Could the showdown on Coruscant have been choreographed better? I thought all of the duels in the Star Wars saga were awesome, including Master Windu versus the Chancellor. However, during the initial arrest, I know they are trying to give off the impression that the Dark Lord of the Sith is extremely powerful, but could it not have been displayed something like this? I understand everything happens quickly, but it would have taken a minute more at most: Palpatine: I am the Senate! Mace Windu: Not yet. Palpatine: [Stands, and allows a lightsaber to slide into his hand] It's treason then.. [Palpatine leaps at the Jedi upwards much as Vader leapt down at Luke in the Carbon Freezing Chamber in The Empire Strikes Back with his arms extended. Although Windu readies his lightsaber, a strong Dark side force push temporarily pushes him backward [instead of him stepping back as in the film) At the same time, two of the Chancellor's statues begin to move either side of the Jedi distracting Kit Fisto as one of them hits him in the back [again like how Vader threw things at Luke]. Palpatine lands before the 3 Jedi Masters and ignites the lightsaber in his hand to stab Agen Kolar in the chest [like in the film], a hole appears in the other statue as a second lightsaber shoots out, ignites and kills Sasee Tiin from behind. Palpatine receives the second lightsaber through the Force as he swirls toward Kit Fisto and Master Windu renegages (much like in the actual sequence). Windu is forced back slightly owing to the range of the two red blades (like he has to in the film). Fisto still panics, but (unlike in the film) manages to take out one of Palpatine's lightsabers through a swipe. But this is revealed to be a ploy by the Sith Lord as he dispatches with the Jedi using a violent swipe of his remaining lightsaber. Windu then engages Palpatine head on knowing he has to do what needs to be done. Then we move to the fight between the great Jedi Master and Sith Lord as the film showed. What do you think?
I was with you up till here. The actual fight between Mace and Palpatine was terrible, maybe worse then the other Jedi Master's fodderising.
This would probably have been awesome, but I'll always prefer a movie where the creator does it his/her way.
That sounds very cool. I think the main problem with the choreography of the original scene is the fact that they did not use slow-motion. Although they were trying to show the audience that Sidious is so fast that the Jedi couldn't react, what is conveyed instead is 2 Jedi standing there and waiting to be stabbed. If they used slow-motion like in the Matrix for example, it would've more easily conveyed that message. Besides that, I really like your statue idea because it is reminiscent of TESB.
I think the Statues moving seems a tad silly to be honest but then again I'm a sucker for the enigmatic, elusive Sistros so maybe that is why
I like how Kit Fisto looks so scared during the whole fight. He's always on the defensive and is trying so hard to keep up. I really feel sorry for the guy.
I wouldn't change the scene at this point, but I think it could have been done a little bit better. A Force stun to somehow momentarily incapacitate Saesee and Agen would be neat and explain how they were so slow when Sidious struck them down. Or, they could rejoin the fight a moment later and that's when Sidious takes them out immediately. I do like the idea of Sidious using two lightsabers as he did in TCW. But as is, the scene doesn't bother me too much.
I think the main problem with the scene is that it's primary shot with close-ups, so you don't really get a sense of the choreography at all. When the three Jedi masters die, you don't really see anything happen except for sudden shots of them flailing their arms up and falling to the ground. It looks like they did very little to defend themselves, because the camera didn't show you anything to suggest otherwise. I've always had a suspicion that Nick Gillard devoted so much of his time to the Mustafar duel that they didn't have much pre-planned choreography for this scene, so Lucas just decided to shoot it vague enough to not notice. I mean, that's probably not what actually happened, but that's what it looks like to me. EDIT: I just rewatched the duel, and I want to revise my statement a bit. I do think the scene has way to many "Jason Bourne" mid fight close ups that only obscure the motion of the scene (seriously, almost everything is shot from the shoulders up, which really doesn't make for gratifying lightsaber action), but sadly what actually makes the Jedi deaths so laughable is the pacing of the choreography itself. It's the same issue that I and many others have with the Obi-Wan flip 'n slash at the end of TPM; you have person "A" making very grand, telegraphed moves that should be pretty easy to defend or dodge, and you have person "B" doing absolutely nothing in defense. That first lunge that Palpatine takes against Eeth Koth takes about 2 and a half seconds (an ETERNITY) and not only does Eeth not step to the side or do literally anything to avoid being stabbed, but the other three Jedi surrounding Palpatine do nothing while he stands there in his prolonged "I'm about to stab someone" pose. If you want to rationalize it, and explain some lore-based reason why Palpatine dispatched with those three Jedi masters with such effort and such little resistance, then fine, if that makes you happy. But you shouldn't have to analyze and rationalize an action sequence after the fact just so that it can make sense on a basic level. Scenes like this need to cinematically work in the moment, and this one kind of dropped the ball at that. This was not ROTS's finest hour.
To be honest, I thought their fight was all right, except for the CGI Palpatine face, which I only noticed on DVD. It was pretty thrilling and I liked the climax with Windu besting him and then Anakin being the one who made the fateful choice for the entire galaxy. The only thing is in the original trilogy part of the Emperor's power as a character is his aura and sheer power. You don't want too much lightsaber fighting or jumping around by him. I see Windu as someone who uses his saber. Yoda as someone who uses his mind and the Force.
Of course, I agree with you and I really respect GL for his creation. He gave us Star Wars after all! I still loved the movie and remember going to the cinema to see it. It was still epic, just wish some of the lines had been better delivered, not necessarily changed in terms of content. I thought the story was awesome.
That's something they could have tried yes! I know, I think it looks bad because 2 Jedi really do literally just stand there. Kit Fisto would look all right if he hadn't been standing and watching that happen. What was needed was a reason that one was taken out so quickly. I can understand one being taken out by Palpatine jumping there and then stabbing them, but to have the time to do it again makes the Council Masters look downright silly. I know right! The statue idea would have been epic. Still love TESB scene. Who knows, maybe if someone suggests it to George Lucas they can reshoot a special edition at some point!
I couldn't agree more with your comment! Well said and put! I think that part where Palpatine does the stab attack move looks really bad. It's a shame, because the story and the film were epic, but with a few tweaks to that choreography it would have been super epic. I agree now you mention it the shots were quite close up. I was suggesting the second lightsaber hidden in a statue to explain how a second Jedi is taken out by surprise. I mean he uses the stab move twice, I mean I'm surprised Palpatine didn't just do it a third time for Kit Fisto! It's a shame, because the other fight scenes looked really good. I liked how we had a final showdown between Windu and Palpatine and the climax where the latter is bested and Anakin has to make the fateful choice, but it would have been better had the other three been dispatched in a more dignified way. It is still a fairly important scene. This is the first time we see Palpatine, the powerful Emperor we see in the original triliogy, in action. I think the CGI faces of Palpatine also spoilt it a little. Couldn't they have filmed it slower with less swirly moves? I mean I don't see the same CGI faces in the original triliogy during lightsaber battles. The battle between Darth Vader and Obi Wan on the Death Star for instance may not have extremely complicated moves, but it still resonates powerfully with the audience. Can someone suggest the changes that everyone has suggested to GL/Disney and hope they reshoot a limited edition sequence?
What really happened was that Gillard did spend time with Samuel L. Jackson and Michael Byrne, who was Ian McDiarmid's double, setting up the fight. But Lucas decided shortly before filming the duel that he wanted Ian to do the work, rather than just Byrne. Ian had little experience with sword fighting to begin with and not a lot of time to practice it. Only a small amount of the final film relied on Byrne. The more complex maneuvers that Palpatine did was Byrne, while the rest was Ian. There was no CGI faces in the OT duels. What you saw was what was filmed. Hamill did all but one shot in TESB and both Prowse and Anderson kept the helmet on while Vader was visible and had it off, when we saw close ups of Luke only. On the PT, CGI faces were used for a couple of shots in TPM, and all of Dooku's wide shots in AOTC and ROTS. Though there it was due to Lee being unable to jump, run, or backpedal by that point. Plus, he had limited mobility in his shoulders.
interesting, I just saw this pic in another topic. I guess Anakin was initially supposed to be in that whole scene?
The arrest of Palpatine was my least favorite lightsaber fight of all 6 movies (thus far). Even the duel between mace and Palpatine after the other 3 Jedi were killed seemed strange when compared to all the other duels. I fully understand what Lucas was trying to show us when Palpatine cut down the other 3 jedi so fast, however, it just didn't come across very well. I think it all boils down to Mcdiarmid's age and how it limited what they could really do. Now, I know that they used a stunt double and com-posited Mcdiarmids face over the stunt doubles, but, that in of itself must limit what could be done in the fight. The entire fight from start to finish seems slow, slower than any of the other PT duels. Han Burgundy I think you make a very valid point as well. I remember reading or watching somewhere that they had problems with the arrest scene because Kit, and Saesee couldn't hold their lightsabers because of the rubber gloves. They had just figured it out when they tried shooting the scene, so they never choreographed anything for the arrest scene before that as they would have figured it out well before they tried shooting the scene. So my guess is they just figured that scene out as they went along.
Correct. Much of Act II was different. What was written and shot originally was that Anakin was made a full Jedi Master by the Council. His motives for wanting to turn concern more on his wanting power for power's sake and mistrusting the Jedi, than it was wanting to save Padme. When Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, Anakin does not leave for the Temple to inform Mace. Instead, he stays. Obi-wan, meanwhile, witnesses Darth Sidious appearing as a hologram before the Separatist Council and Grievous, which is when Obi-wan recognizes that Sidious is Palpatine. He backs off and informs Mace and Yoda. This then leads to Mace and the Jedi Posse to confront Palpatine. Mace tells Anakin to step away from Palpatine, but he refuses. Palpatine then stands up and uses Anakin's Lightsaber to fight the Jedi. Anakin follows the battle out into the outer office, where he interferes while Palpatine and Mace are in a stand off with the Sith Lightning. There is no exaggeration of weakness on Palpatine's part. The blasts end and Mace goes for the kill, at which point Anakin picks up his saber and attacks Mace, cutting off his hand. Palpatine then blasts Mace. This was shot in 2003, but the following year, Lucas changed it as his friends said that Anakin's decision to turn should be right during the stand off and that there should be a greater emphasis on why he would betray the Jedi. In the final film, you can see parts of Anakin's Lightsaber being held by Ian.
I liked the Mace and Palpatine duel for the most part. It was a slower, more cautious duel more in line with the OT. Though closeups and some strange CGI moments from Palpatine messed with the flow. Overall, re-editing the scene would do wonders, even as Palpatine kills the three extra Jedi - give Palpatine less gloating time early on, and maybe it could be brought up to a better speed.
I'd love it if they one day released an alternate version of ROTS with the way things originally went down. But that'll likely never happen.
Let's put it this way: They could not have choreographed that scene any worse. Any minor changes could improve it tremendously.
I loved the Mace/Palpatine duel. Mace has such a unique style of fighting. It's got a real "move like a butterfly, sting like a bee" vibe to it, and it's cool.
Same here. I thought it was an epic showdown and represented the turning point in the entire saga. This was make or break for the light and dark side. I really enjoyed the Mace and Palpatine duel to be honest. The only thing is I wished they had made the other 3 Jedi deaths look better. I suggested some changes in my OP. It would have made the whole fight sequence look slick, rather than have a clumsy start. It would have been better to have less CGI Palpatine though. The part at the end with Mace and the Chancellor near the window was awesome!!
So would I. Wish it would. Someone needs to suggest it next Star Wars Day or at Comicon to GL. Lol. A few minor changes is what it needs. It is a shame since the Showdown is a critical point in not just ROTS but the entire saga. The climax (Anakin's turn) is critical. I would look better if there hadn't been a clumsy start. It's the 3 jedi deaths that let it down. If they had been different (I suggested some changes in my OP at the top) rather than the same Palpatine stab move where he takes an eternity to move his blade back and then forwards and the others do nothing to defend, then it would have been slicker. The Mace and Palpatine one was fine in my opinion. Only thing is they should have slowed it down to have less CGI face Palpatine. Part of the charm of the old movies was the reality of it. The Darth Vader and Obi Wan scene on the Death Star was slow, but still poignant after all. Likewise. I thought this part of the fight was epic. Master Windu's moves and the window climax was superb. Just wished there had been a less clumsy start to get down to these two fighting each other. I suggested some changes at the top in my OP with the Jedi on the left still being stabbed. However, Sassee Tiin would have been killed from a second lightsaber emerging from one of Palpatine's numerous statues behind him. It would have flashed through his chest from behind. Windu would have been forced backward from the fight by a Force push as Palpatine had leapt toward the Jedi so that the most experienced and skilled swordmaster could not help his colleagues. In terms of Fisto, rather than have him die like that, a second statue would have been thrown at him to distract him (like Vader does to Luke in TESB) and when Palpatine has killed both the Jedi on the left and right with each lightsaber, he collect both and attacks Fisto. Fisto attempts to defend himself still (like in the film), but manages to at least destroy one of Palpatine's lightsabers. Palpatine swipes and kills Fisto (like in the film) as Windu comes back to the fight. Then the scene resumes. Epic but slightly clumsy start turns to much slicker start and links back to the old films too? Thoughts?
That's why I really really like the duel. They are not just swinging the lightsabers furiously towards each other. Though I don't have a problem with that, I just don't feel Mace vs Sidious was an occasion to do so. These are two senior masters and it's more like a game of chess, where every move is extremely cautious and precise.
