Can those who are not Force sensitive go to the light and dark sides of the Force?

It is known that Jedi can go to the dark side of the Force, thus betraying their training and using the Force for selfish ends. It is known the Sith advocate use of the dark side. It is known a Force-user who dies while in the dark side experiences madness and chaos for eternity, while Jedi who die in the light transcend this plane of existence.

What of those who do not sense the Force? Is it possible for them to belong to the light or dark side? If not, what limits their action? What makes Wedge Antilles hold back from blasting Kyp Durron's head off? If he did would it make any difference after death? What happens to the people who do not sense the Force?

I suggest that everyone has the Force in them, therefore their acts make them more susceptible to the light or dark. Thus Wedge Antilles is a good man, who acts on his principles and Zekka Thyne an evil murderer. Both will have their nature known in the Force, even if they cannot feel it.

Can those blind to the Force be guided by it? Can anyone be totally Force blind?How does a man like Han Solo seek redemption, perhaps without even knowing it, unless he is influenced by the light side of the Force? Even if it is so, that influence does not rob him of volition, or anyone else, everyone still chooses their acts and after death they are the measure of those acts and why they did them.

This is only my musings on the topic, it seems to be a wide open blind spot in SW that is rarely talked of or addressed. As in Lit we have a greater range of resources to draw on, let us attempt to answer the Q posed and explore the areas we find ourselves in.

Jedi Ben

 

Yet another philisophically debating thread of Jedi Ben's.

Well as you will see in a recent theory of mine, Jedi only manipulate the froce for disposal, every one has it, so yes you can go to the dark side as a regular person.

 

Jedi Ben,
Actually the SWRPG by necessity has addressed this very issue in rather in-depth detail.

After all, "powergaming Munchkins" like nothing more than to be able to blow the hell out of their enemies.

Non-Force-Sensitives are simply "peons" in the grand scheme of Light vs. Dark. Neither side cares for them, and what you end up with is the same thing you end up with in our world - a moral or immoral person.

I'll post some exact comments from the RPG addressing the matter when I can.

 

Its said the Force is within everything. In everyone. So, yes the Force affects everyone, and thus dark and light sides are apart of everyone.

Well, except the Vong.

 

Hmm,

Please do so Genghis. One request: If the info involves use of RPG jargon, can you please translate. I have the Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil etc stuff in mind, it is more than a tad confusing for those of us that go nowhere near RPGs.

If it is as you describe, then what effect would you say that has on SW? Is a Jedi superior to a very morally good person simply by virtue of being a Jedi? Similarly do Sith stand higher say, in the criminal hierarchy, because they use the dark side?

In curiosity,

Jedi Ben

 

An abbreviated version of the RPG post Genghis is likely to give is that there's no concept of alignment, just Force Sensitivity and Force Points. A Force Point being something you can use to perform heroic acts every so often. Every PC has at least one.

If a character is Force Sensitive and trained as a Jedi, there are certain powers (Telekinetic Kill -- "I find your lack of faith disturbing" -- for one) that automatically give you a "Dark Side Point," thus starting your slide into oblivion. If a character is Force Sensitive and NOT trained, the only way to get a Dark Side Point (I believe) is to use your Force Point in a clearly unheroic, evil manner. (this applies to trained characters as well).

However, one of the benefits of being non-Sensitive is that you can do whatever you want and never EVER get Dark Side Points (unless you become Sensitive later). Think Han... he ran Spice, did bad things, but was not Force Sensitive so could never "fall to the Dark Side." Much like Boba Fett... or Jabba... or Grand Admiral Thrawn...

 

My two cents (don't spend them all in one place!):

Lucas has mentioned over and over (in his conversations about Anakin's fall) that people who have control over the force experience good and evil at much more extremes than normal people. Yet they face the same temptations and have the same weaknesses.

From this I've concluded that Jedi are supposed to be exampels for us all, examples for how the republic should run and so forth. Think about it, when the Jedi fell into darkness (the lost 20) so did the Republic but then one could also argue that the same guy was behind each.

The force resides in everyone, people, rocks... even ships as Yoda has stated. It is a symnonm for life. So it matters not whether you can control it or not... you still have the capability of serveing either side. It is (to misqoute Vader) "unavoidable." (Much like the Christian philiosophy that your either a slave to God or a slave to sin.)

Luke told Isolder in "Courtship" that while he may never wield a lightsaber he must always serve the light side. Isolder WAS force sensitive but not too any degree where it'd actually do him any good so what was the point of Luke telling him as much? Because as an example to the rest of the galaxy he felt it in his duty to.

 

One of my favorite scenes in a SW novel had to do with the struggle between light and dark. Remember in I, Jedi when Corran and Luke were debating Luke's teaching about staying away from the dark side?

Corran's view was that there is no firm line between light and dark, for either an average person, or a Jedi, its just more critical when a Jedi goes to the dark side.

Some people are inherently good, and others are inherently bad, with most of the general population falling somewhere in the middle of the two extremes, it goes the same for Jedi.

As for what happens to normal people who "succomb" to the dark side, look at Tarkin in the OT. He is definately an evil man, while he has little affinity to the force.

My take on the Jedi is that their order was set up to promote morality. Much of the Jedi Code has as its basis morality. They took extra steps to ensure that they were good. Children were being taken from their parents at birth so they could be better shaped into something that was morally good. How else can this be explained? The Jedi made their rules to limit the chances of one of their own succombing to outside pressures, and using the dark side, or falling to the trappings that make an ordinary person like Tarkin evil. Power lust, hatred of others, fear of the unknown... The Jedi order was set up to raise those with the potential to have a huge affect on the galaxy at large (i.e. those with the abilty to use the force) to mature in a vacuum where there is little possibility that they will become evil.

Wow, I got a bit off topic there, but my point is that Light/Dark is a moral argument, and force user or not people can fall on either side of that spectrum.

 

The interesting Official Evolution of the Morality of the Force:

In the Beginning:
1. "The Force is everywhere. It is in all things. Some learn its nature and gain mastery of life, thought and matter. Most do not; but even those who do not know of the Force, even those who are skeptical of its existence, still possess it." (SWRPG1ED)
2. Force Use - The Force favored moral heroes. It was not good enough to do something good for oneself. The Force replenished one's "fortune" only when the Force user did something heroic. The Force only allowed one's "fortune pool" to expand by the Force user doing something heroic at a dramatically appropriate time. Note, the Dark Side would help any who called upon it every time at any time. The cost was merely one's soul. The more the Dark Side was called upon, the higher chance the soul was seduced by it.

Force-Sensitivity (SWRPG2EDRE):
1. "Force-sensitive characters feel the pull of both the light and dark. They must be careful not to do evil or they risk being forever corrupted by the Dark Side. Force-sensitive characters cannot be as mercenary as Han Solo is at the beginning of A New Hope. They must be moral, honest and honorable, like Luke and Obi-Wan Kenobi [ed. honest, honorable ? ] or the dark side will dominate them."
2. "Force-sensitive characters receive Dark Side Points any time they commit evil since they are closely attuned to the ways of the Force - both in light and dark sides. Force-sensitive characters must be very careful or they will be consumed by the dark side."

Basically, we have 99% of your question answered. Non-Force-Sensitives may commit all the evil they want and will not inherently take any steps closer to being consumed by the Dark Side. This is not the case with Force-Sensitives. Any evil, they commit, brings them closer to the Dark Side. Any step carries with it the chance for a total seduction/fall.

But, then you can ask "can evil Non-Force-Sensitive people be consumed by the Dark Side?" The answer is yes. But, unlike Force-Sensitives, there is only one way for this to occur...
3. "Characters, Force-sensitive or not, may call upon the Dark Side, especially when angry, aggressive, desperate or otherwise out of balance. The character automatically receives a Dark Side Point..."

Not, for the game mechanics impaired, each Dark Side Point gained carries with it a cumulative chance of total seduction. After about the sixth one, the chance is 100%.

So, the answer is that for Force-sensitives, after about six evil acts, they will be consumed by the Dark Side. For Non-Force-Sensitives, the standards are a bit more stringent - they must seek out the Dark Side and willingly embrace it about six times for complete seduction to occur. They can commit an unlimited amount of evil acts. They can nuke planets, commit genocide, kill innocents in cold blood. As long as they don't intone the Dark Side while doing it, they're "okay."

Note, under each case (FS committing evil or NFS intoning the DS), there's always a chance at the first and later occurances... adding up with each successive one. So, the first chance has about a 16% chance of corruption, the second - 33%, the third - 49%, the fourth - 65%, the fifth - 74%, the sixth - 100%.

Were you able to decipher all of that?

 

The general gist yes. It also confirmed just why I've never been interested in RPG!

To other posters: The replies are appreciated but I really wanted to explore the issue of non-Force users, as opposed to Force sensitives/Jedi/Sith/Dark Jedi as that's been done. Genghis has given one account of how the forceblind are seen, in SW RPG: Are there other accounts? If not, what consequences does the RPG position have for morality in SW? Does the Force have to be the central basis of morality in SW? It may have been proposed to be in the films, but does it have to be?

In curiosity

Jedi Ben

 

Only the master, George Lucas, can really shwed light on any of this discussion...

 

It seems to me that the Force is thing in and of itself. While the mitochlorians give everything in the GFFA life, "they" are generally unconcerned with morality and such. Moreover, I think the question of a SW "afterlife" is as beyond answering here as in real life. We know that dark and evil spirits an preserve themselves within the flow of the force, both dark side and light, but there is (according to Obi-Wan) mroe to it than that.

I have always thought of the Force as something like the combined aggregate of all the life (or midi's) in the galaxy. I always liekened it to the sci-fi analogy where the universe is trying to understand itself by placing bits of itself (souls or whatever) in sentient beings and other life. In that sense, the Jedi have he uniqwue power not only be be part of life, but to tap into its source. And likewise, the seething malevolence of the Dakr Side tempts and corrupts those who touch it to do tis work. Much like the True Power/One Power in Wheel of Time.

So, despite the fact that the Jedi originated, and remain, as a moralistic monastic sect, it it not morality of ordinary beings that matters or counts in any way, but the morality of those who can touch and use the raw power of the force. Because, in a sense, they have their hands *on the source* of all life itself. That is why Dark/Light matters to Jedi, but not "mortals."

adious amigos

 

Or it might be that this is a blind spot area that Lucas has missed in his focus upon Luke and Anakin's stories, in which case perhaps not even HE knows.

If as it seems from posters, that the Forceblind can do what they like without spiritual consequence, what morality exists in SW to hold sway over human action?

In the Prequels it seems clear there is societal moral decay, the Empire's rise could be testimony to it. In which case where did the rebellion come from? What was it in the nature of Mothma, Organa, Bel Iblis and others to enable them to say 'x is wrong, x was done by the Empire, the Empire is evil and must be opposed'.

If not the Force, what is the basis for moral action in SW for the forceblind?

Jedi Ben

 

"If not the Force, what is the basis for moral action in SW for the forceblind?

Jedi Ben"

You summed it up pretty well there JB. Once you remove the force from the equation the question you're really asking is "What is the basis for moral action in our own world?" I would say that the answer to that question depends on your own theological beliefs.

If someone believes that there is a "heaven and hell" type afterlife, then the basis for moral action is to get to heaven, or avoid hell. If someone believes in reincarnation, then they will attempt to be moral in order to improve their lot in their next lifetime. For others moral acts are their own reward, and no religious reward is needed.

When you boil it all down to this level, "Why are some people good, and some people evil?" I'm not sure there is any answer in any universe...

 

Well IF I wanted to ask the question JHC_JEDI, I would have. But, you define the problem I have nicely.

Without the Force there has to be either a slightly different base for morality in SW, or there has to be that even those who are not sensitive to the Force are still a part of and tied to the Force as a part of the unified whole.

As to why this matters: SW is a tale of good and evil, with a quite distinct stance on the choosing of one over the other. Yet that stance seems to omit a whole and very large group of people, which it shouldn't. SW is not concerned with notions of particular but universal morality, it was due to that notion we can say the Empire was evil. There must therefore be a reason for the forceblind to not do anything they like in SW. Shouldn't there? Irrespective of legal frameworks and such created societal notions?

Jedi Ben

 

No. In my opinion, being a Jedi has more to do with training your mind than using the Force. A Jedi has good and bad impulses just like any other person, the only difference is that with the Force, their bad impulses can be potentially much more devastating. Being a Jedi, you learn how to deal with those impulses. In my opinion there's not really a "light" and "dark" side of the Force -- there's just the Force, and people can use it in a good way or a bad way. Someone who's not Force sensitive can make bad decisions and become an evil person (if you believe in good and evil), but that's not the Dark Side of the Force, because they don't have access to the Force with which to tap it in such a way.

 

Uldir Lochett is not Force Sensitive and he has +10 force points for the skill of:Enhance Ability whats with that?

and Ephant Mon is described by Jedi Knight Ki-Adi Mundi as being (Somewhat Force Adept)and he even feels the Force in TFJP after Luke shows him his past,maybe he is a part of the NJO jedi order?

And in the comic Prelude to Rebellion Yoda tells Ki that Bin Garda Zon has lost his battle with the Dark Side,not the force but good and evil right/wrong so others are influenced by the force or act like good or evil people like dark jedi or jedi.

 

Uldir Lochett is not Force Sensitive and he has +10 force points for the skill of:Enhance Ability whats with that?

He is Force Sensitive; he can feel when someone is strong in the Force; he's just not strong enough to control it himself.

 

Jedi Ben,
The Force is mutually exclusive of morality. That is the Light Side is not the same as "Good" or "Goodness" and the Dark Side is not the same as "Evil" or "Evilness."

Han Solo ultimately is a good person. But he is not a follower of the Light Side of the Force - not even an unwitting follower.

So, what makes someone like Han ultimately choose good?

Morality is not a matter of taste, despite what some may have you believe. Human beings have reason, have empathy, have compassion (or lack of it). Therefore, moral judgement in the Star Wars universe like our own is driven by all three. A judgement based on empathy and compassion, without reason, for example is inviting disaster. A judgement based on reason and empathy, yet lacking compassion is also inviting disaster. The people of the GFFA know this, just as we know this. This is reinforced somewhat by the track record of the lack of a moral judgement - a history of atrocity certainly confirms it.

However, this is wholly seperate from the Force. The Force is an energy field holding oppositely-charged aspects - the Light Side and the Dark Side. Even the followers of the Light Side - the greatest defenders of the Light Side, the Jedi - can and have committed evil and/or immoral actions presumably "for the greater good." Such things as lying, cheating (skewing deals, etc.) certainly lack a moral character, and yes, can be considered evil actions. This is however, acceptable to a strict Lightsider, because the Light Side is not "Goodness" itself. Such actions, however, would not be okay with a strict moralist.

Relativism in the GFFA is like relativism in our universe - it is a fallacy. Granted, the idea of relativism sounds appealing, if solely for the idea of tolerance - anything by anyone is acceptable, because it's all relative.

There is a clear limit to relativism. Take, Oreo-cookie-eating customs for example. In some places people just take a bite through the whole depth of the cookie. Others may seperate a cookie top or bottom, eat the creamy middle, then finish off the other cookie. Still others may dip their oreos in milk, if available. Each is merely a different way of looking at the same core issue. But, while cookie-eating rules may be relative, there is also one key issue at play - there exists a rule no matter where you go. If everyone is to eat an Oreo, everyone must have a way to do so. For otherwise there's complete and utter chaos and the system breaks down.

So, clearly there are now two key disctinctions - one transcultural and the other local. The transcultural requirement is that "we need some way of eating an Oreo" whereas the local requirement is "hey, this is the way we skinned that cat, but yours may be different."

This is what qualifies relativism and the fallacy of it. If everyone needs the rule that there should be some rule, then that itself shows a universal standard exists.

Now, it is no great leap to suggest that the core of ethics is universal in the same way.

The GFFA is "human" - even the aliens are "human." This is so that us humans watching the movies and reading the stories can understand what's going on. So, therefore every society that is even remotely recognizeable as human requires some foundation of existence. And we have non-relative examples which we know with complete certainty. Happiness is preferable to misery. Dignity is better than humiliation. It's bad people suffer, worse if a culture turns a blind eye to that suffering. Death is worse than life. Attempts to find a common point of view are better than manipulative contempt for it (that last one goes out to... )

So, we can assume that people are moral in the GFFA for the same reasons they choose to be moral in our universe. And the key point in answering your question is that no, the Force does not exist in our universe - so it is a moot point in talking morality in the GFFA if its the same as us. The Force is a seperate entity altogether.

Star Wars is indeed about good versus evil. Tha

 

Hmm, quite a post by The Genghis.

That is a picture which the RPG info leads to, it accounts for the difficulties. Yet I remain uneasy at what you propose that the battle of light and dark in SW is distinct from good and evil, I've never seen the two sets of labels as separate. BUT...

You have your view of SW and I have mine, I find your portrayal makes me uneasy due to the central idea of a separaton of good/bad, light/dark. You have no trouble with that separation so I'm throwing the Q out to the floor: Can it be said good/evil is distinct from light/dark or is it all semantics? If so does that mean there is no substantial thing as good/evil, light/dark?

I like how you explain things and set it up, the anti-relativism part appeals, as you might expect. I'd say my difficulty goes back to something I put in my profile: I like loking at stories and seeing what they can say about our world, hence I'm uneasy at the separtion. If you just see SW as a story, or any story as a story, instead of strip-mining it for philosophical, political and moral ideas, as I tend to do, then there is no problem.

Thanks all,

Jedi Ben

 

Jedi Ben...
"Hmm, quite a post by The Genghis."

Thanks. I disagree that one can't find intelligent discussion in Lit. It's just that here, we don't feel a need to have each person gush that every post which merely slams something is "the most intelligent post" ever. We're not that insecure about constantly pointing such things out.

"That is a picture which the RPG info leads to, it accounts for the difficulties."

Honestly, I think WEG's SWRPG got it pretty good. Interesting things about it. Yes, they had "special insight" into the whole good/evil - Light/Dark aspects, as they were allowed pretty much free reign into the mysterious and enigmatic "Star Wars Vaults" at LFL. But, it's still a group of guys just trying their best at modelling things they've seen in the saga using the tools they have available to them.

Also interesting to note that when it came time for later works to conform to anything, this game was the main one everyone had to match. I'd say that in itself speaks volumes about whether people think WEG's view is the "correct" one or not.

I like it, but that's because it paralleled my own pre-existing thoughts on the matter rather well.

"You have your view of SW and I have mine, I find your portrayal makes me uneasy due to the central idea of a separaton of good/bad, light/dark. You have no trouble with that separation so I'm throwing the Q out to the floor: Can it be said good/evil is distinct from light/dark or is it all semantics? If so does that mean there is no substantial thing as good/evil, light/dark?"

I'll throw back a key point in that the two have to be different. It is not merely semantics.

There is a substantial thing as "light/dark." It is substantial in that the Force is a mystical energy field. It is tangible. It can be sensed, altered, controlled to have a substantial impact on the physical world. The "light/dark" are aspects of this energy field. One can see and feel the Force lightening of Emperor Palpatine's Dark Side energy. In fact, this Dark Side energy can even kill. Daala felt the power of the Light Side energy rather substantially when she saw her fleet get flung across the galaxy.

There is no substantial thing as "good/evil." It is a state of mind (or more correctly, "soul"). It cannot be controlled. Good cannot be used to directly fling Star Destroyers across the galaxy. However, these two concepts lie at the foundation of the power which can accomplish such things. Through goodness, one can achieve the power to do the undoable. Same thing through evil. Yes, these concepts - good and evil - are inherently powerful. They can drive people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do. However, they are not part of a tangible, substantial mystical energy field which runs through all things in the universe.

I tend to think of it this way, the war of good and evil lies at the core of Star Wars. The battle of Light/Dark are just tools within that larger war - they're a smaller battle of the larger war.

 

That may well resolve my unease.

One Q: What WAS your first paragraph going on about? the one with the smilies?

Jedi Ben

 

Non-force sensitive people can be evil but they cannot go to the dark side.

 

Not to side-track the discussion, but it was going on about a specific thread in EU Community as it related to your comment "quite a post" here in Lit.

Lit. often produces "quite the posts," however, people here seem to not feel a need to constantly point that fact out like another thread does. Perhaps if everyone gushed about every post...

Spammer A: "The XXX Sucks"
Poster B: "Brilliant, intelligent post, Spammer A"

Then perhaps those people would feel we have "intelligent" discussions in Lit. like they feel other threads do.

 

Funny. I could of sworn I knew what thread you've referred yet can't quite recall.

Just for your info though: I've had several good discussions here over the years: the DE debate with Kieran Halcyon, recently debates with Kier Nimmion and Vergere: Surprising huh? NJO fan and NJO critic actually discussing stuff and not brawling, it happens. It is as often as it used but I neither have as much time as I sed for this hobby, so that is not necesarily a bad thing.

Oh and I always try and give credit where it's due.

Jedi Ben