop his little insurrection, catch him, and ask him some very tough questions about his master.
I have to admit though I was surprised that they didn't question Gunray after Ep I.

"Yoda seems to notice Palpy and also Anakin's anger but he never intervenes."

Yoda notices Anakin's anger, but doesn't know the circumstances of it, and it is customary to leave those matters for the padawan's master to deal with. He'll probably tell Obi-wan to emphasize teaching Anakin to remain calm at all times...but with the war and every Jedi being needed so badly that emphasis probably won't have the time to be emphasized very much.
As for noticing Palpy's anger...when? where?
Do you mean in the Chancellor's office when Yoda looks dubiously at Palps...if so you're clearly telepathic now.
I mean how do we know for certain he wasn't wondering whether Palps wears shoulder pads to make him look more impressive as Chancellor.

"The big question is WHY DO THEY SIT BACK AND LET ALL OF THIS HAPPEN?"

What else is there to do? They're currently pursuing the only lead they can be certain of...Dooku.
And I'd bet they have Jocasta Nu scouring the Archives to find who and how someone deleted information from their own base of operations-prob

 

I think that MANY of the jedi are not very useful, as they like to sit around and debate, never really doing anything of real substance until they are forced to (rescuing obi and ani from Geonosis). They are like some of the professors at the liberal arts school that I attended. Everything is theories and fantasy stuff, not being applicable to many real situations.

 

What makes you think that?

 

No, only a specific Jedi is stupid...but not all of them...

 

well,I shouldnt say stupid....he's a FILTHY, EVIL, MEAN "Jedi". And I bet noone can guess who it is...

 

well,I shouldnt say stupid....he's a FILTHY, EVIL, MEAN "Jedi". And I bet noone can guess who it is...

Hmmm... Anakin?