Can I state as fact, that DE Clone Palpatine is exactly the same person as the original?

Well I am & I challenge anyone to use sources to prove it wrong.

The only time when clones were not the people that they were cloned from, is when the GAR was created from the tissue of Jango Fett. The clones did not get a memory transferrence from Jango & their genome/DNA were altered from the original.

Every other clone except for Luuke, AFAIK, recieved an electronic memory transferrence or like the Emperor used a Sith trick to do basically the same thing. Bevel Lemelisk was cloned many times & with his memory intact created many more weapons for the Empire & Hutts, his clones had all of the same personality tics as the original & he remembered all of his life experiences including what happened to him each time he died. Jor'uus C'boath's mad clone, was no more madder than the original as we found out in Outboaund Flight, only showed a slight mental deterioration caused by imperfections in the Spartii Cloning process. He was still Jor'us C'boath, the only difference anyone would notice if they knew him before he was killed & cloned is that he had been seduced by the Darkside of the force.

Some people may find ways to question if Lemelisk & C'boath were exactly the same person as the originals cause they do not understand the premise of memory transferrence technology or they're under the impression that since there was no SOUL/SPIRIT/ETC. transferred then that means the clones are just copies that aren't even human, they're nothing more than flesh droids. If I person recieved enough head damage that they lost all of their memory, then are they anymore a real person than the mindless clone body waiting to have memory transferred into it, or a clone Grodin Tierce who has the originals memories & has been operating in place of the original for years to try & fool the galaxy into thinking that Grand Admiral Thrawn is back?

DE Cloned Emperor used Sith magick to transfer his mind & dark spirit into his clone bodies stored on Byss, even one time he hitched a ride in the mind of one of his Hands, Jeng Droga. He didn't rely on technology to do it, he simply burned out whatever lingering consciousness resided in the brain of the body he wanted to take, filled the mind up of himself & lived again as an immortal. He was going to tear Anakin Solo's mind apart in order to take over his body & probably split his spirit into Leia's mind as well, to bend her will as his own ensuring that he survived childhood in the most powerful body ever.

The clones of Palpatine are not like the GAR clonetroopers, they are not someone else, they are not Godless flesh droids. That's a fact!

 

No. One of the LotF books has Luke talking about how he's merely a shell of Palpatine, or something like that. Reference anyone?

 

No, Lumiya was full of sith.

I'll take the actual sources, in which we can *see* Palpatines Immortal Soul hopping from body to body.

 

He's the same bloke. It's officially known he soul transfers into the new body, dispossessing the current soul. Skywalker's and anyone else's opnion is just their opinion.

 

Wrong! That's not a good look. I expected that answer & another: Tionne Solosur's opinion that the Emperor's clones believed themselves to be the real Palpatine, but both Luke & Tionne are stating opinions, IU opinions. They know nothing of the Sith alchemy or power that lets a Master send their spirit into other bodies, they know nothing of the secrets Darth Plagius found in seeking immortality & neither of them knows enough about Palpatine as a person to tell if the cloned Emperor is any different from the original. They want to believe he isn't, but belief even from the Jedi, doesn't make it true.

 

Is he the same soul? yes.



Is he the same person? I think dying and then traveling as a spirit through space to force yourself into a cloned younger self that will begin to fall apart from your evil . . . hasn´t made his psyche any healthier.

 

I don't mean to be so confrontational in making this post & stating as fact that the cloned Emperor is as real as Senator Palpatine of Naboo. It's just that whenever he's brought up, there are a number of posters here that say he was a fake either cause he's acting too crazy to really be the Palpatine they remember or that he's a clone & a clone isn't real so Palpatine is long dead with some impostors taking his place. The last happened to Thrawn, a paid actor was pretending to be him, but there's still rumored to be a clone of Thrawn in stasis somewhere in the Unknown Regions.

I'd love for it to be officially accepted in canon that the cloned Emperor is the real Palpatine, free of the constraints of hiding as a Sith & desperate to transfer to a body that'll hold his consciousness without burning out too quickly, he is finally showing his true self & the full extent of his mastery of the Darkside to the GFFA. He thinks himself a God & he's finally acting like it.

 

Let's get clear on a couple things first. There is no distinction between Palpatine and the person "of" Palpatine. No one is distinct from the person that one is. In other words, the relation between someone and the person that that someone is is strict, numerical identity.
Second, in the Star Wars universe, persons are immaterial souls ("Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter") which are embodied but not identical to their material bodies, so there's no need to discuss materialist accounts of persons here, or accounts according to which persons are not substances but rather events or processes or sets of experiences or "software in a flesh machine," etc. (although whether an immaterial entity can be spatially located and visible is debated by philosophers). This means that Palpatine is strictly numerically identical to the person Palpatine is, who is strictly numerically identical to Palpatine's soul.
So, since Palpatine's soul is successively transferred from clone to clone, Palpatine survives death in successive clone bodies (i.e., when Luke is talking to his Sith master, he really is talking to Palpatine, not a clone duplicate). Since Jango's and Jorus's souls are not transferred to their clones after death, the GAR clones and Joruus are not the same people as their clone duplicates.

 

I don't think it was the same. I can be cloned but that clone will never be me by virtue of experience, including physical memory which becomes part of your psychological make up. The clone didn't experience Palpatine's brutal childhood. Not physically or mentally. The enteric body may carry memories but they aren't as concrete, so no, definitely not.


I'd love for it to be officially accepted in canon that the cloned Emperor is the real Palpatine, free of the constraints of hiding as a Sith & desperate to transfer to a body that'll hold his consciousness without burning out too quickly, he is finally showing his true self & the full extent of his mastery of the Darkside to the GFFA. He thinks himself a God & he's finally acting like it.

If he were that "godlike" he'd not need a body and become a being of pure energy. Why have an easily corrupt body? Because he still needs midichlorians which proves he isn't all powerful, though very powerful but I think "jumped the shark powerful". Really, it's silly. As an entity, like Exar Kun, he'd have much more power. But we may know his ultimate weakness, the pleasures of the flesh, but that wasn't what drove Palpatine, it's playing games, making people jump through hoops. What better way to do such is there but to be a Wraith?

 

I don't think we see any sign of that with the Clone itself. If the Emperor were to have entered Anakin Solo's body, he'd be exactly the same person. Admittedly, behaving a great deal like Stewie Griffon and not having full control of his bowels but otherwise would be the same person because the brain would presumably change to accommodate all of his memories.

It's important to remember we're dealing with magic here.

 

Wouldn't he in a baby's body eventually forget who he was? Its not like he's jumping into an altered adult clone that has no mind, he'd basically be restarting with an infant brain once he 'reconnects.' He'd have the mental capacities of an infant, and the helplessness of an infant. He wouldn't even be able to eat solid foods.

 

Again, y'all are ignoring the fact that Palpatine, like everyone else, is an immaterial soul. Whether or not he would retain his memories upon becoming re-embodied in a clone or in Anakin is irrelevant (that is only relevant to views which say that persons are sets of mental events, or long-lived mental processes or something like that, rather than the things which have those experiences, or endure through those mental processes; Star Wars is a substance dualist universe). If he becomes embodied in Anakin's or a clone's body, then he, Palpatine is embodied in that body. If he loses his memories, well that sucks, but he is missing his memories, not someone else that pops into existence ex nihilo and replaces him the moment the memories are lost.

Edit: Oops, forgot to mention that yes, he would have a new brain if he entered a clone's or Anakin's body. Again, this is irrelevant to personal identity. Brains are just more of that "crude matter," not the "luminous being" that Palpatine (and everyone else) is.

 

I believe that Charlemange19 answered as I would've your doubt about the clone not being the Emperor. The clone knew everything that Palpatine has ever known & that is just based on Sith mind transferrence. The Sith technique would be more complete than any kind of memory transfer machine, but even just using that Bevel Lemelisk knows how he was killed each time, what his favorite foods are & how much simpler his life was when he was younger.

So why doesn't Palpatine exist as a Wraith instead of going for Anakin Solo's body? I'd guess that Exar Kun charged up for 4000 years like the Energizer bunny so that his spirit could loom over the Jedi students at Yavin & shout down to them about how powerful he is, the whole thing seem energy draining & impractical to me. Besides Darth Nihilus possibly, I don't think any force user good or evil becomes a Godlike being of pure energy. Like Palpatine, or Palpatine did like he, Kun did most of his dirty work as a dark presence in Kyp Durron's body. Maybe it's from Exar Kun that Palpatine found out about & perfected the secrets to immortality.

Palpatine does like to make people jump through hoops, it's why he started using Force Storms in DE, so he could make whole starshipfulls of people jump into hoops of death!

[image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/df/Battle_of_Pinnacle_Base.jpg]

 

That can be memory duped as mentioned earlier, but this was not the case in Palpatine, Palpatine honestly transferred his soul from one body to another and we can SEE it in the comics.

The soul, however, did, and we know it to be the true Palpatine because:

1 - He transferred his soul first into Jeng Droga, whom he took control over.

2 - He visibly moved his dark soul from body to body

3 - Empatojayos Brand died containing his evil soul and preventing it from entering Anakin Solo.

 

Plaristes is so intelligent & I'm glad we're on the same side on this issue, I'd hate to hate to debate against him.

With that, I'd like to recommend to EECHUUTA to watch a movie called, Being John Malkovich, there's this bit about a grown man inhabiting the mind of a newborn with a twist that I think perfectly explains what Palpatine had in mind with Leia's baby.

 

....and I have got your back 100%. I've had it up to here with the deniers of Dark Empire. The Star Wars Universe has had the Sun Crusher, Waru, Otherspace, creatures which exist outside The Force, and THE VIRGIN BIRTH OF ANAKIN SKYWALKER. I fail to see why Palpatine escaping death after being thrown down a simple shaft is something which people can't bring themselves to grasp.

My personal experience is that most of the people who don't believe that Emperor Palpatine was reborn following Endor are Novel-only snobs or people who turn their nose up at Dark Empire and have never even read the graphic novel.

 

The old Force Transfer power lists that "newly dead body" was also possible as a host. Presumably, it would also resurrect. If Palpatine entered a braindead host, he wouldn't become braindead, he'd become perfectly viable. Palpatine as an infant would have the mind of an adult.

Again, try not to think of this with biology but magic.

 

Nonsense, if he forgets everything he forgets. See: The Last Unicorn. If she'd stayed human, she'd embody the human and forget her former identity. 90% of who you are is in your brain. A different brain makes you different. The neuropathways are all new, unprogrammed. The clone was completely unhinged. Not thinking clearly. And Dr. Ball, who was literally a head and lungs, killed Palpatine, by absorbing his energy, but Vader couldn't, and he was much more powerful than Dr. Ball. And Han shot him. This is not the same as the Palpatine that patiently built his Empire on the back of the Republic. That could beat Mace Windu and Yoda.

 

Last I checked, the Last Unicorn is not C-Canon.

That's why Obi-Wan Kenobi & Yoda can come back and converse with Luke on a wide variety of topics despite the fact that their brains have vanished. As Charlemagne has already politely pointed out, the Star Wars universe doesn't operate like our universe.

Technically, as a clone, his brain should be identical, and should be able to be written with data from the old brain like burning a DVD. Of course, none of this really applies to Palpatine, because he transferred his soul.

And apparently, Luke & the entire rest of the Star Wars universe was unhinged as well for believing him, as are everyone who's read Dark Empire and seen the Emperor's soul move from body to body.

Did Vader attempt to trap Palpatine's soul? Did he even know to try to trap Palpatine's soul?

Was that not part of Palpatine's plan to inhabit Anakin Solo?

 

I don't know, I only have the audio drama. I never read the comics.

All I can say is that Palpatine as a clone was a complete moron and good riddance to his sorry butt. I'm glad Luke and LEIA offed him once and for all. Every clone got more and more crazy, and that is in the story also.

I loved the first Dark Empire. It should have ended there, and not have the clone keep coming back. It was lousy story telling. Laughable even, on par with Waru.

Yoda and Obi-wan are special and they are Jedi, not Sith. Whatever Palpatine did, he sure didn't do it right.

 

As a reminder, Palpatine DIED over Endor.

He came back from the dead thanks to Sate Pestage doing a Sith ritual.

If not for Sate Pestage then Palpatine would have stayed dead.

So Vader did 100% kill him.

Like Obi Wan killed Darth Maul.

 

That's good, man. The most common complaint that I've read about Dark Empire is that the reborn Emperor ruined all of Luke & Anakin Skywalker's efforts to destroy the Sith once & for all so that the Prophecy of the Chosen One means nothing. I'd answer that with an old entertainment saying; the show must go on. Return of the Jedi was not a THE END moment for the entirety of Star Wars. The story had to continue, Luke & friends had to keep on fighting evil cause it never dies. Our kids kids will still be able to enjoy Star Wars in some form of media & we should be lucky that it's going to work out that way. While I think DE is one of the top 3 best SW stories ever, even if some hate it, they should be grateful for the books or movies that came out after DE cause if it wasn't for the reborn Emperor or Grand Admiral Thrawn, we wouldn't have the kind of SW that we've got now.

Palpatine has always been the real threat, the Phantom Menace, the legacy of 1000 years of Sith secrecy plotting to bring down the Jedi & rule the galaxy, even dying a few times wasn't going to stop him. He'll fight face to face if he has to & if he does then he'll do it well, but that is not the easiest path to the power he wants. Scheming from the outside, even outside of life as a dark spirit trying to impose his will on the newest descendant of the Chosen One, those are his ways.

 

That's akin to only reading the novelisations of the trilogy, and having never seen the movies.

Indeed. Having to force his way out of the Netherrealm and back into the living every time was drastically damaging Palpatine's essence. I'm not surprised that a couple of round trips to hell would make him go bonkers, especially when they were followed up by possessing flawed clones deliberately damaged by Jax & Company.

I'm a huge fan of Dark Empire, but I think that everyone can admit that Empire's End was a shoddy rush-job which really should have been done better.

True, Sith magics are no substitute for being able to become one with The Force. That doesn't mean that it wasn't the real Palpatine attempting to do what he did.

 

That complaint is only recent, and really ignores the fact that Palpatine in Dark Empire really isn't a Banite Sith anymore: He's a power-mad Darkside sorcerer who thinks he's an undying God. He's got an army of Darkside lackeys. He has no plans of ever having a proper apprentice again because he has no plans of ever being replaced ever.

 

I haven't seen The Last Unicorn, so I can't comment on that. As to your response to my comments, remember that I was talking about strict, numerical identity. Of course Palpatine is different disembodied (he changes from having a body to not having one, after all). And of course he's different when re-embodied (if he takes Anakin's body, then his sensations will be those generated by a child's body). But this is qualitative difference, not strict numerical difference. Consider two "identical" blank sheets of paper. In one perfectly good sense of the word, they are identical. In another perfectly good sense of the word, they are different. What senses? As they share the same qualitative features (the same properties, as we philosophers say), they are said to be qualitatively identical. But of course they are still two distinct pieces of paper. Thus while they are qualitatively identical, they are strictly numerically different (they are two sheets of paper, not one). Consider now a toddler and the man he is 20 years later. They are qualitatively different, as the adult is tall, learned, etc., but the toddler isn't. Nevertheless, they are strictly numerically identical, but "they" are the same person (there's only one thing there, which was a toddler and now is an adult, not two distinct things, one of which vanished from existence and was replaced by something that popped into being as its replacement).
Palpatine, post-resurrection, is qualitatively different from Palpatine pre-death (like a piece of paper that was blank and then later became marked), but "they" are still strictly numerically identical (just one thing which was embodied in the body Vader threw down the shaft, and which later became embodied in a clone body).

Even if the story was lame (and I'm inclined to agree with you that it was), that doesn't mean that Palpatine didn't survive death.

@Tricky:

Thanks for the compliment, although I don't think I'm particularly intelligent. Rather, the metaphysics of persons just happens to be one of the subjects I've studied quite a bit (I'm a graduate student in philosophy specializing in metaphysics).