Count Dooku...Was he TRULY Evil?

I've been thinking about this since seeing AotC in the theater and something just isn't making sense to me.

First, I won't argue that Dooku isn't a bad person, but his behavior just doesn't match up with anything seen from other "evil" beings. Infact, the more I think about it, the more I think Dooku is exactly what Luke became in Dark Empire. Dark by his own arrogance in thinking he could stop Sidious. Here's my reasoning.

Let's first take a look at Luke in DE1 since that came first. Luke felt the only way to beat the DS was to learn about it from within. He felt he was strong enough not to succum, but he didn't. He was caught, having to go deeper and deeper until he couldn't pull back. He ende dup as Emp's apprentice until Leia w/ unborn Annie came along to rescue him.

Now let's look at Dooku.

His former student dies at the hand of a Sith. He leaves the Jedi Order and the Republic because he feels they aren't doing what's needed. So he's got motive for his actions and a grudge against the Republic/Jedi for not changing their views.

Throughout AotC we see moments where he truly could be Dark and evil, and yet he doesn't. He has Obi-Wan captive. Does he kill him? No. Instead, he tells Obi-Wan the TRUTH about Palpasidious. during their hanger duel he could have easily killed both Anakin and Obi. And he doesn't. The only reason he even brought that machinery down on them was to escape Yoda. The more I watch his actions, the mor eI think he's trying to do only what he has to to please Sidious and keep his trust. why else tell the truth or spare enemies? I dunno, seems reminesient of Luke in DE to me.

What do you all think? It's just a theory, but I find it intriguing.

 

I shouldn't think not killing people is necessarily a qualification of virtue. One of the hallmarks of classic villains is that they like to lord it over the good guys, generally to their eventual detriment. Obi-wan he wanted to convert, presumably with the intent of making him his Sith apprentice when Sidious died (however that would have ended up happening); then during the duel he hadn't had quite enough time to gloat properly before Yoda came in.

He could have a very good reason to tell Obi-wan the truth about Sidious; first of all, the likelihood is that Obi-wan wouldn't believe him (which was the case); and secondly, if he did, then Dooku could have used him to get rid of Sidious and become the Sith Master himself. Bad guys don't usually trust one another, and for good reason...

 

Hmmm...tough question.

I think that he truly was opposed to the republic, and he did want to create his own empire-state free of the beurocratic issues of the OR (Of course, he would be creating his own set of new beurocratic problems, since the seperatists really are the biggest lobbyist group in the universe)

I don't think he wanted to wipe out the Jedi like Palpatine did. He didn't have any sort of inborn hate like Maul, but he didn't care for their own lack of vision and the corruption which was pervading the order in its last days.

Many of his actions are less than honorable (just look at the company that he kept) I think that his dream was honorable: extermination of the darkest aspect of the Sith, restoring the republic, and if that is not possible, isolating it where it can do no more harm, and bringing the Jedi back into balance (Perhaps he was a secret follower of the Potentium, and didn't believe that studying Sith teaching was evil)

Regardless, the means by which he wanted to achieve his goals hardly justified the ends.

 

I shouldn't think not killing people is necessarily a qualification of virtue. One of the hallmarks of classic villains is that they like to lord it over the good guys, generally to their eventual detriment.

I'm assuming you mean gloat in the sum of it =P. and if that were the case, notice he didn't. He simply spoke the truth and walked off.

Obi-wan he wanted to convert, presumably with the intent of making him his Sith apprentice when Sidious died (however that would have ended up happening); then during the duel he hadn't had quite enough time to gloat properly before Yoda came in.

Again, Dooku doesn't really seem like the time to gloat. Look at the Arena battle...not once did he gloat, even when it looked like Anakin/Padme/Obi were done for. That's another thing that seems to set him apart. Dooku is a very reserved person overall.

He could have a very good reason to tell Obi-wan the truth about Sidious; first of all, the likelihood is that Obi-wan wouldn't believe him (which was the case)

Actually Obi was seriously considering it. It took Yoda's quick denial to passify Obi enough to drop the issue when he inquired about the validity of it.

and secondly, if he did, then Dooku could have used him to get rid of Sidious and become the Sith Master himself. Bad guys don't usually trust one another, and for good reason...

I see it differently. If he had believed him and followed through with it. He would have been acting for perfectly just reasons; simply helping Dooku rid the galaxy of a Sith Lord. there really shouldn't have been any dark side lurings involved on Obi's part.

And if Dooku were to try and betray him, and declare himself the new sith lord, I see little sense in it, especally then and there. What would be the point?

Unlike Palpasidious, he wouldn't have the ability to manipulate both sides (the Republic AND Seperatists) and therefore would lose essentially half his army. Yes, he's still be in control of the Seperatists, but the Jedi and the Republic, now without Palpatine (unless of course he's a clone of Sidious, or vise versa and there's 2 about) would be under proper and "good" leadership.

Also, upon declaring himself Sith Lord, I would think Obi-wan would immediately try to stop him, and if he failed, I feel he'd manage to get away and warn the Jedi Council. and of course, without Palpasidious, no empire... and things would have been MUCH diff in a galaxy far far away...

 

Evil does not have to be blatantly evil to still be evil. Most of the big name evil character's we've seen in the SW movies have been blatantly so. Dooku is different. It seems that he may prefer to hide who he really is to try to get others to side with him. He wasn't trying to bring down Palpatine/Sidious when he told Obi-Wan the truth about the Sith being in control of the Republic Senate, he was trying to get Obi-Wan to help take down the Senate.

 

I think you got it mostly right 7-7-7.

That's an impression I got as well. Dooku simply wanted to set up an independant government from the Republic.

This alone showed why the Republic was corrupt and why Dooku left. The Republic grew pitiful enough that it felt it would fall apart and collapse if it didn't maintain "control" (interresting choice of wording there that I believe they actually used in the movie...control...they felt they owned it and it was theirs to do with as they pleased....) of every planet it currently had.

These gave the attitude, at least to me, that the Republic did not care about the individual planet's freedom or right to self govern...If a planet wants to susseed, isn't that it's right?

 

Again, I'm not arguing Dooku didn't have an evil streak in him, or do bad things...but I see him like Luke in DE2...Falling to far in an attempt to thrawrt a greater evil when he felt he wouldn't fall, rather than a delibrate choice to go pro Sith

 

Count Dooku by his actions reveals his evil even as all of his EU appearences, mostly comics, seem to reinforce the idea that he is also sincere in his beliefs...

Let's look at his movie actions first

* Building an army to destroy the Republic, a helpless state

Palpatine is the enemy, not the Republic yet he's attacking an innocent organization when a surgical strike would remove its corrupt head.

The Separtist movement alone could have made a legitmate state free from corruption

* Aiding the Republic in acquiring an army to destroy his own people who trusted him

* Trying to assassinate Senator Amidala

* Murdering the Jedi Knighthood rather than surrendering his prisoners at Genosis

* Intending to execute The Jedi when they refused to bargain

* Building a Death Star

* Trying to kill Obi Wan while he was down and helpless

* severing Anakin's arm

* Turning the Death Star plans over to sideous and returning to his corner

Count Dooku must be aware of the fact that he's crossed several lines and is no longer out solely for the GOOD of the Republic/Jedi.

I believe he wants to be a Sith Lord now because he knows the Dark Side's power.

He considers himself Jedi *AND* Sith.

Actually according to the RPG, Coutn Dooku's motivations are based on his interpretation of the prophecy of the Chosen One and being a "balancer" jedi of equal light and evil. It's a pity this hasn't shown up in more standard sources.

Dooku believes in the Sith way but he's also it should be noted, appealed to for mercy by mentioning 'he's still a jedi' in his comci by Quilan Vos

 

Count Dooku by his actions reveals his evil even as all of his EU appearences, mostly comics, seem to reinforce the idea that he is also sincere in his beliefs...

I too agree he's sincere in his beliefs. Again, make no mistake. I do NOT believe he's a goody goody, nor fighting for the light side when we see him. I'm more or less questing the method of his falling, what he truly wanted out of it, wants now and the like... No, I do NOT believe he is fighting for the Republic or it's best interrests...

Let's look at his movie actions first

* Building an army to destroy the Republic, a helpless state

He didn't build it. He's just been leading it. Not that that justifies anything. But he himself didn't go out and build that army. Those were armies of t he Trade Federation and the Banking Clans....

Palpatine is the enemy, not the Republic yet he's attacking an innocent organization when a surgical strike would remove its corrupt head.

I disagree. While of course he knows palpatine is evil, I feel the reason he's sided with him is because there really wasn't a true way to face him any other way. He could not simply accuse Palpatine of evil doing, or kill the man, and expect everyone to simply take his word. He would need proof...hense why he would have joined with Palpy. To obtain such and to try and bring him down from within.... Also, I feel he believed that even without palpatine's guidence, the Republic government had decayed to the point where he wanted nothing to do with it.

The Separtist movement alone could have made a legitmate state free from corruption

No, because they were only in things to see the Republic fall and to conquer (gain power/favor with sidious) and had no desire for go settle down in their own independant planet and be all happy like...

* Aiding the Republic in acquiring an army to destroy his own people who trusted him

This actually helps support my theory, dealing with the threat from within. What better way to bring them down than to secretly help the Republic eliminate threats. Besides, it was no secret that the Trade Federation was aligned with the Sith at Naboo 10 years ago. If he truly was upset at Qui-Gon's death, this would be the best way to take down the Trade Fed since the Republic has failed to do so (another reason why he was fed up with the political aspects of the Republic).

* Trying to assassinate Senator Amidala

Okay, I have no defense for this one...yet

* Murdering the Jedi Knighthood rather than surrendering his prisoners at Genosis

Ah, but had he done so, he would have tipped off Palpasidious that he as a traitor, something Palpy would not forgive. Dooku probably assumed that the loss of the three would have justified his undercover status to achieve his goals. Again, This IS a dark side way of thinking. I don't question Dooku fell...I just don't feel he's dark in its totality...

* Intending to execute The Jedi when they refused to bargain

Considering the Jedi are threats to the Sith, there really shouldn't have been any bargining to begin with. This couldhave been a last chance for him to save his former collegues in his own mind...

* Building a Death Star

He didn't build it nor deisgn it. He's simply the messenger/carrier here...

* Trying to kill Obi Wan while he was down and helpless

* severing Anakin's arm

I don't think this would have happened had Yoda not come in... I feel he would have left. And let's remember. Anakin attacked first. You could easily have claimed that one in self defense...twisted kinda way to look at it, but it's true...from a certain point of view...

* Turning the Death Star plans over to sideous and returning to his corner

What would he have to gain by witholding them? considering it was Sidious who prob had the plans drawn up to begin with, and his idea....there really would be nothing to gain b not giving it to him..except a quick death from betrayal....

Count Dooku must be aware of the fact that he'

 

hmmm

Dooku identifies himself as Dark Lord of the Sith when he knocks around Ventres in the Clone Wars cartoon.

 

Dooku identifies himself as Dark Lord of the Sith when he knocks around Ventres in the Clone Wars cartoon.

Nope. Watch it again more carefully (not meant to sound sarcastic. I just watched it before replying to make sure myself...)

He NEVER referes to HIMSELF as a Sith. He certainly degrades her, states that SHE is not sith, and that Sidious is the true lord of the Sith, but NEVER refers to HIMSELF as Sith.

Also, I will acknowledge that he answers to the name Darth Tyrannus, a Sith name. However, I don't recall himself (in the movie, books or CW toons. Again, I miss out on the comics ) ever calling himself that name. I feel he does the bare minimum requirements to play his Role as Sidious' apprentice, but no more.

 

He's merely polite and equable. But villainous? For sure.

Not every villain has to be mad barking Vong, who can't speak calmly and coherently, and are compelled to physically hurl their bodies and ships at a sighted enemy.

And instead of shoving back he didn't hurl back Skywalker when the kid charged him in AOTC, he zapped him too.

 

I would say yes, particularly given the stories of the Republic / Jedi comics. Here we see Dooku torturing and killing Jedi, conspiring to split the Jedi, convert others, all the while leading the separatists and planning strategy.

I'm not sure if Dooku is true to himself any more. He has the public persopna you describe CD but what of his real nature? He has become so skilled at deceit he may lie to himself with ease.

Even if his public persona is his real one, it is one that says he will do whatever he likes for everyone else's own good, as defined by him. Such is the reality of noblesse oblige at heart.

I love the character, the PT has been in desperate need of a charismatic villain who could easily sway people to his cause, but he is a villain.

JB

 

Jedi: Count Dooku shows his evil side pretty well. He commits murder and torture when there are other alternatives, I'd add that up as a notch under the evil side.

 

That's what I'm getting at JT, the Jedi: Dooku comic really showcased this.

Yet if challenged on his acts I'm certain Dooku would claim it is for the greater good, or necessary, and you may find yourself believing him as he tells you his reasons.

BUT...He is also Darth Tyranus, he does what Sidious orders and, in this case, Sidious' order is to create and then prolong a war, so as to enable a take-over, which is what we see happening.

It's worth noting that the Kantian form of evil, wherein people are treated as means to an end, matches up well with Dooku's view of the world.

JB

 

I'd say so, he's more ruthless than Vader from what we've seen of him. Commiting acts of genocide on Wookies etc.

 

The thing about Dooku: He's likable. He's the guy everyone wants to know, and manipulates them into doing what he wants. That's what makes him dangerous. He's not the unstable one like Vader, he's a couple steps ahead of you.

 

Count Dooku hmmm lets see evil evil EVIL I mean he attacks without a second tought exept once and that was short live he cut of anickins arm and disposed of obi-wan but he didn't kill one good act right but he was going to drop a two ton piece of metal on them if not for yoda.

 

Nope, sorry, Dooku was going to kill both ObiWan & Anakin just as Yoda walked in. He'd spun it out, tested the pair and defeated them both.

Interestingly enough this in itself and on its own isn't enough to make him evil, after all if you attack a martials arts grandmaster you'll get your arse handed to you, even if you have some skill in the area. No, it's all the other stuff that makes Dooku evil.

JB

 

Yes, he was evil.

And he was about to kill Obi-Wan right before Anakin woke back up and blocked Dooku's lightsaber blow.

The reason he seems less evil at a glance is because he is cultured, I think. I don't see where he seems to be just trying to please Sidious. He is playing both sides of the war, making nice with the seperatists while he assists Sidious and steals their Death Star plans. He tries to recruit Obi-Wan to his side by saying that the senate is in the thrall of a sith master, which probably really screwed with Obi-Wan, because he wasn't lying and Dooku's motives suddenly became (to Obi-Wan), much harder to discern.

 

Thing is what people don't seem to pick up is that Dooku is doing what his master wishes, being the leader of the separatists, playing havoc with ObiWan's mind, it's all part of Sidious' overall plan.

Now it may be one very convincing performance on Dooku's part but it's still an act.

JB

 

hey all,

thanks for the great responses. I enjoyed the debate emmensely. I do agree he is evil. I just like how he is more than he seems. He always acts like there's a bigger reason for all of it. And despite carrying out the evil deeds, he almost seems saddened by it at times.

Again, thanks all!

 

I think he's evil...but I think there was some purpose to his turn to the Dark Side. Like so many EU characters (Quinlan Vos, Uliq Quel Droma), I think his purposes behind joining Sidious were noble...but he was corrupted.

 

I wouldn't be lulled by Dooku's logical words. Iago was the best friend a man could have... or was he?