Count Dooku seems to be....

Count Dooku seems to be the most out of place character in the starwars universe, hes kind of an apprentice and he has an alter ego guy named Darth Tyrannus... we still arent sure if hes really a bad guy, he kind of is fightning to freedom just like the rebel in the OT

can anyone offer some insight into his role into the starwars saga or is this another annoying question that wont get answered until episode 3?

 

He's a Sith lord, plain and simple... he has long kept his Sith identity a secret, just like Palpatine...

 

For viewers who have not seen the OT, Dooku serves as a guide for understanding Anakin's eventual downfall. His character introduces the concept of a Jedi turning to the dark side. He even wears a cape and speaks deeply like Vader does.

 

Ahh thats a interesting point, so dooku is illustrated what it means to fall to the darkside eh? thats cool

 

Well that's my thoughts anyway. Lucas has stated that the correct viewing order for these movies is 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6. In that case, Dooku helps to understand what will happen to Anakin.

I always thought that Dooku's great line, "It may be difficult to secure your release" was Vaderesque in style. It has the same dry wit as "Apology accepted, Captain Needa"

 

Lucas needed a character for the anual saber duel that happens in every movie,thus-he whipped up the concept of Dooku overnight.

 

I don't think Dooku's character sits right. For instance, Vader hates the name Anakin - "that name has no meaning for me anymore" and even Obi-Wan calls him 'Darth' to his face.

Yet Dooku is happy to be called Dooku, and (whilst it's probably because GL wanted a plot twist element) it was only at the very end that he was ever called Tyranus. I think that most people who watched the movie once will have missed that.

He doesn't look cool in his costume like a Sith Lord should either. And his absence in TPM makes his arrival in AOTC feel a little disjointed.

He uses force lightning which (for the moment) puts him on a par with Palpatine (ROTJ), and he completely ruins the argument that the fights in the OT weren't that great because they were between crippled cyborgs (Vader), Jedi learners (Luke) and old men (Obi-Wan). Well, the "old man" argument went out of the window when Dooku whipped Anakin and Obi-Wan. So now OT Obi-Wan looks like he's never held a lightsaber in his life.


So I completely agree that Dooku seemed like a last minute, and that he doesn't sit too well.

 

For instance, Vader hates the name Anakin - "that name has no meaning for me anymore" and even Obi-Wan calls him 'Darth' to his face.
Dooku may not have had the traumatic things happen in his life that make Anakin completely block out his past. Obi-Wan feels there is no hope at all of turning Vader, hence he does'nt even call him by his given, "lightside" name.

[/i]Yet Dooku is happy to be called Dooku[/i]

Well he needs to be to pull of his various scams. He can't very well go around letting everyone know he is a Sith. I doubt the TF, as dumb as they are, would knowingly go in with a Sith again after how things turned out for them with Sid.

 

Count Dooku is a former Jedi, who has now joined Darth Sidious, and has himself become a sith lord, who plans to over throw his master. Simple, eh?

 

If Count Dooku was a good guy, why would GL cast Christopher Lee as him, CL ALWAYS plays the bad guy.

 

Darth_Zidious, your comment about the viewing order of the SW saga (which of course is 1 - 6) suddenly made me realize this: Most of us have watched the OT prior to the PT, so even before TPM, we already know what a Jedi is, what the Force is, what s Sith is, what's gonna happen to Anakin, etc... but just pause for a moment and imagine that you have never watched the OT (or anything remotely connected to SW - books, games, toys, etc...) and that TPM is the first SW movie you've ever watched and the first time you've ever come into contact with the SW universe... wow, I think I would have been totally lost as to what's going on!! i.e. What on earth is the Force? Why are those "Jedi" characters so powerful?? Who are the Sith and why are they the Jedi's enemy? Who is that phantom guy in the robe? Etc... the questions are endless! For a person who has never heard of SW before TPM, I think the movie would have been one big puzzle... and watching AOTC would have simply added more questions to the puzzle, such as the main topic of this thread (i.e. what is Dooku's role in all this?)

Methinks had Lucas created the movies in their correct order... TPM and AOTC may have been very different indeed... as Lucas would have needed to introduce the concept of the Force, Jedi, Sith etc... much more clearly (e.g. he introduced the concept of the Force and Jedi Knights in ANH through the scenes with Ben and Luke). The way he's done TPM and AOTC so far, it assumes an earlier exposure to and understanding of the SW universe, which most viewers have anyway of course, but somehow, it may have modified how the movies would have been presented otherwise (not that it's made me like TPM or AOTC any less as a result though..)

Ok, enough of rambling... just a thought...

 

It's amazing the ridiculous lengths people go to in order to complain.

...Vader hates the name Anakin... Yet Dooku is happy to be called Dooku...

Because unlike Vader, he has to hide his Sith identity. Duh!

And his absence in TPM makes his arrival in AOTC feel a little disjointed.

Like Yoda's sudden appearance in ESB after he was never mentioned in ANH? Duh!

Dooku's behavior, dress and demeanor all foreshadow the entrance of Vader on the stage. He's a perfect fit.

 

that TPM is the first SW movie you've ever watched and the first time you've ever come into contact with the SW universe... wow, I think I would have been totally lost as to what's going on!!

I don't agree with this. I think enough is there in TPM (the opening scroll, the comments by Nute and his sidekick about their fear of the Jedi, etc). Besides, movies do not need to explain absolutely everything through exposition. You learn as you watch the movie. That's part of the fun.

In the Matrix, for example, you are just dropped right in the middle of it. It's part of the enjoyment.

 

Count Dooku is a bad guy pure and simple...

He is working with Sidious to create this "war" so that Palpatine can secure his power and rule over the Republic.

This war was created by Palpatine in order for him to:

a) Get his "limited" emergency powers that Palpatine has no intention of setting down once the war is over and?.

b) Using the army that Palpatine (more or less) ordered ten years ago. This whole war is an elaborate scheme that was planned in great detail and in addition to giving him the power to do whatever he wants, the war also gave Palpatine the excuse to create an army for the Republic not so much to win the Clone Wars... but for his future Empire to secure his reign and be the enforcers of ol' Palpatine.


Palpatine couldn't really be the head of the Republic and the head of the Separists now could he? It would kinda defeat his master plan of creating the Seperatits for his war? After all the Seperatists were destined to loose from the get go. That is where Dooku comes in, who is in league with Palpatine to orchestrate the whole war that would give rise to the Empire, while Palptine will act as ?innocent? and keep his hands clean.

Remember... bad guys do not think of themselves as bad guys. I am sure Dooku thinks that once he and Sidious gain control of the galaxy that the Sith ways of doing things are superior.



Oh well, I probably made no sense what-so-ever in this post, so whatever. I think Dooku fits in the Star Wars Saga quite nicely and makes sense to me at least.

 

Darth_Zidious - I'm sorry if I sounding like I was complaining , I was only trying to discuss .

Your points are totally valid, but this thread is about how we feel Dooku sits in the movie and in the saga, and I feel (as others do) that Dooku's character doesn't feel quite right yet.

As a general comment on the PT, from someone that hasn't embraced EU but has watched the films an awful lot of times, it has disappointed and surprised me just how much has been taken away from the OT characters. The lightsaber duels make OT Vader & Obi-Wan look very unskilled for example. The presence of new Sith Lords reduce Vaders uniqueness (for me) - especially Dooku who is also a fallen Jedi. And when Dooku used force lightening, it reduced the impact of Palpatine's powers in ROTJ.

So all the comments relate to the way I feel rather than matter-of-fact statements. I won't love SW any less for these things.

 

As I stated before... I personally understand Count Dooku's role in the PT, but I can also see where those who don't are coming from.

IMO I personally believe that Tarkin would have been a better choice for Count Dooku's role and there are infinite reasons why this would make more sense.

HOWEVER! I have not seen Episode III yet so there maybe yet a big piece of his characters purpose missing. I do tend to agree that the reason Lucas made the head of the seperatists a Sith Lord was more or less for the lightsaber duel. If I were writing the sricpt I would sacrifice the lightsaber duel in Episode II and go all out for the Episode III in terms of dueling. IMO Dooku SHOULD have been Tarkin.

But I am not going to let this bother me. Even if Episode III doesn't more justify the presence of his character I am still a HUGE fan of the PT and I know through time will learn to look past this "mistake".

 

"we still arent sure if hes really a bad guy"

Yeah he's a real saint, starting wars, chopping off hands, and trying to execute people.

 

Ret...starting wars (Jar-Jar?)...chopping off hands (Obi-Wan?)... trying to execute people (er.. OK, I'm stuck now!!)...

 

...and I feel (as others do) that Dooku's character doesn't feel quite right yet.

An opinion for which you (and the 'others') have completely failed to give any good reason for holding. I have given specific reasons for why he fits in perfectly.

The lightsaber duels make OT Vader & Obi-Wan look very unskilled for example.

Obi-Wan just needs to hold Vader off until Luke can escape. And then he gives up his life. There is nothing wrong with the fight. This isn't World Wide Wrestling, it's about deeper concepts.

The presence of new Sith Lords reduce Vaders uniqueness (for me)...

Vader, the fatherless chosen one who falls from grace, is the very definition of unique.

And when Dooku used force lightening, it reduced the impact of Palpatine's powers in ROTJ.

It's not World Wide Wrestling. There is a lot more going on than merely which powers they can use. The story is a lot deeper than that. You are focusing on surface details, and therefore missing the whole point. You are free to do so, of course, but then it's not George's fault that you feel this way.

 

Darth Zidious, it is fine that you think Darth Tyranus seems to fit in the SW saga but I really agree with vladmir in saying he seems to of been thrown in there.

Count Dooku and the DT connection is very muffled in that little scene at the end and most people I see AotC with don't understand/care/bother with it. I don't even really care that Dooku is a sith. His place is too awkward for me as well. I don't know why they didn't expand on his Darth Tyranus part more (perhaps having him tell Yoda his new identity) because he has a red sabre, I think we all figured out he wasn't good...

 

Count Dooku and the DT connection is very muffled in that little scene at the end and most people I see AotC with don't understand/care/bother with it. I don't even really care that Dooku is a sith. His place is too awkward for me as well. I don't know why they didn't expand on his Darth Tyranus part more (perhaps having him tell Yoda his new identity) because he has a red sabre, I think we all figured out he wasn't good...

Your statement doesn't comment in any way on how the character of Dooku does or does not fit into the story. You are complaining about issues unrelated to this point.

 

well then...

Count Dooku seems out of place because his character is never fully understood or realized! Perhaps in ep. 3 it will come together but in AotC he is nothing more than "some guy" in most people's eyes and in mine.

 

Count Dooku seems out of place because his character is never fully understood or realized!

That is a separate complaint. "Out of place" means he somehow doesn't fit. His character is not "out of place". As for being "never fully understood or realized", well, there are plenty of characters like that in these movies. The emperor pops up in ESB with little explanation, for example.

Perhaps in ep. 3 it will come together...

Exactly.

but in AotC he is nothing more than "some guy" in most people's eyes and in mine.

Let me see if I have this straight. The opening crawl informs us that the separatists are under the control of the mysterious Count Dooku. Padme says she thinks he is the one after her. Mace explains to us that he was once a Jedi. We see Dooku explicitly deal with the Trade Federation and other nasties about threatening the Republic with a droid army. We see Dooku tell Obi-Wan about one of the crucial plot lines in the movie. We find out Dooku was Qui-Gon's master. We see Dooku complicit with (and probably in charge of) the execution of our heroes. We see Dooku in charge when he stops, and then restarts all of the droids fighting our heroes. We see Dooku fight our heroes with a red lightsaber (just like Darth Maul). We see him try to kill Obi-Wan but is stopped by Anakin. He cuts off the hand of our hero. He threatens to kill Yoda. Yoda informs us that he is using the dark side. We see Dooku meet with Sidious and we find out he is Darth Tyranus, the same man who hired Jango Fett. Ahhh, it all comes together now. Sidious and Tyranus are in league to start a war for their own nefarious purposes.

All of this and you saw him as just some guy. I would suggest that the problem lies not with the movie, but elsewhere.

 

Darth Zidious - much anger there is in you.

We aren't complaining, but you seem to be. Please, forget about the 'complaining' thing - we are not complaining!


So, to continue with the surface detail, and further miss the point of the SW films, it's a neat idea that Yoda and Obi-Wan become exile buddies (of a sort) and they've both lost apprentices to the dark side - though I suspect Dooku was Yoda's padawan like all the Jedi kiddies are, not in the same sense as the older Jedi padawans (Obi-Wan in TPM and Anakin in AOTC).

Kinda funny though that Obi-Wan says of Anakin "I thought I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong". Funny how we forget things as we get old isn't it?


I'm starting to develop this picture of Obi-Wan and Yoda becoming separating from the council - maybe even expelled? In another thread there was talk of a Jedi council split. Mace Windu gets all uppity when the republic falls and takes control of the council! Then Anakin rushes in and kills everyone except Obi-Wan and Yoda (who are drowning their sorrows in a Coruscent drinking den, in disbelief at getting the sack for their bad teaching skills!)

There is a lot to look forward to in episode III.

 

ALWAYS TWO THERE ARE.
Dooku is
1. The Emperor's apprentice
2. The Bad guy in AOTC
3. Proof that the Jedi can turn to the darkside. Earlier in AOTC Mace and some other Jedi mention that Dooku is a political idealist and could NEVER attempt to take someone's life.
4. A foreshadow of Darth Vader. Booming voice. Tall. Black robes.

I think Lee did a outstanding job as Dooku.
Considering that he's 80. 80. 80.

"Ive become more powerful than any Jedi...even YOU."


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