Can OT Vader still see the future?

He (Anakin) can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait. -- Qui-Gon Jinn

We all know what a huge factor Anakin's nightmare's were in his fall to the Dark Side. It caused him to predict Shmi's death, which led to him convert to the dark side in order to try to save Padme (because he'd had the nightmares about her death too.)

So my question is, how much of a factor did Vader's dreams play in the OT? What types of dreams did he have? Did he dream that he would meet Luke? When he discovered Luke, did he dream that Luke would join him? Did he dream that he and Luke would eventually overthrow the Emperor?

Thoughts?

 

How much of a factor did Vader's dreams play in the OT?

We don't really know what he dreamt, but with his lack of attachments up until discovering his son, and blind devotion to the dark side, he was probably less in tune with his dream-like state. I don't think that Vader would have liked dreaming as it would have brought up painful memories, of the people who he tried to save...but couldn't.

What types of dreams did he have?

Again, we don't really know, but I think they would have been dark and twisted, with grey shapes, and shadows, and voices of people from past and future screaming shouts of warnings mixed with curses that he didn't quite know how to put together. The force would've been trying to teach him compassion subconsciously, but again he would've been too twisted to make sense of it.

Did he dream that he would meet Luke?

Probably not, as I think that finding out that he had a son was quite a surprise to him. I'm sure there was a niggling feeling in the walls of his subconsious, a presence he could feel, but he couldn't quite put his finger on it.

When he discovered Luke, did he dream that Luke would join him? Did he dream that he and Luke would eventually overthrow the Emperor?

 

I think Vader's dreams would've been dark and twisted. The force would've been trying to communicate with him, and tell him the way out of his black hole was through selflessness, but they would have been lost in translation through the dark side. He's unable to decipher the messages he gets now, or rather chooses not to. He's lost a lot of his humanity as Vader, compared to when he was a compassionate young jedi who's dreams were born out of his attachments. Vader has no attachments until he meets Luke, and then his dreams would've been of power and domination. It probably hurts Vader to dream, as it reminds him of those he was unable to save.

 

We don't here Vader talk about visions or dreams, so this is a really difficult question. I'm inclined to say no. I'm sure he had Force visions or dreams, but nothing of true substance or of galactic proportions. It wouldn't have made sense that he had a Force vision as it took him a really long time to help Luke out. The only mention of Vader having dreams, was in the novel Dark Lord, where it says when sleep came to him, he had to go though freakish nightmares about his former life as a Jedi.

Palpatine is the one that reads the future in RotJ, not Vader. It's possible that Vader does not wish to use the power as the last vision we know about is Padme dying, and see where it took him, he'd rather not try to read the future any longer.

 

This one is indeed a dandy.

Qui Gon says specifically it's a jedi trait. Mace and Yoda both claim that the darkside clouds the future and the force. By the OT the darkside dominates the galaxy and the force.

watching the movies, you see that Vader is oblivious to the fact that Luke exists until after sensing him during the BOY and the destruction of the death star. However, Sidious/ The Emporer is somehow still strong enough for premonitions.

"Luke, you can destroy the Emporer. He has foreseen this."- Darth Vader, ESB.

Another one of Lucas's mistakes during the PT to the OT. He needed something to play up Anakin's downfall and to also exagerate the powers of Anakin. In the OT the dreams are never brought up...

 

That's true, Vader nevermentions "foreseeing the future". And I'm sure he'd like to avoid using the power, but can he really just turn the visions on and off?

 

That's a good point, but we know Palpatine is able to "foresee" the future.

Yeah, but how do we explain the fact that Vader can sense Luke in ROTJ, but Palpatine can't.

VADER (after a beat)
My son is with them.

EMPEROR (very cool)
Are you sure?

VADER
I have felt him, my Master.

EMPEROR
Strange, that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader.

There...now I've gone cross-eyed.

GL sure does know how to confuse us, huh?

 

The book Dark Lord claims that Vader no longer had PT-level visions after Mustafar.

On the other hand Luke seems to be developing this ability during ESB.

 

Perhaps he can see the future....

when he brings Luke to the emperor, there is the moment where he stands and appears indecisive....is he picturing his son being destroyed at the hands of the emperor?

 

Interesting thought.

 

That isn't what we're talking about. That's just normal consideration of consequences.

 

I think i gave birth to this question in another thread. anyway, i beleive that Vader still has dreams. he may in fact be lying to luke when he says "the emperor has forseen this." maybe it was he who forsaw it. lies and decete are his way now. Vader is truely conflicted because he also lies to the emperor about luke.

Also, it was implied in the PT that the emperor may have had the power to inject dreams/ nightmares during anakins sleep. if that is true, then maybe he placed dreams of luke dying in vader. there should be a dream sequence in the OT.

 

Great observation! Vader is trying to play both sides against (Luke/Palpatine) just as Palpatine is trying play Vader against his son. We all know Anakin tends to distort the truth to meet his own needs. So perhaps he can still see the future and is indeed lying to both Luke and Palpatine. That would make sense.

That's interesting. Where was it implied that Palaptine can "inject dreams/nightmares"? I never saw that.

 

It's just a theory some people came up with. They're forgetting that Anakin had dreams pre-TPM.

Vader showed no signs of having visions in the OT. Hence Luceno's assumption that he did not.

 

I don't know if I agree with that theory. Luke had dreams of the future as well. So if we subscribe to that theory, then logic would infer that Palpatine was also twisting Luke's dreams. And I don't think that's the case.

I think Vader's dreams/nightmares of the future were derived from his ability to use the force and were completely independent of Palpatine's influence. So that logic would indicate that Vader should be able to have dreams of the future as long as he had the power of the force.

 

In Dark Lord it is written that the ability to see the future has been 'burned out of him'. One might assume that he has lost that ability as he has lost much of his force-power, due to the injuries he sustained on Mustafar. However, I would offer an alternative interpretation: Anakin's visions seem to focus solely on the people he loves - Shmi, Padmé (and in one of Republic comics Obi-Wan), and after Mustafar he doesn't as much lose the ability as he loses people to love. So, I'd say no prophetic dreams - that is, until Luke shows up.

Actually, I find the idea of Vader having dreams of Luke being fried by the Emperor just prior to ROTJ quite interesting... I've used it in fanfics myself.

 

He never thought to give his crystal helmet a rub.

 

I agree with this theory. It's his attatchment and his fear for the people he loves that allows him to see the future and ultimately their fate. After Mustafar he no longer has attatchments or love and therefore nothing to fear.

 

They're forgetting that Anakin had dreams pre-TPM.

good point. I guess it was suggested that the dreams of Padme suffering was induced by palps.

 

That's a really interesting take. I like it. The only issues with that theory is that Anakin could see things before they happened (as Qui-Gon said) while he was podracing. And, naturally, podracing had nothing to do with attachment.

 

This has actually been discussed before, Palpatine didn't give Anakin these dreams, these dreams were the force's way of saying 'hey! Wake the hell up buddy! you keep walking this path you're on, and this is what's gonna happen.' Palpatine had nothing to do with it. He was simply reading Anakin like a book, because Anakin wasn't shielding his thoughts from the Palps. For all Anakin knew, Palps was a kindly old grandfather who happened to be the most powerful man in the galaxy, and he was in favor with this king of kings.

 

I'm sure he can still sense things in the force. He can probably fore see certain events while he's awake. I don't think he has prophetic dreams anymore though. In fact I think if Vader dreamed, those dreams would torture him. So he either puts any dreams out of his mind as soon as he wakes or has found some way of suppressing them entirely.

 

My thoughts at first was it was all about Hoth, but after Hoth, you hear nothing about Palps, and I think that he knows that he had visions, and Luke was far off, soooo......Vader plots a torturous time, hoping that Luke will have a vision just as he did, knowing that just as he did that Luke will come. I look at it this way, cause Vader told Luke something that even Yoda took as a shock that he was Luke's father. Just my 25 cents!

 

Agreed. The last thing Vader wants to do is read into the future. I believe the guy certainly still had the ability -- he is still 80% of the Emperor after all. He became a victim of his inability to read Force invisions, instead of seeing Padme's death as a warning, he saw it as his exact upcoming future.

 

I'm not so sure Vader could suppress the "visions". If Anakin could've suppressed the visions of the future, wouldn't he have done so with his dreams of Padme dying? (or his mom)

I agree. Anakin took his dreams as literal interpretations of the future. But the future is "always in motion" (to quote Yoda) because there are too many variables to really accurately predict how the future will play out.

Ironically, what happened with Anakin and Padme was a self-fullfilled prophecy. Anakin caused Padme's death because of the path he took in order to prevent it.