Dark Empire: One of the worst things to happen to Star Wars ever. A discussion on Star Wars canon.

Does anybody here share my opinion that Dark Empire is terrible? Especially in light if the prequils. In fact, the prequils and Dark Empire abosolutley conflict in many important points and I'm not talking about technilogical discontinuities like the length of a Super Star Destroyer.

First of all; Luke Skywalker knows better than to turn to the dark side. (For those not familliar with the story in Dark Empire, it goes like this. Luke begins to feel unsure about his connections with the force and realizes that the missing link must be his lack of experience in the dark side of the force. So he turns to the dark side to learn a few things just like a wreckless teenager who assumes once in control, always in control. "I will turn back to the light side soon enough. I just want to see what the dark side is like for a little while.") Didn't he learn anything from his dad? Didn't he learn anything from Yoda? Yoda said, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Not, "You need to try out the dark side for a change. Every Jedi Master needs to do it to get a full grasp on the force."

On a similar note, though Anakin was eventually redeemed, I'm sure if given the choice he would have been a little more careful about the dicissions that led him to the dark side. No honest Sith after all is said and done can say they were happy. Smart men learn from their own mistakes but wise men learn from others'.

So this is why I hate Dark Empire because in my opinion it puts Luke Skywalker completley out of character.

Now about canon. I believe Dark Empire is the farthest thing from canon. N-canon, even though technically it falls C-canon which is second only to absolutle canon or G-canon. I feel like canon should be based on character and story rather than technical details. The spirit of Star Wars, not the facts of Star Wars. Here is an example:

The spirit of Star Wars is concerned with the story it tells. The battle of good and evil, the absolute difference between right and wrong and the choices that everyone has to make.

The facts of Star Wars are concerned with how long a super star destroyer is and what all Artoo actually has inside of him.

I guess I'm just a purist. I do like to get the furthered stories of the characters but they have to be believable to me and that includes a consistancy in character. I'd like to hear any thoughts or opinions on the matter.

 

Lucas has stated that Dark Empire comes the closest of all the EU to what he would do for a sequel trilogy. That's all I'll say on the subject.

 

I never really had a problem with Dark Empire, other than the fact that that artist used a strange style for the illustrations

 

dustinbagley:
First of all; Luke Skywalker knows better than to turn to the dark side.

Obviously not . . .

Didn't he learn anything from his dad? Didn't he learn anything from Yoda? Yoda said, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Not, "You need to try out the dark side for a change. Every Jedi Master needs to do it to get a full grasp on the force."

So, judging by your stance on this matter, no student should ever go beyond the word of his teacher? No student should ever branch out and try to learn on his own, to find his own solutions to problems that are now his responsibility, that, moreover, are problems his teacher never even had to consider, let alone deal with?

Beyond that point, speaking to the specifics of the storyline of DE, we don't know what Luke was thinking, only what he did. For all we know Luke knew for certain, in a vision from the Force, that beating Palpatine's Clone by conventional measures was impossible, and hence he embarked on his questionable, yet ultimately effective, plan.

So this is why I hate Dark Empire because in my opinion it puts Luke Skywalker completley out of character.

So you disregard the entire series because you have a quibble with Luke's plan of action? Besides which, whether or not Luke is out of character is very much a debatable question. He's the only living Jedi that he knows of, and certainly the only Jedi Master, and he's just learned that the man who plunged the galaxy into darkness, who almost turned Luke himself, who was responsible for ruining and later murdering his father, who he thought had been long since dead and exploded, was now back and more powerful (and insane) than ever. Maybe this is just me, but I think Luke had every right to be just a teeny bit moody.

The spirit of Star Wars is concerned with the story it tells. The battle of good and evil, the absolute difference between right and wrong and the choices that everyone has to make.

Yes, exactly, and if you read the series closely, the core of concerns Luke's choices.

CooperTFN:
Lucas has stated that Dark Empire comes the closest of all the EU to what he would do for a sequel trilogy. That's all I'll say on the subject.

What he said.

KW

 

Yeah, but look what he did for a prequel trilogy.

 

If I have a problem with DE, it's not to do with what Palpatine did to Joruus C'baoth's gimp (Farmboy has never been right since his brain got rewired on Jomark; kudos to Zahn for setting that up)... nor is it the art; it's purely the clone-Palpatine schtick that I object to...

But that can be easily explained because we have no absolute canonical evidence they weren't just insane clones...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Yeah! Good stuff, ain't it?

As for the topic at hand:

Dark Empire: One of the worst things to happen to Star Wars ever.

Well, I do give you points for saying "one" of the worst, I can't help but mention that I have a list about a mile long of things in the SW universe worse than Dark Empire. And if I hear one more person say Luke went to the dark side in that comic, I will... Well you can bet I'll do something!

Overall, I thought Dark Empire II and Empires End were pretty meh. I like most of the ideas shown in DE. I even like the clone Palpy (And I agree with McEwok, but everytime I mention that it should be a crazy clone, someone brings up that the Databank says that it was definately Palpys spirit embued clone)

As for a canon debate, there really isn't one. We know what's canon, and sure we can have our "personal canons" but it doesn't change what's set in stone. Just because I want to believe Glove of Vader or Courtship of Princess Leia never happened, I know they did happen. It's just trying to figure out how it fits, and just accepting it in general.

 

The three-colour inking worse than Tarkin's suave breath, it's inconceivable a man that outsmarted legions of Jedi and politicians wouldn't have a back door. It's legitimate, so stop burping helium, it sounds . . . squeaky, to say the least; ridiculous at best. My only issue is with its wacky use of feats, and the end of issue 3 with the zzzing droid announcing Fett must have shocked you at that time.

I won't bother opining Dark Emp 2, or a single shove that ended bluff-bloating Sedriss. But his NEGTC page did him credit and wrought persona into this zombie manga head.

 

I enjoyed DE2, the only one i have, and really want Empire's End.
Like rumsmuggler and Ex, my only problem is thta they used the starngest way of coloring it.

 

Luke turning to the Dark Side? That was neat. World Devastators? I've seen cooler. Cloned Emporer? It was going to happen sooner or later.

Dark Empire is what it is and it's a fun read. It may get people's panties in a bunch, but so do the prequels and yet we live on.

As pointed out in a review of the series I read somewhere, the only disappointing thing about Dark Empire was that it made Anakin's death pointless. Though one can argue Palpatine always had a back up plan for situations such as the one he faced above Endor.

And I know people could care less what Lucas says, but I, too, have read the Dark Empire series was an ideal turn in his mind. Why not send the hero to the Dark Side? Why not show the Emporer come back? Why not pit brother against sister? Lucas is a nutjob, we all know this, yet we have to take it a grain of salt.

 

There are things in DE that i like and things i don't like.

At least they got the scale somewhat right. Certainly better than WEG.

 

I agree that Dark Empire was one of the worst things to happen to Star Wars ever. Even though I don't feel that Luke truly became dark in DE, he was portrayed as foolish, playing with fire. And dead characters should remain dead. Resurrecting the Emperor was a really bad idea, in my opinion. Dark Empire diminished Anakin's sacrifice in RotJ and it diminished the character of Luke Skywalker too. He had already decided he would rather die than mess with the Dark side twice in his life. Why would he change his mind after he was a Jedi Master?

skatalite :
Why not send the hero to the Dark Side?

You know, I'm really very tired of heroes doing questionable things or becoming evil. I want heroes to ACT like heroes and to do heroic things. I want them to remain heroes despite horrible odds, terrible temptations, and almost impossible situations. That's what makes a hero heroic. Doing what the villains do is bringing the hero down to the villain's level.

And I don't care what George Lucas thinks about DE. I totally disagree with him. My definition of hero seems to be vastly different from his.

 

The only thing that saved Luke from the darkside in RotJ was the fact he was fighting his father. If he had been fighting any random sith, he probably would have turned. So, I believe it makes sense that Luke would turn at one point post-RotJ.

 

Feel free to go read & watch Superman if you like your heroes one-dimensional with no reason to do anything.

I personally loved DE. THe clone Emperor actually fits prety well with ROTS and Palpatine's lies (?) of Sith immortality. Hell, it even gets carried through in the new HYperspace webstrip.

 

Personally I thought the art was great. I just wish it would've ended at DE1, and not gone on to the alright DE2 or horrible Empire's End.

 

I really enjoyed DE, mainly because it shows Luke at his most powerful self, really proving the potential of the son of the Chosen One.

 

In Ep3 we learned that Palpatine was seeking a way of cheating death. In Ep VI he dies. In DE he returns having cheated death. Makes perfect sense to me. The argument that by bringing Palpatine back ruins Anakin's sacrifice has been seen on these boards a million times. My view is that Anakin DID bring about balance of the Force when he hurled Palps down the shaft. In DE it is up to Luke and Leia, as offspring of Anakin, to maintain the equilibrium when Palps returns.

The only thing I don't like about DE is that EE wasn't finished properly.

 

Bite me, Dark Empire rules.

I think that will be my standard response to these Dark Empire threads from now on, since all they do is conviently ignore the points brought up by others.

Oh fine, here's one canned response from Charles.


"2. Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo destroy the Emperor (Dark Empire)

Dark Empire II I've always felt was unnecessary to the perfection of Dark Empire 1. The moment when Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo team up to essentially use LOVE to destroy the Emperor is a favorite moment because you realize the Emperor is broken at this point. He can attack or return from the dead all he wants but the Skywalker family will be there to stop him for the rest of time. The Emperor only has his own evil to (literally) consume him while they have family to catch them when they fall."

"I want heroes to ACT like heroes and to do heroic things."

You're going to have a problem with that then, considering how an awful, awful lot of REAL mythological heroes are absolute jerks: Jason, Theseus, Gilgamesh, Hercules, Zeus, the list goes on and on. A lot of their shenannigans involve either raping women, dumping them or kidnapping them. Very heroic huh?

 

I actually enjoyed DE. Luke levitates a SD down to land, which is very impressive.

 

The Emperor came back to life? Sounds pretty lame. I guess they couldn't think of a better enemy.

 

I find it amusing when people who haven't even read the comic criticize it. It's like saying, "LA sucks, and I've never been there!"

 

Oh, but that's true.

 

I find it amusing when comic writers can't think of a new villain.

 

Aww. The thing it's great you disagree with Lucas, but the fact still remainds: he created the SW universe. If he wants to turn ever hero to the dark side or kill everyone, he can. Yes, it would suck and make for bad story telling, but the fact still remains: the man does what he wants.

And I understand you're tired of heroes doing questionable things, but up until DE no hero really did anything to that extent save for Anakin.

 

Why think of a new villain? Star Wars had its perfect villain in Palpatine. An evil sith lord intent on ruling the galaxy forever. At the time it was ALL there was, the comic writers found a way to bring back the entire SW group(except Vader anyway) in what was at the time their biggest adventure.

The prequals even show Palpatine searching for that road to immortality. Low and behold, if you watch the movies, then read ahead to DE, you find that he found it. What is the worst thing you could think of if you were Luke, Leia or Han? A new alien waiting to kill them all? Or someone who you KNEW was dead, and comes back with more power than ever, and an intent desire to crush everything you have built up since he died. Thats what DE showed, in the OT time, the Empire had so much to deal with running the galaxy that it couldnt put all its efforts to squashing a little rebellion. DE comes, and teh Empire has an entrenched enemy now, the New Republic can't just go running in holes. It had responsibilities, boarders, and interests to hold.

I fully support what DE was, as well as DE2 and EE. Though I wish EE had been able to get its full arc in. DE showed Palpatine had returned with a supply of clones. Two clones died in the duration of DE. DE2 continues and shows what happens to the rest of them, the Emperor isn't dead yet. And finally EE completes the story, showing the end of the Emperors clones, and finally with his last chance at life, his failure, and his final death. (By Han freakin Solo no less...not as clumsy as a blaster my ass )

I feel it invalidates Anakins death in no way. He killed Palpatine when no one else could, Luke was not ready at the time to deal with him. Once dead, the Jedi have a chance to return and thrive. Luke becomes a jedi master, and with the power and potential he got from his father, was finally able to deal with the Emperor when he finally returns. I wont say that Luke fully fell to the dark side, but he dealt with the corrupting powers of it...felt its stain and call when he stood with the Emperor and was on Byss. He learned things about the dark power that made him see the force differently. It did hurt him, but i dont believe he fell to the dark side. He even helped the war effort from the inside, and eventually destroyed the World Devastators.

I'll admit that Palpatine didn't seem his calm self throughout parts of the story, but I do believe it was Palpatine himself, not some nutty clone. Saying that he didnt transfer his thuoghts and soul in there also invalidates DarkSaber and Bevel Lemelisks story and demise. At his execution, his last words were "At least make sure you do it right this time." Very good last words considering what Palpatine put him through over the years.

But in the defense of Palpatine, he spent several years in the hell of the dark side netherworld. You're going to lose a few marbles at that point I'm sure. So his attitude is no real indication that its merely an insane clone. Joruus C'Boath was an insane clone, and he simply couldnt keep it together, he had great difficulty concentrating on things, and eventually lost it. Palpatine seemed to have no problem concentrating on several occassions to create powerful force storms. The only time he seemed to "lose it" was when he was on his last clone and it was dying. You would freak out some too if you were at that point. But he still kept it together. The Emperor truly did find a way to corrupt the force to gain immortality, at a cost.

Even after all that, the heroes prevailed, and the galaxy went back to...ok nevermind that last part, DE was normal for the galaxy.

Crimson Empire came along afterwards and provided a nice little epilogue to the DE storyline, and how and why the Emperor finally died. Once again, due to corruption amongst his followers who craved more power. In a way they carried on the legacy of the Sith even if Palpatine himself didn't plan too. They killed the master to gain more for themselves.

Plus, and a last piece of what this great storyl