Clones Too "Independent"?

In AOTC, the clones' breeders on Kamino told Obi-Wan that they had customized the clones' genetic structure resulting in clones that were "totally obedient, taking any order without question....[they were modified to be] less independent than their host."

But watching CW, the clones seem to be straight from Hollywood central casting - they're portrayed exactly like every group of soldiers in every schlock war movie (not counting 'Platoon', I guess). Besides the fact that their faces are all the same, there's no indication that there's anything unique about them at all.

And as far as them being "totally obedient", in at least one CW episode (the last one, 'Rookies'), the clones actually complain about their assignments and even question the chain of command.

Now, just to be clear, I'm enjoying CW a lot, but I think that this deviation from logical continuity is probably the result of the writers' laziness. Rather than create a new type of soldier or character (which would require a lot of imagination), they instead just ran out to Blockbuster and grabbed 'Saving Private Ryan' and 'Guns of the Naverone' and said, "Hey, their soldier formula worked, so let's copy it!"

The tour of Kamino in AOTC was one of the most science-fiction-y moments of the entire series, it really created a sense of wonder and got my mind running about eugenics, gene tampering, and all sorts of grandiose ideas. But this TV show has totally undermined that scene in the movie....in my opinion.

 

I don?t mind the clones having more personality. From a story point of view, it?d be boring if the whole army was just a bunch of yes-clones. Also, I think back in AotC, the Kaminoans said the clones were modified to be more obedient, but were still capable of independent thought, which made them superior to droids, who obviously aren?t all that bright usually. Also, while they are all clones of the same person, there?s something to be said for each having their own quirks, though that partially goes into the whole nature vs. nurture debate, but here, the clones are all a little different from each other, though they might not think so. Many of them are trained in different roles too, which influences their personality (medical, fleet officer, infantry, etc.), and according to Yoda back in the first episode, apparently they all appear quite different in the Force.

Not to mention that those clones in the last episode weren?t top of the line, fully trained clones, they had been rushed out to man a post, though that post supposedly wasn?t that dangerous a one (though it was still important) so that might be why they were more? independent than clones usually seemed to be. Although for the individual quirks, I just chalk that up to personality, like that one clone obsessed with regulations, etc. There?s also something to be said for experiences, like when Anakin and Obi-wan were bickering about their clone commanders, that maybe Rex wasn?t that good at following orders either, just like Anakin, and Anakin said maybe Cody was boring Rex with rules. And in the field, we saw that Rex came up with the crazy idea while Cody was skeptical, which is sorta like how it is with Anakin and Obi-wan.

Its fun watching clones like this, but it makes it all the more tragic when Order 66 is given, too. Though that?s also part of Palpatine?s master plan, but that?s just how prequel era stories usually go.

Though I do agree that that scene in AotC when they show all the clones on Kamino was one of the better scenes of that movie, especially with the nice foreboding stormtrooper images. In the EU, they've been giving clones at least a little bit of personality over time, its just that here, the clones have been getting a lot more focus than usual.

 

and according to Yoda back in the first episode, apparently they all appear quite different in the Force.

Come to think of it, doesn't this completely contradict the account in the Thrawn trilogy when the presence of the clones more or less shuts down Luke's ability to connect to the Force?

 

Different kind of cloning? And all those were cloned in Ysalamiri bubbles, too, no? Which is rather Force-specific, unlike Kaminoan clones.

At least AFAIK these days any and all differences between Kamino-clones and all other clones are blamed on the cloning technology

 

That was the ysalamiri, not the clones.

...and then follow orders.

 

My only complaint about the clones is that in the films they are professional soldiers meant to serve the backbone of the Republic Army, and relieve the Jedi from the intense kind of finding they had to experience in AOTC. In AOTC it was the Clones that saved the Jedi, a handful jumping out of gunships to provide covering fire for the Jedi as they were evacuated from the arena and away from the innumerous droids inside it. Meanwhile, in TCW it seems that in 2 or 3 of the episodes so far there are clones that are complaining about "oh I wish there was a Jedi here right now," or seem to have a "the Jedi can win this war all by themselves" attitude. They just act so helpless without Jedi there as an emotional crutch to ease their pessimism and doubt.

 

She only said they were more obedient than Jango...we don't know by how much or how bad Jango was.

Anyway, some people just have a personality where they instinctively obey orders from authority figures...doesn't mean they aren't people and don't grumble about things when no authority is around.

 

Life finds a way...



Clones are human beings and they may be bred to be obediant but give it time and they'll be more like humans than a drone-clone. Droids are stopped from developing a personality through memory wipes. Threepio had none during the OT which is why he is such a character. Artoo never had one which is why he has so many secrets and has an attitude. You can't give a clone a memory wipe and control any personality from coming in. You think these clones are something. Read the Republic Commando series, we got Darman and his Jedi honey straight having a baby, who knows maybe she ordered him to HAHA

 

As far as I can tell, it looks like we're all in agreement: the clones are, well, clones of war movie stock characters, that no imagination or creativity whatsoever was applied in the creation of these characters, and that they gave the middle finger to canon by not following the characters as described in AOTC.

So, the only disagreement is in whether this makes the show better or worse.

The consensus here seems to be that copying war movie cliches is good, whereas I think that it would've been interesting to shake things up just a little. But screw AOTC....on with the hacking of 'Saving Private Ryan'!

 

Something I'm starting to get used to with Filoni to be honest. Clone Wars is a lot easier to enjoy when you remember that it's just someone else's take on Star Wars and not neccesarily canon.

I actually remember the CW miniseries making the clones interesting without giving them much independence at all. I've actually always thought it would be a better move for the canon to focus more on them working together as proffesional tacticians. The don't neccesarily need to be more human in order to make them interesting.

 

I don't see a discrepancy.

 

"General Windu, as far as CRC-09/571 (Clone Regimental Commander, which has been retconned to CC.) could determine, was ordering the clones to die. But (71) could no more disobey a lawful order than he could walk through armor plate."
-Shatterpoint, pg 388.

In case there is any questions, CTs are not bred to like orders, just obey them.

 

I find the irony of this statement fairly amazing

 

Obscure EU novels are not canon. That's the whole point.

I didn't even notice that! Very shrewd!

 

Shatterpoint isn't obscure. Just because you don't read the EU, that doesn't mean it's obscure. And they are canon, just not on the same level as the movies and show.

 

Where's the dispute with canon?

They are trained to OBEY ANY ORDER. That doesn't mean they have to sit there. If you'd prefer them to act like Jean-Claude Van Damme in Universal Solider, that's your prerogative.

Real-life soldiers are also trained to obey without question, and they're trained to bond with their squadmates to create a sense of esprit de corps and camaraderie. That doesn't mean they don't have personalities or fears or strange habits.

And keep in mind, Lama Su was referring to the clones in direct opposition to their genetic template, Jango Fett, who was obviously highly individualistic.

 

Obscure EU novels are not canon. That's the whole point.
No, they are. Look at the Lucasarts official policy: they are all canon.

Before anyone else brings out Lucas' little throwaway line about his vision and others: So what? it is still official company policy, which is different from, say, star trek policy where novels aren't canon.

Besides, according to your logic, episode 3 gave episode 2 the middle finger, since it had explicitly individual clones.

 

Yeah, it's my prerogative to seek sci-fi that has actual imagination and doesn't pulverize its own internal logic, and it can be your prerogative to wave pom-poms for flaccid hacking of B-war movies in a shameless attempt to tap into some "collective unconscious."

Anybody who watched AOTC and expected the clones to be the way they're conveyed in CW, raise your hand. Nobody? Me, neither. CW entirely undermines the logic as shown in AOTC, and I don't like that. It's that simple.

 

You're assuming immediately obeying orders entails some sort of lack of personality on the part of the soldier. We don't get to see anything in AOTC about how the troops are in any EXCEPT a brief combat situation. Oh, and eating lots of nothing at the mess hall.

 

Was that guy eating nothing?

I don't think that actually happened. Perhaps you imagine that it happened.

 

Anybody who watched AOTC and expected the clones to be the way they're conveyed in CW, raise your hand.
Yo!

Seriously dude, "everyone agrees with me" is not much of an argument...mainly because if they are arguing with you, they obviously don't agree.

See, this is what gets me about fans, when something turns out different than they expected, they rarely ever say "well I interpreted it wrong". They always go "ZOMG plothole!"

 

It's cool how you quote me saying things I never said. Can I try that? MercenaryAce told me, "Yeah, I don't have any problems with what Michael Jackson did. In fact...."

Now, you can keep claiming that there's no discrepancy between the clones as described in AOTC and as portrayed in CW, but it's flagrantly bogus. It's like saying, "The sky is maroon and 2+2=5." Okay....you have the right to say that but, like, why would anybody respond when it's so obvious that you're willing to lie in the discussion? I really, really, really hope that you're on Lucasfilm's payroll or something, because if you're not but you're still out lying for them, that's really sad.

(And if you don't like "fans"....why are you on TFN?)

 

There's no discrepancy between the clones as described in AOTC and as portrayed in CW.

 

Disagreeing with you is not lying. Keep the personal attacks out please, Brennan.

 

"On theories such as these we cannot rely. Proof we need. Proof!" (Yoda, Jedi Master)