Cybernetics and the Force: A balance?

We all hear now that Darth Vader was weaker because of his cybernetics. My question is this, is there a turning point where cybernetics begins to truly affect your force potential or is something as minor as losing a hand going to have a major effect on your power?

I'd say that maybe a single limb won't affect you too badly but beyond that you start seeing effects.

 

It didn't seem to affect Luke's or Anakin's when they lost a hand...

 

well, since the whole midichlorian things that George added, having them in your bloodstream would mean less body parts=less bloodflow=less midis=less Force power.

 

You can improve your body with Force´s skills, but with the machines you are only as good as them.
That shouldn´t matter with low force users, but with someone of Vader´s level...

 

I've never really bought into the less body=less force strength idea, as the midis are measured per cell, and not as a whole (under that reasoning, taller Jedi would be stronger than shorter ones, and we what Yoda has to say about that).

I think the cybernetics start to count when they're the only things keeping a person. Remeber, the Force is an engery field created by life and living things, so if a person has an especially weak "life force," then his ability to touch the Force will be correspondingly diminished.

If Vader was in fact weaker than Anakin, then it's because he was the broken, artificially preserved remains of what had once been Anakin.

 

it could be on a per cell per SIZE basis. For example, if someone was 2ft tall and had 100 midis. Someone 4ft tall might need 200 midis just to be equal. So if the 4ft tall one lost ANY part of the body, then they would technically be weaker, even if they had more midis.

 

Size matters not.

Anyway George Lucas created this mess with the Prequels.
In TPM we see that Midi's are measured per cell. Nowhere in the movies is it suggested that the replacement of bodyparts with cybernetics diminishes a person's connection with the force. It's just a hastily put together retcon to explain the discrepancies in force capabilities that we see between the two trilogies - and it stinks.

I kinda think Lumiya might have been lying about it anyway.

 

I dunno. Makes sense to me. Would a cyborg with a biological finger have the same Force power as a whole person? Doubtful. I just think it's not particularly relevant except for when very specific things are involved. Lumiya was talking about the hughest levels of arcane Sith necromancy. The Jedi don't have much of an equivelant to that. It doesn't seem that something so small as a hand makes that much of a difference.

 

On the bright side, weapon cybernetic parts are a good way to fight a jedi somewhat evenly.


Jedis have cool powers...but cyborgs have..

EYE BEAMS!

 

See, this is one of those examples where I'm fine ignoring George Lucas - and apparently the EU is as well:

According to Dark Lord - Anakin/Vader is potentially just as powerful as he's ever been. His "Force problems" are primarily psychological.

Ok, fair enough, he won't have access to *certain* techniques like Force lightning - techniques that *require* channeling the Force through fleshy parts - so on that level he's "less powerful". But his actual "strength in the Force" hasn't really diminished at all.

Hell, going by C-Canon, Vader even managed to bypass his lightning limitation by learning to conjure his own variant of it. Shame that the book in which he did so is full of so many irritating moments...

Ah well.

 

Hehe. I've always thought it'd be cool to shoot Force Lighting out of your nose


I get the feeling that this is what Lumiya was talking about with the whole "cyborgs can't be true Sith Lords" spiel. I for one, don't think that's true, and she is just being too hard on herself. Yeesh. For someone complaining that the Sith temples she's been to are too gloomy, you would think she would have a more positive self image adn look on the bright side


...then again, I suppose she is a Sith

 

Palpatine doesn't think Vader could ever overthrow him in Dark Lord And it's G-canon that he's slavering after Luke. Which doesn't make sense if Vader's just as good, obviously. *shrug*

 

i don't think the effects of "cyborging" are as bad as some (lumiya) make it out to be... but it does make sense that having fake parts makes you weaker in the Force. machines don't connect to the Force like living flesh does, so you're not as connected if you're half machine. now in Vader's case he's so powerful the effects just take him from "greatest Force user ever" to "really, really powerful Force user". but i could see Lumiya being dropped down too low to become a full blown Sith (or at least a strong enough one to take out a strong Jedi order) if she's only Mara level or less even when whole. plus generally getting that level of cyborgness involves severe trauma (falling into lava/getting your spaceship blown up) which could affect things on a deeper level, both physical (midis themselves getting burnt up by lava/explosion even in the body parts you keep) and psychological.

 

About cybernetics, is there a way to modify it so the Force or another energy can be used through it, like it was an natural limb?

 

If it's not a natural limb, it won't be sensitive to the Force. The reason things like Force lightning can't be used, however, is because it's mechanical and would completely blow up.

As for "other energy," Trioculus modifies Vader's glove to be able to shoot lightning out of it through use of electric thingies inserted into the fingertips.

 

Well, the reason I asked is because Tenel Ka will be getting an cybernetic in my Naruto II/Young Jedi Knight crossover. The other energy I was talking about was her own internal power, Chakra. Would it be possible for a cybernetic limb to be modified for the use of Chakra?

 

Actually, I think you're a bit mixed up. He had lightning inserts in just a regular glove. Then after he got Vader's glove but found he couldn't make it do the choking thing (gosh, I wonder why) he had them put technology in there to simulate it, but stopped using it when he found it resulted in temporary blindness and withering of the hand.

 

Whoops.

As for chakra power...not sure what it is in reference ro Naruto, but otherwise it's an internal power, like the Force, so it shouldn't have much to do with the arm itself. Actually, in the SW universe, all magic connected to the Force, so maybe chakra=Force.

 

For the fic, Chakra and the Force are seperate but similar. Kakashi and Hiashi can't see it being used, while they can see Chakra.

And, Tenel Ka is learning Hinata's taijutsu style called Jyuuken, which requires chakra going through the limbs to disrupt the body's flow of chakra, causing massive internal damage.

 

I don't know what any of that means, but as long as you've got it worked out.

 

Even if their Force powers are equal Luke was younger and physically superior in terms of speed and agility. So it's only natural that Palpatine would choose him over Vader.

 

I never understood why, if Palpatine planned on ruling all existence for all time, he ever planned on taking an apprentice anyway! ESPECIALLY one with the raw power to overthrow him.

 

I don't think Palpatine -did- plan on ruling all existence for all time until -after- Vader got borgified.

Look at the line he says to Yoda in "Revenge of the Sith":

"Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!"

Palpatine has no reason to be lying to Yoda at this point. There's nothing for him to gain, and it's not exactly a statement that's going to cow an ancient Jedi Master in the midst of a battle. Hence, Palpatine was -expecting- Vader to eventually surpass, and therefore likely supplant him, continuing the traditional methods of the Sith. In other words, Vader would have eventually become the Emperor.

However then Vader gets borged up, and psychologically hampers himself to (according to Lucas) 80 percent of Palpatine's level of power. Palpatine realizes that Vader isn't an "ideal" long-term apprentice anymore, because he doesn't have the potential to be greater than his master. So Palpatine starts cultivating the various groups of Force-Users he inspired (Emperor's Hands, Sovereign Protectors, Inquisitors, Dark Adepts), possibly in the hopes he can find someone that will surpass Vader (unlikely, but a guy can hope). Of course, he eventually settles on Luke, but in the meantime, he gets the idea in his head that he can just go on living forever (ala Dark Empire), particularly once the "Clone bodies" and "Life Transference" bits are perfected (which I -don't- believe happened prior to RotJ/DE).

Of course, I also believe Palpatine/Sidious was driven completely nuts by his "Death" and "transference", but that's just me.

As for Lumiya: If her training was initially under Vader, and Vader had decided to rationalize his psychological limiting of his Force Power as "a result of my injuries and the cybernetic reconstruction", it might stand to reason that's just a belief that he passed on to Lumiya along the way. Thus, whether it's true or not, Lumiya might -believe- it's true.

 

Yeah, but by RotJ he certainly had his plan to rule for eternity well underway. Why screw with it?

 

Uh, yeah he does:

Sidious understood that he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out his despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.
Even at Sidious? own peril.

And:

by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his Mastery

He doesn?t even thing it?s a question of ?maybe?, or ?if?. He thinks it?s a question of ?when? and ?by the time?.

Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader?s legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not it the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn?t know the power of the dark side. Vader?s real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical*, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.

*my emphasis

Yes, it?s C-Canon, but is it overridden by anything we?re told in the movies? No. So it stands. By RotJ, think Palpatine?s realised that whilst the potential is still there, buried beneath layers of doubt and the "little bits of Anakin Skywalker that remain", Vader is *never* going to reach it, so he decides to start afresh with another Skywalker. Makes perfect sense to me.

Besides, we?re all in agreement that Vader is never going to be able to master all the Sith techniques, purely because of his cyborging, so even if his strength in the Force is greater than Luke?s, a Sith Master is likely going to prefer someone who can fully realise ?Sith Power?. Luke is, in this respect, much better than Vader.

I think that?s probably how the line was intended if you take G-Canon on its own, but? when you factor the other levels of canon in, I think it?s more likely Palpatine was saying that:

?Hey, you can?t stop the Sith ? even if I die now, Darth Vader will end up pillaging all of you?, or bragging about the fact he?s going to be in control of someone so much more powerful than he is.

I don?t think Palpatine ever *wants* to give up mastery. I don?t think any Sith ever wants to. The apprentice has a dual purpose:

1) To perpetuate the Sith legacy should the master die
2) Stop the Master from growing complacent and taking things easy

I think the second is probably more important for the Master - they always need something threatening their power, or they?re likely to get soft. They don?t want to train their murderer ? but at the same time, they want the Sith line to continue, and the chance that they?ll die ? however small ? means that they?re going to have to train an apprentice.

So, while I don?t think Palaptine ever had any plans of giving up power to Vader, and that he fully intended to rule for ?a thousand years?? I think it?s fair to say that he *also* wants to ensure that if he *does* get apprentikilled, the Sith are still strong. And by turning pre-cyborg Anakin to the darkside, he?d apparently guaranteed that.