Carnahan, Wellstone & Litton.... coincidence or conspiracy?

For anyone who's not aware or doesn't remember, in 2000, Mel Carnahan was entering the final three weeks of the Missouri campaign against then-GOP Sen. Ashcroft when he boarded a small plane on Oct. 16, 2000. (His widow took his campaign spot and beat Ashcroft, who said he would retire and spend time with his family until Bush nominated him Atty General.)

More recently, Paul Wellstone of Minnesota died in a plane crash just a couple of weeks before the election - Mondale, taking over his campaign, failed to secure the Senate seat. Just hours before Wellstone's death, Reuters had reported that Wellstone's seat was key to the Democrats holding the Senate.

But that's not all. Missouri twice lost political leaders in plane crashes in recent times. In 1976, Democratic Rep. Jerry Litton, his wife, their two children and a pilot and co-pilot died in a crash the night he won the Democratic nomination for U.S. Senate. Republican John Danforth went on to defeat the replacement nominee and served for three terms, until Ashcroft succeeded him.

This is a standard AP story, which I've found at numerous places all over the web. This link is to the Guardian.

So let's discuss.

Fact: People get assassinated while running for office, to keep them out of office. Robert Kennedy, for example. This much is true whether or not you believe any of them to be the result of conspiracy.

Speculation: Do the similarities between the deaths of Litton, Carnahan and Wellstone indicate a plot of any sort?

The "just a coincidence" argument is just that. Basically, that these things happen, and the fact they seem almost exclusively to happen to Democrats is also a coincidence, or perhaps a case of divine justice from an apparently non-Democrat God.

The conspiracy argument might go something like this: Litton's death was an accident. Someone who wanted Ashcroft to win, noting how well Litton's death had served to put his predecessor into office, tried a similar stunt on Carnahan. Then Wellstone was similarly killed by someone who realized how important his particular congressional seat was to the Democrats. Conspiracy arguers might also suggest Litton's death wasn't an accident either - after all, political assassinations have occurred as long as there were politics.

And yes, conspiracy theorists would probably suggest Ashcroft and Bush plotted all of this themselves, then assigned CIA spooks to carry out their orders. Let's leave that sort of speculation out of here, as it will only cause a flame war. If there IS any conspiracy, or even a case of "lone nuts" doing copycat crimes to keep people they disagree with out of office, the conspiracy could consist of anyone from ordinary radical citizens up to foreign governments. If you want to accuse someone directly in this debate, I suggest you have some sort of at least circumstantial evidence. Otherwise, let's stick to the theory of an unnamed conspiracy.

So, keeping in mind that anyone who argues FOR a conspiracy is not necessarily accusing a politician you like, let's discuss this. If you were a cop and three blond teenage boys were killed in very similar circumstances just weeks before high school graduation, you'd check out the possibility it's a serial or copycat killer, wouldn't you? So what do we make of these three crashes?

 

This is just about the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. The problem is that you have absolutely no proof that a "vast right wing conspiracy" (Hillary Clinton redux) was responsible for their deaths. Wouldn't those evil Republicans find more pertinent targets?

How successful have the alleged assassinations been? Let's see...Jean Carnahan rode a corpse into office and Walter Mondale barely lost. If Wellstone's wife did not die, then she would win without question. [sarcasm]I bet those nasty Republicans learned their lesson in 2000 with Carnahan.[/sarcasm] The only reason Mondale probably lost was because of the backlash over the tasteless "memorial service"; the sympathy vote was no doubt for the Democrats, but they squandered it.

I am not familiar with the Litton tragedy, but I still find it a stretch of the imagination to propose such conspiracy theories.

What about the three Republican senators who nearly got into a plane crash themselves shortly after the Wellstone tragedy? Was that another assassination attempt?

 

How about some proof that these plane crashes were intentionally orchestrated by some malicious party?

 

Well, if you want to start this line of thinking, we can only assume that the Democrats saw the success Carnahan enjoyed when he was killed in MO, and sought to duplicate that result with a candidate facing a tough fight. You have proven to me that the Democratic Party is responsible for Wellstone's "assassination."

Here's your tinfoil hat.

[image=http://www.qsl.net/kc2ufo/6.jpg]

AYBABTU?

 

I should come to The Senate Floor more often...that theory gave me the best laugh I've had all day.

All I can say is that the Republicans desperately, desparately need better conspiracy theorists if killing three people over 26 YEARS is the best they can do. I'm supposed to believe this was the best super-secret, murderous, Senate-grabbing plan they could come up with? That would just be downright disappointing. Any lone nut could come up with something simpler and more effective than this!

 

Couple things:
SithCloak1 is being very moderate in this theory. Those of you who attacked him (or her, sorry if I assume wrong) need to read it again and realize that he is not accusing anyone of the "assassinations", really. It's just there for discussion.

Second, if the same group killed both Carnahan and Wellstone, they probably would have realized why they lost the first time (the wife) and taken steps to eliminate that possibility. (This is if you believe the conspiracy theory.)

Third, I do suspect that Paul Wellstone was killed by some unknown person or persons. I DO NOT have evidence of who it could be, however, and am NOT going to speculate wildly in here. I just find it suspicious that the leading liberal senator in the US, who just happened to be in a close election, died so close to the election. I will wait for the results of the investigation before making any accusations. (I do not believe Litton and Carnahan were assassinated, tho I haven't looked into Litton too much.)

Fourth, to add one bit of wild and silly speculation, Ted Kennedy (brother of 2 assassinated politicians) was campaigning with Wellstone the day before he was killed and flew on that same plane earlier. Could he have been targeted?

Feel free to shoot down my opinions, but please keep it civil. I posted a thread about this in JC Community a few days back and it got pretty ugly so it had to be locked. Please don't let it get ugly in here.

 

What has been so uncivil in our response? The conspiracy theory is baseless and you seem to acknowledge that fact. Why hasn't anyone answered my question on the near-crash three Republican senators nearly endured shortly after Wellstone's?

Shooting around conspiracy theories without any facts to back it up is rather pointless. People crash and die all the time it seems...whether they are rich or poor...famous or infamous; does that imply they were assassinated? Besides, one would have to think Republicans were some serious scum in order to entertain the possibility of them doing this. Just how sinister are the Republicans?

So what if he was a liberal senator? Big deal...

I think the Democrats had far more stake in this election than the Republicans did. After all, Wellstone appeared to be losing to Coleman, if one could trust the polls. What better gimic would there be than to have a "memorial service" promote the liberal agenda and milk the sympathy vote? However, this time it did not work...

 

I think you will need more than a tinfoil hat. Coincidence? What the heck is so coincidental about it? You might as well tie it Lincon's death as well, as it is obviously the same group. This is the same sort of thinking that led to stories about the 4,000 jews that weren't in the WTC. If there was some sort of conspiracy, don't you think they would have killed the people in the way? Dashel, Gore, Bill, and Hillary Clinton are more of a threat to Republicans than some Senator I never heard of from the midwest.

 

Wow, SithColak1, you sound just like Barbara Striesand!!! She was saying the exact same thing allegedly, so I guess by Rosie The Hutt O'Donnell standards....it must be true.....

 

(Who is SithColak1?)

Who were these three Senators? I remember hearing Trent Lott's name in connection with a near crash, but who were the other two (I believe you, I just want to know)? As for why that wasn't an assassination, maybe it was and the Democrats just bungled it (like they seem to be doing with everything else these days [I'm very dissatisfied with much of the Democratic Party at the moment])

All I said was that I thought his death looked suspicious. I said I would wait until the investigation was complete before making any accusations and I did NOT accuse the Republicans* of killing Wellstone. I will NOT dishonor his memory (unlike the Dems at the memorial service) by making wild accusations. I'm saying his crash looks suspicious. (The Kennedy "connection" was a joke.)

*In my second point in my previous post (about Carnahan), I did imply them by saying "they lost." I wish to change that to "they failed."

 

Ted Rall wrote about this days ago.

Andrew Sullivan rebukes.


The crash certainly has suspicious elements in it, and deserves investigation by the authrorities with proper jurisdiction. Unless given probably cause, though, I think speculation is unfounded in this case.

 

problems with crashes if that lets say a rudder snaps, that in the crash, the evidence of the rudder snapping could be lost as well. Or the evidence that it is tampered with is often destroyed in the crash as well.

 

I believe this whole situation has far more to do with small planes than any conspiracy. Small planes seem to crash VERY often due to not only the physics but also the relative inexperience of small plane pilots.

BTW, I think the other two Senators were Nickles and Santorum, but I am not absolutely sure.

 

Red Seven said: The crash certainly has suspicious elements in it, and deserves investigation by the authrorities with proper jurisdiction. Unless given probably cause, though, I think speculation is unfounded in this case.

This is actually the main point I was trying to get across. That investigation is in order; suspicion is in order; speculation at this point would be unfounded; but the root of investigation IS creating theories and seeing if they fit. So I asked people not to accuse anyone (unless they have some wonderful evidence the rest of us do not), and I guess I should also have said "don't reverse accuse someone by presuming they've already been accused by another poster."

My response to the speculation thus far....

I think a sort of copycat serial killing is more likely than any conspiracy, and here's why: there is no single known party or group that has a motive for all three. Even if you just go by the recent two crashes, you eliminate any high-ranking politicians by lack of motive because, for example, Only Ashcroft stood to benefit from Carnahan's death, and it's quite nebulous who might have felt they would benefit from Wellstone's. Bush can't have thought getting rid of just one guy from the opposition would secure everything he wanted.

The best conspiracy theory might be one along the lines of someone trying to send a message to Democrats or people they simply dislike who have so far happened to be Demorats - and this could be a lot of people other than Republicans. Or at least other than Republicans who are in office.

Remember the group that trashed Seattle in 1999 during a WTO summit? They are an example of a terrorist group within the US who - rather than campaign or lobby or start a grass roots movement to defeat what they consider bad trade practices - has promised to blow up buildings and commit further acts of potentially deadly vandalism in the name of their cause. Now I'm not accusing this group as they appear to have no motive as we haven't heard from them since 1999, I'm just reminding everyone that radical terrorist groups exist within the normal US populace. In fact, this is one of my main points in creating this thread - we tend to forget we have dangerous extremists within the US, born and raised here, working as vigilantes to bring about change rather than going through normal channels.

Oh, I just got reminded - virtually all the anthrax samples sent to politicians after 9/11 were sent to Democrats. Were these sent by bin Laden? To my knowledge, our investigators have yet to figure out that whole mystery, and maybe they never will. But my bet is on some American yahoos who hate Democrats. Once again, no matter what one thinks of Bush or other high-ranking Republicans, it's pretty comical to try to imagine them sending envelopes of anthrax to other politicians. I can't quite picture Trent Lott in white gloves working under a microscope, all the while fuming about something that nasty Daschle said on the floor of the Senate today.

If one were to investigate these crashes, I'd start with the pilots and mechanics who took care of the planes. If you can eliminate any of them being someone who is willing to kill or die in the name of protecting the US (as they see it), you can probably eliminate the idea that it was murder.

TripleB said, problems with crashes if that lets say a rudder snaps, that in the crash, the evidence of the rudder snapping could be lost as well. Or the evidence that it is tampered with is often destroyed in the crash as well.

I thought I heard something early on about them having found the black box, then they said they didn't, or something. I can't decide whether that's suspicious, or just typical of the sort of horrific mess a crash investigation can become.

 

I was not aware that planes that small carried black boxes. I thought that was required only for bigger jumbo jets and such.

 

I don't think the plane had any black boxes.

 

So, keeping in mind that anyone who argues FOR a conspiracy is not necessarily accusing a politician you like, let's discuss this. If you were a cop and three blond teenage boys were killed in very similar circumstances just weeks before high school graduation, you'd check out the possibility it's a serial or copycat killer, wouldn't you? So what do we make of these three crashes?

Litton: 1976.
Carnahan: 2000.
Wellstone: 2002.

The comparison to three teenagers dying "just weeks before high school graduation" doesn't hold up here.

Why? Because these deaths were spread across TWENTY-FOUR YEARS.

Glenn Miller, Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, Patsy Cline, John Denver, and Aaliyah have all been killed in airplane crashes in the last sixty years... and nobody's looking for the connections between those deaths.

ISN'T IT CLEAR? SOMEBODIES KILLING OUR MUSICMAKERS, TRYING TO ROB US OF OUR MUSIC! WHY WON'T SOMEBODY INVESTIGATE?! WHY, DEAR GOD, WHY?

<sigh>

 

I have to say that is the most pathetic conspiracy theory that I have ever heard.

1. No evidence provided
2. 3 killings in 26 years. What a productive conspiracy
3. Carnahan killing failed in objective of preventing victory so why copy with Wellstone.

 

Just a point here...

Litton: 1976.
Carnahan: 2000.
Wellstone: 2002.

The comparison to three teenagers dying "just weeks before high school graduation" doesn't hold up here.

Why? Because these deaths were spread across TWENTY-FOUR YEARS.

Serial killers have spanned more than 20 years in their killings, so from an investigative perspective, the comparison does hold up.

Again, as I suggested, a sort of "copycat serial killing" sounds more plausible than a direct conspiracy theory. For example, someone noticed the Litton accident, thought a similar accident could be "arranged" for someone else they want to eliminate.

 

SithCloak

I've just noticed you signature and now I understand how you managed to come up with this idea.

 

DarthKarde, aren't there 2 R's in Karrde? And you're questioning SithCloak1's intelligence? Don't use personal insults unless you can take the heat too.
Keep this thread civil.

Besides, SithCloak1 said that he thinks that a copycat killing, NOT a conspiracy, could be the reason behind Wellstone and Carnahan's killings (this is his theory). Read what he says - do not put words in his (or my) mouth.

 

Actually, I haven't claimed a theory - I'm playing devil's advocate and suggesting various theories for both sides. The reason my ideas have leaned more toward the conspiracy side is because most of you guys are arguing the other side. Well, to be perfectly accurate, many of you are just slinging feces like monkeys, but you're doing it in the name of the "just concidence" side of the argument.

In truth, I don't know what to think. I find it hard to imagine the recent two cases are mere coincidence - particularly coming so close before the election that they should have assured victory for the opponents of the deceased. On the other hand, as I keep repeating like a broken record, I don't see anyone we know of having a motive for both crimes.

Another point which I'm surprised no one has mentioned is that if Wellstone WAS murdered, the killer would have known this method was too similar to the Carnahan case not to raise a few eyebrows - which leads me to believe that IF he was killed, the killing was meant to send a message to other liberal Democrats.

Oh, and DarthKarde said "3. Carnahan killing failed in objective of preventing victory so why copy with Wellstone. "

Yeah, but our theoretical conspirators didn't make the same mistake with Wellstone that they made with Carnahan - this time they got the wife, too. No widow to run in his place and get the sympathy vote.

Once again, for those of you too young to understand the concept of argument, I'm not suggesting this DID happen, I'm playing out a theory of what might have happened.

 

So this is a what if thread?

I have trouble seeing where you're going with this.

 

Anyway, why focus on Democrats killed twenty-odd years apart? How about this?

- Senator H. John Heinz (R-PA) died in an airplane crash on April 4, 1991.

- Former Senator John G. Tower (R-TX) died in an airplane crash on April 5, 1991.

Here we have a case of two senators (one in office, one former) dying from plane crashes in CONSECUTIVE days. And they were BOTH Republicans.

We can play this game ad naseum - and I'd say we reached naseum the moment this thread was started.

 

DarthKarde, aren't there 2 R's in Karrde? And you're questioning SithCloak1's intelligence? Don't use personal insults unless you can take the heat too.
Keep this thread civil.

Besides, SithCloak1 said that he thinks that a copycat killing, NOT a conspiracy, could be the reason behind Wellstone and Carnahan's killings (this is his theory). Read what he says - do not put words in his (or my) mouth.

1. I was joking. You know humour. It was hardly a hurtful personal insult. If he was going to take offense then he shouldn't have that comment as his signature and considering his lack of response to it I assume that he did not take offense. I swear that some people go out of their way to find somethings offensive or insulting.

2. Yes Karrde should have two R's in it but I spelt it wrong when I registered and their is no way to change it. You are not the first to point it out.

Oh, and DarthKarde said "3. Carnahan killing failed in objective of preventing victory so why copy with Wellstone. "

Yeah, but our theoretical conspirators didn't make the same mistake with Wellstone that they made with Carnahan - this time they got the wife, too. No widow to run in his place and get the sympathy vote.

As I understand it and I could be wrong on this the law in Missouri allowed Carnahan's name to remain on the ballot after his death but in Minnesota the law required a new name on the ballot.