Darth Bane: the enigma

In the Emperor Reborn and post RotJ Sith topic, Valiento and I started an interesting discussion regarding Darth Bane and just how much of a revolutionary Sith he was. Trying to make certain the issue at hand stays... well, at hand in the other topic, I'm starting this topic to specifically discuss the deductions we can make about Darth Bane and his impact on the Sith.

1st issue: Was "darth" Bane's first name or simply the title we know it as? What is your reasoning?

2nd issue: Was Lord Kaan that much of an authority figure among the Sith? Why?

 

No one before bane had the name darth.

secrets of the sith, says, "one sith lord escaped. His name was darth bane"

not "his name was bane, or his position was darth"

Lord Kaan was the one in charge, according to the dark forces novels and the secrets of the sith. we learn more from j vs. s, that theres a bit more infighting than that. The ec says Sith lord Kaan brought together 20,000 devoted followers" they were his sith, he was the master. according to secrets of the sith bane's master died at ruusan. In bane of the sith Kaan was his master, and the only one to praise bane for what he was doing. Bane just wanted to get out from under his masters wing, that's why he was beggining to have rivalry with his master.

In secrets of the sith it says bane's training was left unfinished. That's why he went to the dxun to learn more. Because his training wasn't complete or well developed, that's why the other sith who surpassed him looked down on him in "bane of the sith", they considered him a failure and a reject".

It's also implied in the comic series that he wasn't complete in his training, he says that poison would not have affected a true Dark Lord of the Sith, he kind of scolds himself.

It's funny how you need all these sources to fit what happens together. Oh that's the whole fun part that era of history is because it's shrouded in darkness. With the pieces of the puzzle unfurled at last the veil has been lifted ...to reveal the Legacy of Darkness.

Kaan was the authority figure among the sith, at least until the final several battles, then people began to be discouraged because they weren't winning, and disrepect arose from them.

 

I dug my books out of my moving boxes for this, and here's some interesting info.:

1) Bane's master (or at least one of his instructors) appears in Bane of the Sith in Gamer #3. His name is Qordis. He does not think much of Bane's flight from certain destruction on Ruusan and cripples Bane's ship causing to crash and explode on Dxun. Oddly enough, Qordis is said to have been "annihilated on Ruusan, like all the others". I thought the thought bomb sucked all the spirits in, never to escape 'till the prophecy was fulfilled... hmmm... ?

2) Kaan's spirit also shows up and, get this, is supportive of Bane and his mission to carry on the ways of the Sith.

3) Bane says the reason for the poison's effect on him was that darkside was "spread too thin". An excuse? Maybe, but I don't think Bane is some light-weight when it comes to the darkside. He "links" the other Sith and "channels" their powers to create that firestorm in Jedi vs. Sith #4.

 

Thanks for the update, been awhile since I read the story.

So this means Kaan was the main master, while he had apprentices(including qordis), who had there own apprentices(bane), etc.

The thing about qordis, and kaan, was they too were trapped. But like kyle katarn did to his alter-ego Tal, they can project themselves to communicate out side the thoughtbombs effects. But they can't leave ruusan, not until the prophecy is fullfilled.

 

Simply because Bane is the first Darth (chronologically) we've met, doesn't necessarily mean Darth is his first name. And while I do acknowledge that Bane was not the one in charge at Ruusan, that Bane is touted as not being fully trained, and that there has not been any mention of a Darth before this whole Ruusan conflict, I'm not willing to rule out the possibility that, in this time of grasping for power among the Sith, Darth Bane "assumed" the title of Darth (which, until Uncle George is done telling his stories, we can't be certain doesn't carry some significance), fought those who sought to kill him for his brashness and non-traditional views, and held his own. Training incomplete or not, I don't think Bane was the "architect of the Sith" out of sheer cowardice and luck.

 

Qordis says to bane about his level of training, "you never did as you were told, you never bothered to finish your training"

 

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"The thing about qordis, and kaan, was they too were trapped. But like kyle katarn did to his alter-ego Tal, they can project themselves to communicate out side the thoughtbombs effects. But they can't leave ruusan, not until the prophecy is fullfilled."

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Katarn wasn't trapped in the Valley of the Jedi, Tal was. It's my take that Kyle "experienced" the events through Tal's consciousness, which was still trapped... like all the others.

Now, this spirit discrepancy can be chalked up to Anderson not fully knowing the implications of the Dark Forces depictions and left alone or we can make some assumptions/speculations.

My speculative assumption is that Qordis died before the thought bomb went off. I also think Kaan might of realized the error of his ways and tried to escape (either physically or spiritually) the effects of the bomb... with some success. This, of course, is only my opinion.

 

I know Qordis says Bane didn't finish his training, but what does that mean? Did Bane leave early on? Did he just not complete some sort of Sith final exam? Did Bane think Kaan, Qordis, and the other Sith were straying a bit too much from what he thought should be the purpose of the Sith and go off to search out the darkside? Just because Bane didn't go to graduation doesn't mean he's not very capable.

 

"Katarn wasn't trapped in the Valley of the Jedi, Tal was. It's my take that Kyle "experienced" the events through Tal's consciousness, which was still trapped... like all the others."

Umm your reading my sentence wrong, I meant kyle katarn was speaking to his alter ego tal. Tal who is trapped in the valley, but could project himself to some degree.

Same with kaan and qordis.

while your speculation is good, don't say that "Darth is a title, just because it hasn't been said not to be"

Because if we go by text only it's only a name. but to say i'm wrong is methodically wrong unless you got some hard evidence to back up your stance, which we don't have. maybe in the darksider sourcebook, will shed some more light.

So so far it's only a name. But if something later says it's a title, it will be a title but not until then.

Though GL has said to sansweet and others somethings will be left vague, to premote healthy immiginations and oppinions, that way nothing is wrong, and everyones views can be right. So go ahead, say what you believe just don't knock what I say. If something is written in stone then that is the only correct thing to believe. But nothing has been cut in stone yet since the movies haven't be released yet. somethings will never be written in stone.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree about the Darth name/title thing. We know of more Darths as a title than as a name (Vader, Maul, and Sidious can't all have the first name of Darth, can they? I guess they could...). Maybe we'll never know. At this point, either of us could be right.

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"Katarn wasn't trapped in the Valley of the Jedi, Tal was. It's my take that Kyle "experienced" the events through Tal's consciousness, which was still trapped... like all the others."

Umm your reading my sentence wrong, I meant kyle katarn was speaking to his alter ego tal. Tal who is trapped in the valley, but could project himself to some degree.

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I think you're getting my point wrong, actually. Tal was in the Vally of the Jedi. So was Kyle Katarn. That's why they could "communicate" as they did. Rememeber Yun's ability to "communicate" with the other trapped spirits? If the spirits could get out of the Valley, they might have sought out some of the Jedi in the area. How far apart are Ruusan and Dxun, anyway?

 

"We'll have to agree to disagree about the Darth name/title thing. We know of more Darths as a title than as a name (Vader, Maul, and Sidious can't all have the first name of Darth, can they? I guess they could...). Maybe we'll never know. At this point, either of us could be right."

No, all I said was that bane is said to just be a name(in official sources so far.). Though in his egotism to make sure he would always be remembered he started to hand it out to his apprentice, with the intention to hand it out to his, so on and so forth. It stopped with vader, from what official works we got so far(unless something official says lumiya is darth lumiya, comes out in the future).

There is no proof to proof it was more than a name in banes case, all sorces pretty much call him Dark Lord Darth Bane(if your right, it's redundant don't you think?). But I'm saying if something pops up later to prove you right, i'm will to accept it. Not until then.

as for qordis, let's say you may be right, he might have died before the thought bomb blast. But with Kaan most sources says he got trapped in the valley. So that's what happened, he's just powerful enough to be able to project his voice into bane's head. But maybe only for short periods, and over time lose that ability completly as his spirit got tied more and more to the valley.

All I can say is that most sources say Nobody escaped, later sources added "only one escaped, darth bane".

 

Waffles?

 

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No, all I said was that bane is said to just be a name. Though in his egotism to make sure he would always be remembered he started to hand it out to his apprentice, with the intention to hand it out to his, so on and so forth. It stopped with vader, from what official works we got so far.

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Where is this established? Where is it said that "darth" in Bane's case is only a name? Where does it say that Bane wanted his name as the title for all the Sith from him on?

I know neither Flint nor Lumiya took "darth" as a title, so I'll go with you on the last point... that this "darth" stuff ended with him.

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There is no proof to proof it was more than a name in banes case, all sorces pretty much call him Dark Lord Darth Bane(if your right redundant don't you think?). But I'm saying if something pops up later to prove you right, i'm will to accept it. Not until then.

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Unless I missed something, there's no proof to prove "darth" is only a name in Bane's case.

Heck, as I've said above, I'm more than willing to accept that this is the case even without proof, but saying that my scenario cannot be possible when there is exactly as much support for mine as there is for yours doesn't make much sense. What I'm saying, what I've been saying, is that we don't know any more now than before. That's why I asked for opinions.

And where does it say "Dark Lord Darth Bane"? I know the A New Hope novelization says "Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith". Does that mean Vader's first name is "darth", too?

 

Seems like a private party. I'll just go read over in that nice easy chair over there in the corner. Maybe put on the RoTJ radio drama.

 

.

 

Nah! Join in the late-night debate! I need all the help I can get!

 

I'm on Valiento's side....

So should I just go?

*goes over to knight and puishes him out of his chair*

 

"And where does it say "Dark Lord Darth Bane"? I know the A New Hope novelization says "Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith". Does that mean Vader's first name is "darth", too?"

Yes, it's only a name one of respect to those they are following the history of.

Even Darth Maul was Darth Maul, before he was given the title of dark lord of the sith(see darth maul journal).

It's only memory of the father of the rule of two, Darth Bane. It has no special meaning. It's like you taking on the last name of your family, and giving it to your son, and his son's son. Or like me taking on my father's first name, and I'll probably give my son as his first name, and hopefully so on and so forth.

 

Where does it say this? This is conjecture, speculation just like mine!

 

Well in the Darth Maul journal,he was Darth Maul even before he became a Sith lord.

as for the rest...

Yep..and you guys will have to wait another 3 years to find out the truth.

In the mean time let's all have some waffles.

 

Why carry two titles? Why have redundancy? "Hey look I'm DARth Lord of the siTh, DARk Lord, DARTH Valiento, bow before me all you cretins" very redundant if we followed your theory.

Secondly if darth maul was darth maul before he was Dark Lord of the sith, (Darth Maul as darth maul was in the darth maul journal), it too would defeat the purpose of giving him his darkhoodship. It would be redundant, giving him darkhoodship twice, why do it? It would be like me calling you "Jedi JedimasterED, ."

From what we can see it's only a name, that way it isn't redudant.

 

This is getting ridiculous. Just because he's called "Darth Maul" before he technically becoms a Dark Lord of the Sith (which, BTW, I'll have to reread my Journal and see how this "event" is written) doesn't mean the "darth" part of his name isn't a title and is his first name. Now, I know about Chinese (or is it Japanese... or both?) family names being first in the way they write/say their names, so "darth" could be the generationally passed-down part of the Sith Lords' names, but we don't know for sure, so we can't say for sure.

I'm not saying anything for sure.

It seems to me that Valiento is.

Ugh! I'm getting some waffles and going to bed!

 

I can just feel the fuzzies.

Belgian waffles........smotherd in butter and real maple syurp..... ohh gosh *drools*

orgasmic

 

I could go for some Belgium waffles.

I'm staying out of this debate until i've finished my waffle. Matt, is there room for a bean bag over by yours and knight's chair?

 

I'm just saying all sources say It's his name, "he's named darth bane". So from official sources it's a name. So we can all agree they are named Darth. does it have a meaning any more than that? That can't be surmised from any official sources.

No official sources say it's a title. So we can't surmise that it's a title, unless we get more proof. Though we can surmise that's people are named Darth, from what little official phrases have been said.

If lfl decides to let us in on more facts, then we can add more to it. Maybe something will be said in the upcoming darkside sourcebook. Then again mayby it will be left as ambigous as it is.

I'll pass on the waffles, give me a nice big Juicy steak, eggs, hash browns and some biscuits and gravy, and I'll be happy. .