Black Sword Command and the Black Fleet - An Old Can of Worms - Blame beccatoria!

Sinrebirth:

A "shield from the Fleet Junkies"? Do you really think that any fleet related topic would cause you to be thrown under the guns of our diverse fleet?

I offer you the protection of my own personal battle fleet. This is is an interesting topic and one that should generate some interesting ideas.

As for the SSD Aramadia... Not the finest example of an author doing his research.

--Adm. Nick

 

I'm no Fleet Junkie, but I always thought the numbers of Black Sword Command were inflated. I mean, not even Death Squadron had 3 SSD's.

However, I can help you out with the EX-F. One of the books, I believe it was either BTS or SOL, calls it a "weapons and propulsion systems testbed mounted on a Dreadnaught hull," or words to that effect.

 

Dude! Thank you for the plug!

I don't actually have anything here to help you because...I'm not a Fleet Junkie and trying to be one makes me want to stab myself in the eye. Which isn't intended as a jab at you fine Fleet Junkies out there, CONTINUITY NEEDS YOU!, it's just that my brain isn't built to understand it...

But since you mentioned me in the thread topic, I felt it would be bad form not to show up, say that I will be reading this thread with interest as an observer, and thank you for the plug! BFC discussion should be gearing up again with book 2 in July and obviously anything specifically pertaining to Shield of Lies is more than a welcome topic for that thread too.

*makes efforts to understand complexities of Fleet Junkiehood*

 

Becca:

Lesson #1 about Fleet Junkies- we are a diverse bunch who have varied opinions. Minimalists and Maximalists. Rebels and Imperials. Lumpy warships and wedge-shaped warships. Stats guys and shape guys. Those who like the science of warships and those who like the art of them. Those that...

Diverse.

But, when we are are respectful and civil, we have had some amazing discussions. I can't tell you how many times we have had spirited discussions in the various incarnations of our home thread. People love to point out the feared SSD Wars, but those instances are few and far in between.

--Adm. Nick

 

I just read that. My goodness. *rubs temples* Is it really asking too much for the people over at WotC to give some considerations to reality in their quest to remake canon into what they want? They landed it on the surface of the planet? And the planet has a diameter of only 9500 km? The horizon would only be about 4.3 km. You wouldn't be able to place most ships there - even placing the Lusankya required burying it. That's about the only option here - bury most of the craft, use support struts for the prow. Of course, that ignore the sheer idiocy of the act (you don't give a freaking starship to the guys who have shown they are a berserker civilization) and the fact that canonically the Yevetha were kept basically under lock and key until the NR got distracted by the Vong, and then the Vong glassed them.

Plus gravity would be only 76% that of earth.

It is rather nonsensical to have 57 star destroyers. Star cruisers makes much more sense. A Grand Admiral's command was basically suppossed to be able to go anywhere and topple anyone else's without breaking a sweat, including the other Great Powers. You may want to look at "Rattling the Sabre" on Domis Publica. It has a rather excellent breakdown of how oversectors and roving commands operated.

the 5th fleet doesn't mean there are only 5 fleets. Command regions are independent of fleet size and strength. Further, the NR just got badly mauled in Shadowhand and favors a decentralized sector strong, federal weak approach.

Plus you may want to think of it as 44 WMDs running around loose - a star destroyer or greater can execute aBDZ without more then a trivial expenditure of effort.

Incorrect quote. It was nothing smaller then a Victory class. Which is why the EX-F is the source for the term star dreadnaught - it was a dreadnaught that was not a dreadnought class heavy cruiser/star frigate. The interdictor in the capture sequence is likely a Dominator subtype of the Imperial class, or the EX-F is equipped with gravity well generators (quite possible given its testbed role)

A possibility, though it could also be that the corvette was not part of the black fleet, but assigned to the shipyards.

With the caveat that at that time SSD meant

 

Is 3 Superstars really that bad? Okay, in what way are they bad?

 

Actually, I'd like to play the Devil's Advocate here Sinrebirth (or is it Sith's Advocate);

Black Fleet Crisis helps actually establish something that I think is being played upon in Order 66 and other Traviss sources and that's the fact that the Fleet numbers given by Emperor Palpatine and various soruces are as accurate as a Stalinist textbook. Just like the Clones at Kamino were only a small fraction of the Emperor's total clone forces, so is it likely that there were many "Lost Fleets."

Allow me to illustrate....

1. Admiral Daala's Maw Fleet: 4 Imperial-1 class Star Destroyers commanded by Admiral Daala. An autonomous Phantom Fleet that had no command with Imperial High Command since they only sent out the occasional probes to undisclosed locations with updated scientific data but received nothing back in return. While it's possible Admiral Daala's command is marked on the books, Admiral Daala's thought bubbles seem to indicate she's actually a secret promotion like Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Were her ships marked as MIA or were they simply erased? Or did they have a dummy assignment.

2. The Empire of the Hand: According to Timmy Zahn's earlier notes, Admiral Thrawn had only one ISD while on a mapping expedition. By VOTF, this had changed to a massive Secret Empire covering most of the Unknown Regions and almost certainly containing a far greater amount of ships than one mere Star Destroyer.

Like with Daala, were these ships never on the registry?

3. The Lusunkya: Ysanne Isard demonstrates a neat little trick by having the "other" Executor.

4. Byss: Emperor Palpatine was quietly funneling goodness knows how many ships to Byss during the entire period after his resurrection. In the chaos after Emperor Palpatine's death, the majority of these ships might have been assumed to be destroyed by either the Rebellion or through warlordism.

 

In no way are they bad, given the fleet assests available to average Moffs and Sector Commanders during the height of the Empire, which was multiple SSDs or torpedo spheres (barring the four 1,9km spheres, I assume). (CTD, DESB etc.)

The Black Sword Command was meant to be an Oversector or regional force that would defend the Empire's rim sections. I may have misunderstood, but since it was stationed in the Core, doesn't that mean it would defend the "top" and "bottom" of the galactic plane? Or was it meant to be launched towards the Outer Rim Territories is necessary? In which case, I assume that would make it part of the 10% of the Imperial Navy being kept in reserve in the Core for such occasions (SWSB).

Well, the Executor could apparantly land or at least hover in an atmosphere in Marvel 63: The Mind Spider. Since the Aramadia appears to be a much smaller ship, given its illustration on the map, it's conceivable they found some room for it. Just look at those core ships in AOTC, multiple kilometers of starships sitting on Geonosis just fine. And those were active vessels, not museums. The less said about the Republic allowing this towing from Byss to N'zoth, the better.

The Executor itself was called a dreadnaught as early as Darth Vader Strikes.

 

Dammit, I keep trying to make this long post, but the board refuses to let me. Don't know if its the board, or just my computer. Never mind, every time I try to make that long post, the thing just times out or something.

 

Quick question: Is it known just what happened to Intimidator after she disappeared? All wookiepedia says is that she was found adrift and severely damaged in the UR in 21 ABY.

 

Not really. At the end of the trilogy, the Intimidator and the rest of the Imperial ships head for Byss, but of course they only find the debris, as its all over eventually. The fleet splits at that point, with some joining Pellaeon's forces, and the Intimidator just vanishes, only to turn up years later somewhere in the Unknown Regions, damaged beyond repair, according to the Essential Chronology (I think it was the first one, not the New one). Though the book speculated that the Empire of the Hand had used the ship, and that's how it had gotten wrecked.

And damn, this topic (or maybe its the boards) still won't let me make a long post.

 

Man, damaged beyond repair.

I wonder the fang did that to something that size.

 

We don't know the size of the planet though, and IIRC they had to make special preperations for the landing - likely erecting something to allow the ship to land despite its length relative to the horizon.

GIve the portrayal, it is conceivable that like I said, they buried most of it and we only see the above ground versions of it. Otherwise it may be comparable to the Shockwave which should have been a kind of star dreadnaught.

The coreships were only 696 meters in diameter.

Given that the Lusankya required a special grav-lift couch to leave Coruscant, I guess it might be possible that they buried it under millions of tons of soil and it couldn't get out. Still absolutely stupid though.

Huh, I thought this was the source

Why can't you comment per se? It is simple enough math to run the numbers.

The Hapans yes, but against the Kuatis or Corellians? 3 Corellian star dreadnaughts held off the entire Hapan fleet. Frankly the Hapans are to small to really be much of a concern. They should be a factor because of their placement in the galaxy, but most cartographers dismiss the fact that Dathomir and the other planets were practically next door neighbors to Coruscant and instead try to make it out that their fleet can match one with thousands more worlds to draw upon for resources.

When I siad sector fleets I meant fleets owned and operated by the sector, not federal fleets in each sector. The NR did not keep the Empires policy of a strong executive branch. But the assertion that local fleets do not exist is false. The Camaas crisis showed they were being used to pursue tradtional hatreds, and other instances like the Death Seed plot, Kueller's terrorism, and even the BFC series itself show local defense forces were in common use.

I don't know about the EX-F having g

 

This landing field covers several kilometers.

Stupid and potentially dangerous.

According to ROTS:ICS, Grievous supervised the attack from that ship, it wasn't alone.

 

Number of fleets is a poor factor to consider without taking into account the size and power of the fleets.

IIRC the other Hapans are neutralized/flee leaving the Solos watch the dreadnaughts pound the fleet from range when Jacen has them open fire on them.

Camaas had everybody throwing around their own forces, in fact the issue there was the NR trying to stop those forces from ripping out eachothers throats. Death Seed had Loronar forces aiding the Moff to get the crystals. Kueller had those 3 Victorys. BFC had Plat flying local defense TIEs similar to how Naboo had its own stuff.

Where was that, CTD?

Same issues follow - base command and fleet command are typically different, but we don't know the exact situation.

This landing field covers several kilometers.[/quote]Yes, but how does that deal with my point? They can't land a ship bigger then the horizon on the ground of a planet.

It says he supervised, but it doesn't say any other ships were involved. As Supreme Commander, he is not in direct command of the ship, its CO is. His presence would be supervising its operations, not commanding.

 

Sinrebirth, actually, according to Truce at Bakura the Rebs lost 20% of their forces at Endor, not 80 as you said way above. Sure that's what Ackie said...