Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?

Just a thought because Anakin Skywalker was very powerfull and skilled as a duelist and defeatd both Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku in duels and totally dominated his duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi after he turned to the dark side and became the Sith Lord Darth Vader, Vader also lead the attack on the Jedi Temple and killed many Jedi Knights including Cin Drallig who was the Temples best lightsaber master when the attack happened, in fact Nick Gillard was supposed to have a brief fight scene with Darth Vader but it barely happens (We only see Darth Vader attacking him in a hologram while grabbing a female jedi by the throat) it would have been nice to see if Vader could have taken Mace Windu head on and defeated him.

Mace Windu alone survives the duel with Palpatine as he ends it by kicking him in the head and disarming Palpatine when Anakin arrives right after that, Mace Windu is able to fight Palpatine in a duel without getting himself killed something that nobody except for Yoda is capable of doing, not even pre-suit Darth Vader IMHO could have defeated Palpatine who is more experienced and knows a wider range of dueling styles and lightsaber combat forms, and he should having trained Darth Maul and Count Dooku personally and being mentioned as a master of all forms and all weapons.

If Mace Windu can defeat Palpatine then i belive that Mace Windu would have easily defeated Darth Vader if they fought, Windu in the EU even defeats Asajj Ventress easily with no effort somthing that Anakin had a lot of trouble doing, he also in LOE fights General Grievious and holds him off very easily until he force crushes his lungs and causes his breathing probelm, I would have liked to see Mace be forced to duel Darth Vader, that would have been awesome, Chosen One or not Anakin or Vader would not have stood a chance in a duel against him.

 

It's possible but not likely. Mace Windu was the standard by which all Jedi were measured in terms of fighting ability, whereas Yoda was the most sagely of the Council. Mace Windu, while not visually as spectacular as ROTS Darth Vader, was probably the best fighter in the galaxy during ROTS, as Darth Sidious could attest to.

 

Pre-suited Vader would crush my man Windu.
And it wouldn't be close.


Vader would dominate that fight from start to finish, IMO.

 

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

If he coulda, he woulda. He "jumped" Mace Windu because he knew he was no match for him. Mace Windu had just put away Darth Sidious. Don't think Anakin didn't notice that.

 

I you're both wrong, Mace Windu defeated Palpatine and all of his attacks with little trouble, he also defeats Jango Fett,Asajj Ventress and General Grievious and hold Count Dooku at bay in one comic and Dooku is forced to use his Magma Droid Guards to distract Mace Windu in order to escape without being killed, i think Mace Windu could not be forced backwards by Vader because he has more muscle and raw power than him and his skills are too good for Vader to do that with him, also Mace Windu is a high level master of most of the Lightsaber Forms of Combat including the Vaapad Form VII and that turns the Dark Side of the force back against its user, it worked on Palpatine and Ventress and would work on Vader, and Vader is not as experienced as Windu is in duels and combat and Windu would hold him off long enough to defeat Vader and disarm him maybe literally, one kick to Vaders head and Vaders falls down and finds a lightsaber blade pointed at his chest "You are beaten Motherf#%ker! It is useless to resist, dont make me take that Dark Side of yours and shove it up your ass!." Windu would easily dominate Vader, Anakin even gets kicked into a wall by Count Dooku earlier on, Windu would never be slapped around like that during a duel.

 

Pre-Suit Darth Vader (assuming ROTS level, post Invisible Hand,but pre-Mustafar) could defeat Mace Windu. Mace Windu was the highest profile duelist in the Jedi Order. Not disputing that. However, Count Dooku was a Master duelist too, one of the best the Order had ever seen, and once Anakin tapped the dark side, he dominated Dooku. There is still debate about whether Palpatine gave it his best against Mace or not, whether Mace defeated him because of his skill, or whether Palpatine allowed himself to be temporarily defeated to serve a higher purpose...We simply don't have a conclusive answer to that yet.

However, after Anakin Skywalker accepts the Dark Side, I offer that Obi-Wan Kenobi was the only Jedi capable of defeating him. Obi-Wan was the Jedi who trained him, sparred with him, and teamed with him in countless lightsaber duels. Obi-Wan was inherently familiar with Anakin, Mace wouldn't have been. Obi-Wan's direct experience with Anakin/Vader is the only reason he is able to best him. Palpatine thought that Anakin would be a far greater Sith Lord than he was...and coming from a man as egotistical as Palpatine, that is high praise indeed for Anakin/Vader. If Palpatine recognizes Anakin/Vader's potential as being even greater than his own, then Anakin/Vader would be able to best Mace Windu in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel. Maybe not 100% of the time perhaps, but honestly, I would put my money on ROTS Anakin before I would put it on Windu.

Furthermore, I am not convinced that Palpatine is really all that great at dueling. He is a very strong Force user, however when he is actually using his lightsaber, he really doesn't impress me all that much. In the two fights we see Palpatine in, he uses the Force more than most, throwing objects, lightning, etc over pure lightsaber domination. Thats not a knock on Palpatine, he just fights differently than both Mace and Anakin would. Mace and Anakin are both direct fighters. They both come at you from the front, preferring to use their lightsabers over other Force usage to defeat their opponent. Against Yoda, Palpatine relied on tricks and hurling Senate platforms over direct lightsaber combat.

Duels are more than lightsaber skills alone, and Palpatine is good because his other knowledge makes up for him not being an absolute master at lightsaber combat. Both Mace and Anakin however, strengths are in their blades. You wouldn't see either one throwing things at each other nearly to the extent Palpatine does. Their fight would be more of a direct swordfight. When it comes to direct swordfighting, Mace Windu is very good. However, Anakin/Vader is very, very good. When Anakin/Vader is fighting at his highest level, I don't think there is anyone in the galaxy capable of defeating him heads up, with the lone exception being Obi-Wan.

 

I don't know if he would easily best Anakin, but I believe that would be the end result. You'll also notice that Mace Windu does not use the Force when fighting, except to soften an extremely long fall in AOTC. His form is impeccable.

 

Thanks.
Vader would have no emotional issues with Mace, just a burning desire to crush that pompous Jedi.

 

That... is why he'd fail.

 

It would have been an interesting duel. Anakin only beat Dooku when it was said he had hate and anger, but he didn't use it. Then Anakin tapped into that, and beat Dooku. But I can't say the same for Windu.

The one thing I would've loved to see was Cin Drallag (mispelled) and Anakin have a duel. I wish they would've had that in the movie, the full fight. That is in the game of the movie, and I thought it was awesome.

 

Well, Kenobi defeated Vader! Sure, Anakin essentially waxed his master, but Obi-Wan kept his cool and fought wisely.

Why would Vader defeat Windu based upon the above? I don't see the logic.

Vader had not yet learned to focus his rage and hatred. Had he been a bit more Sith-seasoned, I don't think that even Master Yoda would have been a match for a pre-suited Vader. But I would have loved to have seen Vader and Windu battle, and gladly been proved wrong by the un-chosen one slicing and dicing Master Mace.

ANAKIN: (slicing apart Wndu with parry and thrust) And THAT is for rejecting me as a padawan learner . . . THAT is for my mother . . . THAT is for dissing me when I was appointed to the council . . . and THAT is because you STILL didn't trust me, even after I squealed on Palaptine!

 

He would have DunMoch'd Mace from start to finish.
He would have made Windu suffer, for each one of those 'indignities' ObiChron mentioned.


VI'm telling you, Vader's focus would have been off the charts against Mace.
Once Sith, he would have hated Mace more than any other Jedi, even Kenobi. (until he showed up w/ Padme on Mustafar of course) Vader would beat Mace with his mechno-hand, just because.

 

Vader would try, but fail. He may have the raw power of Sidious, but he lacks the focus and Mace's Vapaad would make him able to defeat Anakin. Mace beat the Dark Lord, I see no reason he couldn't beat the apprentice.

Anakin's emotions would get in his way with Mace as he would be too passionate about killing him and would slip up, which would be all the Jedi Master needed to take him down as he did Sidious.

 

If DV tapped into his dark side and/or had the element of surprise, he'd most likely win. Otherwise, it would probably be a lot like Vader v. Obi-Wan in Mustafar, where Vader could dominate but eventually became overconfident.

 

I don't see why given that Mace is significantly more powerful than Obi-Wan was. He's shown to be on par with Palpatine just like Vader is supposed to be according to Lucas/Gillard.

 

Co Sign

The defense rests

 

The defense loses.

 

Yep, it's just further evidence of why Mace Windu is the single most underrated Jedi. People don't like that a Prequel-only character legitimately did what Yoda could not.

 

Mace isn't perfect. Nor does he have anywhere near Anakin's potential. Nobody but Yoda even comes close. He is a very skilled duelist, but, so is Anakin. And, Anakin would have a huge advantage over Mace. Mace believes he is the Chosen One. Knowing that Anakin is to (eventually) destroy the Sith, Mace would think that he can't beat Anakin. He certainly cannot kill him, killing him before the prophecy is fulfilled would mean the Sith do not get destroyed. If Mace decides then that Anakin isn't the Chosen One, then self-doubt would enter into his mind, as he was the chief proponent after Qui-Gon that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One. If he finds out he was wrong about it for the past 14 years, he will doubt himself. But, considering Anakin is the Chosen One, (I still say it makes more sense for Luke and Leia to be the Chosen Ones) Mace Windu would have to believe he was capable of killing him. He refused to kill Count Dooku, he might hold back against Anakin to defeat him without killing him too. Mace believes Anakin is the Chosen One. Anakin however, has no reason to hold back against Mace. He wouldn't hesitate to kill the Jedi Master.

Just Mace knowing Anakin is the Chosen One puts Anakin at a huge psychological advantage. Anakin believes he can defeat anyone, which, as Yoda points out in TESB, belief is a major factor in using the Force. Luke doesn't believe he can lift the X-Wing, and Yoda tells him that is why he failed. Anakin doesn't have that problem, to the point where it could be considered cocky. Mace Windu however, wouldn't necessarily believe that he is capable of defeating the Chosen One. If he can't believe fully that he can do it, he loses, period.

 

You're making an assumption that Mace would believe Vader was the Chosen One. Obi-Wan gives up hope that he's the Chosen One once he falls, so I see no reason Mace who has far greater skepticism of Anakin wouldn't come to the same conclusion. He may have been the primary proponent of Anakin three years ago, but the Clone Wars changed things for many Jedi, especially Mace. Seeing that Anakin had become Darth Vader would have simply confirmed his doubts, removing whatever doubt he had. Mace would believe he was mistaken, and that his original agreement with Yoda that Skywalker shouldn't trained was correct. Vader would fight because he hates Mace for 'holding him back' while Mace would fight to correct his mistake.

Anakin has his cockyness, but Mace isn't exactly short on self-confidence either. He is the guy who believed the Sith couldn't have returned without the Jedi knowing.

 

Where does Obi-Wan state that he no longer believes Anakin is the Chosen One?
"You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!" That? That's just Obi-Wan being frustrated that Anakin was deliberately going against his destiny...thats not Obi-Wan saying we were wrong, Qui Gon was wrong, you aren't the Chosen One, you are just a normal Jedi afterall...Obi-Wan believes 100% that Anakin is the Chosen One, he is just expressing frustration that Anakin has turned from the path. Otherwise, I challenge you to find me evidence from the films that states Obi-Wan stopped believing. In the OT, maybe...when he thinks he can maybe bypass the prophecy, by using Anakin's son instead? Like substituting Will Turner's blood instead of Bootstrap Bill's? I would argue that any evidence from the OT, which would be limited to Obi-Wan telling Luke he has to destroy Vader, is flawed. (No Chosen One in 1977-83, plus, it can be explained as Obi-Wan trying to circumvent the prophecy by using the son of the Chosen One for in-universe explanation)

I also wouldn't use the Clone Wars as proof that Obi-Wan was doubting Anakin. If anything, it convinced him even more. He was right there as he watched Anakin pull amazing feats. He saw personally, Anakin doing things that were by all rights and means, impossible, even for a Jedi. He witnessed Anakin being the greatest warrior in the galaxy, hardly proof that he doubted...It was during the Clone Wars that Anakin went from padawan, to arguably as strong as a Jedi Master. Had Anakin displayed more patience, he could have been on the Council at age 23. He was certainly strong enough in the Force. Obi-Wan was there to see Anakin grow in the Force by leaps and bounds, faster than any Jedi should. He witnessed Anakin's raw talent day in and day out. If anything, Obi-Wan and Anakin's exploits during the Clone Wars would have convinced him that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One.

 

The only way that Vader, before the suit can beat Mace is if he doesn't lose control like he did on Mustafar. Vader let his emotions carry him and let his arrogance cloud his judgment. If he fought like he does in ANH and TESB, then he would defeat even Mace Windu.

 

Hey I may accept that anakin's fighting style looked fancier, but maul's looked more fancy than dooku's but he wasnt stronger than dooku. anyone who says that vader or anakin could have defeated mace windu is complete and utterly wrong. Listen to your selfs. Vader was never stronger than palpatine (hell, in the OT he's 80% as strong as palpatine. and in the OT he's stronger than he was in the PT.) and if I recall correctly mace did beat palpy

I concur... he is overrated... but he is the strongest jedi in the PT and IMO the best in the saga(that is the 6 movies, excluding the EU)

 

Exept from knowledge, Anakin holds the cards here. He's faster, physicaly stronger, more stamina, better reflexes....
In ROTS Anakin is a really bad ass solider, the best warrior ever seen.

So I really doubt Mace would have beaten Anakin.