Lit Can Palpatine really 'foresee' his plans in fruition? Or is he somewhat 'bluffing?'

I came to wondering with reading 'Everything is Proceeding as I had Foreseen' - and being a famous and infamous quote of Palpatine next to 'POWER!' and UNLIMITED POWER and such but in Star Wars and Philosophy More Powerful than You Can Possibly Imagine - there is a section discussing this and that it implies how that Palpatine from TMP to ROTS where he puts his plans in motion and the fact in the EU and the Canon we see how he obtained Power and MORE POWER bit by bit and particularly in the Clone Wars and ofc with help from Darth Plagueis and playing both sides for stupid and 'not giving a Force' about anything but himself and such BUT I was wondering with 'Everything is Proceeding as I have Foreseen...' isn't that abit of a bluff and the fact if Palpatine REALLY could foresee the future - yet he couldn't foresee his death and defeat ... and yet something that Darth Plagueis too in the novel had trouble with due to Darth Tenebrous's intervention just before he really died and such ... I mean surely then we know how we can try to plan but even the best plans have the danger of being threatened by a simple change at times ... and yet Palpatine at times didn't act on some serious mistakes he made both in the EU and Canon and yet he dismissed it and proclaimed how he had foreseen it or orchestrated it and such ...

 

Of course it's a bluff. Sidious isn't the supposedly omniscient Big Bad so many here love to paint him and the films themselves illustrate this.

 

Hello again! Yes I thought so - but I thought I'd get some POV's on this ... and the fact the way I see it - if one has the power of Precognition or being able to 'Foresee' events ... YET the reality being even if you try to change your fate and such or expect something to happen or not happen ... yet things just can't 100% be changed if you know what I mean ... I mean looking at Harry Potter where there was the Prophecy made ... and the fact that one way or another - Harry being the Chosen One would settle it down with Voldemort ...

 

Hello.

That is one thing I dislike about the approach of many here that Purposed or Fated Events equal lack of free will or choice. No, it doesn't.

Foreseeing an event doesn't preclude the possibility that the recipient misinterprets it. All physical beings save One are fallible.

 

Palpatine was very smart, and extremely manipulative, and with good instincts and a great poker sabacc face besides. He always knew how he expected things to go and more often than not was right, because he was that damn good at it. He was also smart enough to have a plan B and C should he be wrong and cover the other eventualities too, and just not let on that this wasn't actually his first choice plan. But he didn't literally force anyone to do anything they didn't choose to do - simply predicted the choice they'd make.

 

look, Sidious is neither overrated or under. He does have massive battle meditation power. The empire fought so well, all of those years because he coordinated the efforts with the force. He is massively powerful and like Jacen Solo, can see the future, and maybe even fix it to a point to his will. But he obviously was not perfect as Luke out manuevered him with love.

 

What has battle-meditation to do with precognition?

And Palpatine did a drop down a reactor-shaft, because for once his ability to read and predict how people (in that case Luke) would act failed him.
He expected Luke to act like a young Anakin (not unreasonable, the former is the son of the later, both recieved their training from Obi-Wan (as far as he knew) and the Bespin-episode has shown, that Luke's emotions can be used against him), especially that with by comparison less training Luke should be much more susceptible to the manipulation of his feelings, especially his fear (of losing his friends) and anger (at his father). Unfortunately Luke didn't give in and even outmanouvered Palpatine by showing Vader an alternative (that if you are doing what is right, death isn't to be feared).

 

He wants you to think he is bluffing. He has foreseen your doubt.

 

Sidious also like to use "Foreseen" and "Planned" interchangably. Luke's "Your overconfidence is your weakness" stinger rings true.

I like the illustration of how Sids really works in Lords of the Sith when:

Spoiler

He tells Vader his actions resulted in 4 deaths. When it turns out that only 3 actually died, he orders the 4th executed in order to make his declaration accurate.

.

Also, "Is that.. Legal?" "I will MAKE IT legal."


That really sums it up.

The more power he has, whether it be money, intel, armies and navies, politicians, assassins, the Force - the Empire in totality - are all tools to make it so when Sidious declares something, there is already a tool set in place to carry out his will. Absolute Power is the ability to declare something, and have it carried out as if he were a God. He has contingency plans upon contingency plans just in case one of his tools decides to rebel, another is already in place to crush it and take its place. Destroying an ineffective force is like trimming his fingernails.

"He became so powerful, the only thing that he was afraid of was losing his power."

This is why I love Luceno's question about Sidious' endgame, and his suggestion is the plan is seeking to reshape the Universe itself in his own image. First gather all power so that nothing in the Universe can stop you, and then seek to change the rules of any limits standing in the way. When all power has been obtained, the next step is to find more means of power to obtain.

Sidious was BSing about "The Sith" ruling the Galaxy again, unless, like the Senate, he saw himself replacing and embodying it.

"I AM the Sith!"

The Sith philosophy was just one tool in his toolbox to use until he had exhausted its usefulness - just like how he sought to learn all he could from Mother Talzin until she became more obnoxious than useful.

I think he duped Vader into becoming a believer in the power of the Sith philosophy (and his role within it, which promised an eventual rise in power over his master) which Sidious had already viewed himself as being far greater than.

I think ultimately, Sidious is the master pragmatic syncretist.

 

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Misinterpretation I will grant you but I always figured once the Fates told you something was the future, that was pretty much it. Anyone trying to alter the future found it was TRYING to change the future that made the original prophecy come true...

 

At the time of their writing Greek tragedies had the same standing as Harry Potter does now, so you just have to wait 2,000 years ... .

 

you just said everything i said. He had his limits, and he failed to out manuever Luke. and i mentioned the ability of Jacen Solo to literally fix the future so that it is not in motion for that person. Palpatine had the same ability. thus precognition.

 

Harry Potter as a series is actually better than you might give it credit for. It started the trend for literary crazes (Twilight, Eragon, generic vampire fluff of the month, Divergence etc etc) but artistically and technically is head and shoulders above the lot of them... though not without flaws.

To keep it back on thread though... Palpatine can't literally control the future. But he's very good indeed at reading people and situations and what with being the Emperor and all he has the resources to outmanoeuvre and outplan just about anybody given time. He didn't even fail with Luke - on the off chance the kid didn't/wouldn't turn he would just fry him and persevere with Skywalker senior. It was Vader who caught him by surprise and even so it was a mutual kill in the end.

 

Harry Potter really is great stuff. The whole series develops from two relatively lighthearted and small-scale adventures at a magical British boarding school in the first two books, Philosopher's Stone (renamed Sorcerer's Stone for release in the US) and The Chamber of Secrets, only to start to grow somewhat darker and larger in the rest of the seven book series starting with Prisoner of Azkaban. The whole series ends up being heavily entrenched in prophecy and tragedy, which becomes most apparent in the final book, The Deathly Hallows.

 

I always figured it was a matter of him seeing the most likely outcome of an event, the "strongest" future, as it were. But "always in motion is the future", and just because an event is likely, even incredibly likely, does not mean it WILL happen. The Emperor could not see or did not take into account the less likely futures, such as the Ewoks spanking his legion of "best troops".

 

I think while Palpatine is legitimately a brilliant chessmaster and mastermind (still the greatest one by far in the Star Wars universe), a lot of his brilliance and ability to foretell and adapt to the future in the prequel era... came from the fact that he was hidden in plain sight (his true nature known only to a few select people, his true agenda to no one else). And that he was, secretly, controlling both sides - Jedi and Sith, Senate and commerce guilds, Republic and Separatists, you name it. It's a lot easier to predict what's going to happen, and to recover from setbacks, when the entire game is basically you playing against yourself.

In the original trilogy, that was no longer the case and he actually had genuine enemies that he could (and did) trick, fool, and manipulate, but not control. So he was never going to be able to own the entire game the way he did in the previous movies.

 

I was thinking this the moment I entered the thread. It almost reads as a Robot Chicken sketch... or do I mean Monty Python?

 

Hmm - wasn't that also pivotal somewhat in the Battle of Endor and for the matter on the 2nd Death Star? Given the fact how in the EU Jedi and Sith can use Battle Meditation to help mediate and guide the outcome of the battles and in particular the practitioner can 'encourage' their allies and boost morale whilst sapping and weakening the enemy's resolve to battle ... given once Palpatine suffered his first death on the Death Star apparently it weakened the Imperial Forces ...

 

Palpatine knew a lot but not everything, summed up best in this scene:

Vader "a small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor"
Palpatine "Yes I know"
Vader "My son is with them"
Palpatine "Are you sure?"

 

I think Palpatine's main weakness was actually his overreliance on his abilities to 'forsee' things. He trusted so much in it that it eventually did him in. And honestly as stated above, if I was Sheev, I would've kept playing the game rather than going out into the open. Being a major Supreme Chancellor/Emperor/Sith Lord means you will have enemies either way, but it's better to have enemies you can control (CIS) than ones you cannot (Rebel Alliance).

 

Well - you know how Palpatine claimed how Darth Plagueis one way or another 'taught him everything he knew about the Force ... even the nature of the Dark Side' ... clearly this is strictly speaking not 100% true eh? Because if Palpatine did learn all of the aspects of the Force - even the Dark Side nature - surely he need not even needed Anakin in the first place to help fulfill the Sith Grand Scheme in the first place eh? I mean he could have just simply be content with Midichlorian Manipulation yet he clearly didn't have 100% all the knowledge about Midichlorian Manipulation and such ... and the fact where in the EU - and the Darth Plagueis novel Darth Plagueis emphasized the importance of trust and why the fact in the Rule of Two it has been met with betrayal and violent ends of the Sith Master and Apprentice - yet Darth Plagueis stated that he and Palpatine should hide no resentments or petty jealousies and such and that they would work together and share all knowledge and secrets for the benefit of the good in the long term and whilst Palpatine would serve under Darth Plagueis for decades yet he had his own ideals and ideas rather than conform to Darth Plagueis's ideals of Darth Plagueis being the Power behind the scenes whilst Palpatine played the Senate and Galactic Politics as puppets ... I mean the fact where Darth Plagueis once said to Palpatine "Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you." but I could not help but wonder ... when this was said to Palpatine when he himself was a Sith Apprentice - I still wonder if there was some weight in those words because it seems whilst it was to psychologically weaken Palpatine so that Darth Plagueis would know his weaknesses it was also meant to perhaps 'toughen him up?' or the fact even if Darth Plagueis claimed how he and Palpatine would run the Rule of Two and carry out the Grand Scheme of Darth Bane - but unlike mindless brute mobs of ancient Sith on Korriban they would do it with more subtle approaches ... perhaps maybe Palpatine didn't always learn 'everything about the Dark Side' from Darth Plagueis? And I'm not saying just Midichlorian Manipulation ...