Darth Maul VS Darth Vader. The FINAL Argument.

I wrote this up for a competition a few years ago and now its sitting idly on my computer- may as well give it a test run.

Introduction:

Welcome. I presented this argument for a games forum awhile ago now to go into the draw for a Millenium Falcon poster. Its been sitting lifeless on my computer for awhile now and I thought what better way to test my FAQing abilities (My _'Metal Gear Solid'_ plot summary & analysis, is now available at gamefaqs.com). This document is Copyright 2001 by yours truly Grant Morrissey.
All recognizable concepts from the Star Wars series are copyright Lucasfilm, and their usage in this document does not constitute a challenge to that copyright (heh yeah- like I would)
One can view the fight between Maul and Vader as essentially a battle between the Dark side and the...whoops- I mean Prequel and Original trilogies. It seems that underneath the original is still the best- but then the analyise the symbolism of Maul's abilities in comparison to Vader's...

The Contest:

Although there seems to be quite an even balance between who would win, I can quite safely say that Darth Maul would win.

Physical

If Darth Maul fought at the age he was in 'The Phantom Menace' and Darth Vader fought at the age he was in 'The Empire Strikes Back' (Because that was the movie where he seemed to be in his best physical condition) they were 25 (The same age as Obi-Wan Kenobi) and 44 respectively. HMMM, that gives Maul a pretty big age advantage- Although age doesn't make a difference when comes to the Physical side of the Jedi (Light or Dark side) what IS important is the fact that Vader's body is severely hampered and unable to fight for extended periods eg. The 'Return of the Jedi' climax- Where Vader is over-whelmed by Luke after Luke has given into his anger. And lets not forget how long Maul fought with the 2 Jedi. Take 'The Phantom Menace' climax- now lets see Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi replaced by Darth Vader- It would not be a very long fight with Maul getting straight into him.
Vader is missing his lower right arm & would a quadriplegic if not for his cyborg components and has got one lightsaber. Maul has got ALL his arms and legs in biological form and a DOUBLE-BLADED lightsaber, he also has experience in Hand-to-hand combat- Vader wouldn't have a chance. Also, Mauls lightsaber has a second set of components- 'one set can act as a backup for another'- so if Vader decided to knock Mauls lightsaber out- it would still work, don't forget also that Maul might be able to separate the Double Lightsaber and fight with a single lightsaber in each hand- which could surprise ANYONE and turn the tides of the [already victorious for Maul]battle.
You probably don?t know this- but Darth Maul can withstand great physical pain because of the harsh world he comes from- This gives him a great advantage when it comes to fighting (obviously). Darth Vader though- his physical condition with all his cyborg components means he can still feel pain (cybernetic limbs and body parts contain artificial nerve endings).

Look at the speed of the Obi-Wan-Maul duel at the End of 'The Phantom Menace'-Did Vader fight with that speed in ROTJ or ESB? No, he didn't. He'd, quite simply, get his ass kicked.
People have been citing the relatively small budget of the original trilogy was an excuse for the Darth Vaders poor lightsaber movements. Please remember that this is the WORLD of ?Star Wars? we are talking about here. The WORLD of ?Star Wars? includes such wonderous things as the movies (naturally), the ?Bantam? & ?Del Rey? novels, the ?Dark Horse? Comics and the ?Lucasarts? Games- it does NOT include the production, the paychecks, the executives and legal deals or anything else behind the scenes, most important, it does not include the FIGHT CHOREOGRAPHY. These things mean NOTHING to the? Star Wars? chronology and therefore bear nothing important to the world of ?Star Wars? What happened in the movies happened- there was and is no way around it. In ?Dark Empire? did Luke and the reborn Emperor stop

 

Fact: Ray Park is not signed for all three Prequels.

Fact: George Lucas rarely uses concept from the EU, and even more rarely from the games.

Fact: Darth Maul was beaten by a Jedi Apprentice. Darth Vader wiped out most of the Jedi.

Fact: George Lucas put Maul's split in the film to make the point 'He's dead.' Maul is not coming back. There is a new Sith apprentice. Check out the spoiler forum for more information.

 

Where do you live ?

In another Galaxy, perhaps ?

Episode II is named ATTACK OF THE CLONES, and that is official. There's been quite a buzz around that those days...

Now, for your theory, I'll just say one thing, and let others do the 'deconstruction' work : Vader is more than a Master in the Force (he's supposed to be stronger than Yoda). Maul's control of the Force, although being strong, is far weaker than Vader's. IMO, Vader would play with Maul until he got bored, and then, Force bone breaking on Maul's neck, and there goes the peedunkey...

Now, why didn't Vader do that with Obi-Wan ?
1) He wanted to fight him in a lightsaber duel to take his revenge (you know, the molten pit thing).
2) Obi-Wan did not let him time to do it. When he let himself killed, Vader did it cause he wouldn't have just stand here and said : "Come on ! What are you waiting for, old man ? Fight !" (This would be out of character.)

And why didn't Vader do that to Luke ?
1) He was ordered by the Emperor not to do so.
2) He had certain feelings for his son. (He'd have strickly no feelings for Maul)

Ah, and before affirming anything about the Jedi purge, maybe you should wait until EPIII... Even that molten pit thing... I'm not sure it will happen...

 

Darth Maul was a hyped up nothing. Just about all of us fell for the hype, myself included. But after DM:SH, we can see that Maul does not truely live up to the hype. He's supposed to be this great Jedi killing machine, yet we can only grant him one Jedi. That being Qui-Gon Jinn. It becomes clear from Shadow Hunter that Maul faced a total of four Jedi, two of them Masters and the other two Padawans.

In his first encounter with a Jedi, Maul fought a Jedi Master in a lightsaber duel. Maul expected some degree of dificulty, but figured it would be moderate. Yet he found his hands full with the Jedi Master. This was more of a challenge than he expected. And the Jedi Master killed himself in an attempt to take out Maul.

In his second encounter with a Jedi, Maul faced off against a Padawan. One who admitted that she wasn't that good a fighter. And once more Maul found his hands full. He conceeded the fact that the Padawan was better than he had expeceted. And though he dealt a blow that might have killed her, it's also possible that she might have lived. However, he had failed until the very last second to realize that she had indeed set up a trap that would kill him. Like her master, she killed herself in an attempt to take Maul out. By doing this, we are denied the knowledge of whether Maul's blow would have killed her or not.

Mauls third encounter was with Qui-Gon, outside Mos Espa. Though Qui-Gon was winded after the battle, he had demonstrated that he was much tougher than Maul had expected any Jedi could be. Even after his first two Encounters, Maul kept on thinking he could easily take on a Jedi.

The fourth and final encounter pitted Maul agaisnt Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Again I must bring up the hype. Maul is supposed to be such a great fighter that he can easily take on two Jedi at once without haveing to worry. Not so, as we see he has to get rid of Obi-Wan so that he can stand a better chance of fighting Qui-Gon. And killing Qui-Gon was more luck than skill. He got lucky that his hilt was in the right position to stun Qui-Gon. And stunning him was the only way he could get in the killing blow.

It is only after Obi-Wan splits his lightsaber in two that the hype around Maul starts coming close to being more than just that. Maul suddenly becomes a deadlier fighter with a single-blade, nonbulky lightsaber. Yet even so, Obi-Wan proves to be nearly to much for him to handle. Maul had to Force push him into the pit, in the hope that he'd fall to his death. When there's a possibilty his opponent might leap out of the pit, Maul get's rid of his weapon and then uses his own lightsaber to try and cause Obi-WAn to fall to his death.

In all this, Maul overlooked two critical elements. One, though unlikely, is that the mortally wounded Qui-Gon was still alive and could have killed him. He could have taken up his own weapon and run Maul through with it. He could have used the Force to activate it and hurl it like a spear at the unsupecting Maul. He could have Force Pushed Maul into the pit. Or he could have rushed Maul, taking both Maul and himself into the pit, which would have probably denied Maul any Jedi kills. However, as I said, this element is unlikely as Qui-Gon seemed to barely have the strength to speak to Obi-Wan after Maul's death, much less move his arm.

The second element, and the one that proved to be Maul's undoing was Qui-Gon's lightsaber. Obi-Wan knew it was there. Useing the Force, he leapt clear of the pit while calling the lightsaber to him. All of this shocked Maul, who obviously believed he was so superior to the Jedi that they could not surprise him. And before he could make a move to defend himself, it was a Padawan who finished him off.

Maul was so focused on how great he was that he lost focus on the fact that he could be defeated. He viewed himself to be superior to the Jedi, and that lead to him making mistake after mistake.

Was Vader able to keep clear of making mistakes? No, obviously not. But he knew his prey, and he at least showed them some respect. By showing

 

I'd go for Maul. He is clearly the best sabre fighter in the movies so far. Those who say Obi-Wan is better are kidding themselves. Maul beat Qui-Gon, Maul should have beaten Obi-Wan. His own arrogance was his undoing (just like his master) - skill and attunement to the force had nothing to do with it.

Vader on the other hand is a broken-down old Cyborg. Lucas even said that the prequel trilogy duels would be much better because we'd be seeing Sith and Jedi in their prime as opposed to an old man, a half-man, half machine, and a boy who learnt from them. Maul looked better than Vader because he was meant to be better than him. Comparing Anakin Skywalker, at the height of his powers, may be an altogether different story, but I've got the feeling that the chosen one never came close to reaching his full potential. I very much doubt that he'll ever come close, in power, to Yoda or Palpatine.

 

Anakin was conceived by midi-chlorians. He would beat the tar out of Maul.

 

you assume too much......i failed to read most of your argument, having done so on numerous other long posts and having constructed a few of my own......but early on you make a fatal error...you assume that Vader was at his prime in his fortys in ESB...considering that so far in the moviews you've seen him as an old man in the OT and as a little kid in TPM...who the heck are you to judge his saber ability in his prime?!?......lets say we read the Phantom Menace Book before the movie came out and it was missing the chapter where Maul dies......and lets say all the other Maul stories (Shadow Hunter, Saboteur and the 4-Part Comic) were released ahead of the movie......from there, by your logic Maul would win at the end because Obi-Wan...just before he was struck down in his prime in ANH was almost lethargic and clearly suicidal and maul would have no problem taking him out early on in the battle considering the ability Maul has shown so far............um...well the point is Obi-Wan wasn't at his prime in ANH and likewise...Vader/Anakin will be seen in top form in AotC and even more so in Episode 3.........

i don't know about the rest of your argument but i don't buy that part...

 

Alienboy...
"Although there seems to be quite an even balance between who would win, I can quite safely say that Darth Maul would win."

Wrong. I can safely say that Darth Vader would win.

"If Darth Maul fought at the age he was in 'The Phantom Menace' and Darth Vader fought at the age he was in 'The Empire Strikes Back' (Because that was the movie where he seemed to be in his best physical condition) they were 25 (The same age as Obi-Wan Kenobi) and 44 respectively."

Irrelevent. First, we're talking about two different species. Next, age has little to do with physical conditioning. For a nice little shock, check out the Hardrock Hundred Mile Endurance Run. This is literally the world's toughest race. It is a fact that the median age is somewhere around the 40+ mark (I didn't do the math) and no 25-year-old has ever come close to the success of the older runners. This is the ultimate in conditioning for a type of sport called "ultrarunning."

"HMMM, that gives Maul a pretty big age advantage- Although age doesn't make a difference when comes to the Physical side of the Jedi (Light or Dark side) what IS important is the fact that Vader's body is severely hampered and unable to fight for extended periods eg. The 'Return of the Jedi' climax- Where Vader is over-whelmed by Luke after Luke has given into his anger."

Luke's Dark-Side imbued rage has nothing to do with proving Vader can only fight for short durations. Luke's onslaught would've done the same to Maul if Maul were in the same position, because Luke was destined to overwhelm his foe at that point in time in the plot.

"And lets not forget how long Maul fought with the 2 Jedi. Take 'The Phantom Menace' climax- now lets see Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi replaced by Darth Vader- It would not be a very long fight with Maul getting straight into him."

There's nothing to suggest that conclusion would be true.

"Vader is missing his lower right arm & would a quadriplegic if not for his cyborg components and has got one lightsaber. Maul has got ALL his arms and legs in biological form and a DOUBLE-BLADED lightsaber, he also has experience in Hand-to-hand combat- Vader wouldn't have a chance."

Vader has physical enhancements, namely increased strength and resistance because of his modifications. Vader is ALSO experienced in hand-to-hand combat.

"Also, Mauls lightsaber has a second set of components- 'one set can act as a backup for another'- so if Vader decided to knock Mauls lightsaber out- it would still work, don't forget also that Maul might be able to separate the Double Lightsaber and fight with a single lightsaber in each hand- which could surprise ANYONE and turn the tides of the [already victorious for Maul]battle."

Let's talk about the sabers. Maul NEEDS a flashy, super-powered saber to make up for his lack of power. Vader on the other hand does NOT NEED a backup saber, nor a seperating saber, nor the surprise which they may hold. Simply put, Vader is powerful enough to not need any gimmicks, unlike Maul.

"You probably don?t know this- but Darth Maul can withstand great physical pain because of the harsh world he comes from- This gives him a great advantage when it comes to fighting (obviously). Darth Vader though- his physical condition with all his cyborg components means he can still feel pain (cybernetic limbs and body parts contain artificial nerve endings)."

You think Maul knows anything like the pain Vader experienced? We don't know what Maul would do if he were burned alive in lava - whether he would cry like a little school girl, kill himself or what. Vader has been through more pain and survived than anyone in the galaxy. Maul knows nothing of pain.

"Look at the speed of the Obi-Wan-Maul duel at the End of 'The Phantom Menace'-Did Vader fight with that speed in ROTJ or ESB? No, he didn't. He'd, quite simply, get his ass kicked."

He didn't have to fight with that speed. Speed is nothing compared to

 

I think it'd be pretty close. One thing that I will say is that I believe everyone massively overates Vader's power in the force and massively underates Maul's. Really, what has Vader done that is so impressive? He force threw a few things at Luke (who had hardly any training) in TESB. Big deal. I don't see what is so special about force-choking non force-users ,either. Maul, on the other hand, used the force against a Jedi Knight in the heat of battle. I'm certainly not saying that Maul was more powerful than Vader, but I think that people mistake a commanding presence for power.

I also have to say another thing. Where do people get off saying Maul lacked control. The most appealling thing about him to my way of thinking was his intense and controlled mindset. It even said in the novelisation that Qui-Gon considered Maul as the perfect example of how to hear the will of the force and that he hoped Obi-Wan would learn from him. I've always felt that Maul's focus and determination was his most impressive attribute. He really only gloated during breaks in the fight, never in the heat of battle.

In conclusion, I don't think I could pick a winner, but I think it would be pretty close. Maul clearly has an advantage in skill level (there is nothing gimmicky about his sabre - only a master could use such a weapon without fatally wounding themself), but Vader has a similar advantage in experience.

 

Beside practicing against droids, and probably non-Force users, Vader undoubtedly practiced against Force users. Maul did not. In fact, Maul seems to have only practiced with droids. Vader's skill level would probably be higher.

 

NO ONE, not even lucas, except in his mind's eye, has seen Vader in his prime...Episode Two shows him improved and most likely impressive...but Episode 3 shall be Vaders time to shine......this argument should wait for that moment to judge the victor...either that moment or they should at least wait for Dark Horse's upcoming Tales story featuring this title fight...

 

Based on the movies, I have no doubt that Maul's skill level is significantly higher than Vader's.

 

Based solely on the movies, huh. Bad idea, since there is literature to demonstrate how good both are. Granted, there is far more literature for Vader than Maul. But we can use all sources to make this judgement.

 

Vader would kill Maul six times before he hit the ground, end of story. "This conversation is over.".

 

what has Vader done??? Well let's see, among other things, he is pretty much responsible for the extermination of the Jedi Order. 10,000 Jedi Knights and Masters. Maul lost to 1 Jedi, Vader killed thousands (supposedly, based on what Obi-Wan said in ANH -> Darth Vader murdered the Jedi Knights).

 

When I said "what has Vader done that is so impressive", I was clearly saying so in relation to his use of the force.

Having said that, the line in A New Hope is something along the lines of "He HELPED the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights". We don't know if he single-handedly took out every single one of them. Based on that quote, he could have merely led the empire to the Jedi, letting the stormtroopers do the dirty work. Really, when you've got a whole army at your disposal, it doesn't make sense to go and hunt down Jedi one-by-one in lightsabre duels.

The reason that I used the example of Maul looking more skilful in the movies is because I feel that it is easier to judge a person's lightsabre ability with the eye, rather than reading descriptions. However, since you want to bring the novels into this, in Shadow Hunter and Cloak of Deception, Darsha's master was considered to be the best Jedi duelist in the order. Maul was too good for him. Darsha also thought that Maul was the best light sabre user that she had ever seen - and this was coming from someone who was trained by the best the Jedi had to offer.

Look, I'm not saying who would win. I am in no way saying that Vader is no good. I love him! All I'm saying is that the battle would be a lot closer than what most people think.

 

Darth Rolal...
"The reason that I used the example of Maul looking more skilful in the movies is because I feel that it is easier to judge a person's lightsabre ability with the eye, rather than reading descriptions."

!?! Visual judgement of experts by nonexperts is highly subjective at best, just plain wrong at worst. Dark Lords of the Sith are imaginary beings, who wield imaginary power using imaginary weapons. What makes any of us think we have the necessary expert knowledge to judge of Jedi/Sith combat skills with the naked eye. And your naked eye is unable to see the real fight being fought on the more important plane - the plane of the Force. Lightsaber combat by skilled Force-users is only marginally physical and nearly entirely Force-based.

 

remember in Crimson Empire I when they were showing the training of the Imperial guardsmen, and Vader took out their best fighter martial arts style (No forcechoke, no levitating rocks to throw at him, but just Bruce Lee type kicking of buttocks)...

Anyway it should be evident now that Vader is not really phisically hampered by his suit or his age.


Darth Maul vs. Darth Vader: Vader after a really cool fight

1. They'd bothh pretty even in lightsabering

2. Darth Vader stronger in force ability than Darth Maul. After dueling a while DV will get bored and just forcechoke Maul to death. Maul will fight back against it but Vader is stronger in the force...we'd finally get to hear DM speak some more...too bad it'd be "Agh...ack...agh!"

3. Who are we kidding both of'em would kneel to Palpatine and say "What is thy bidding my master?"
Palpatine would say, "Darth Maul (TPM) you failed me once before, you know the penalty for that."
Darth Maul: "Yes my master." Puts ligtsaber to head SNAP HISS.

4. Vader wins anyway you slice it (pardon the pun)

 

I-Poodoo...
"Vader wins anyway you slice it (pardon the pun)"

Yep, and then of course would be...

5. Vader tosses the old bag of bones down the obligatory Jedi Duelling Pit (tm) which was in place for the just-finished Maul/Vader duel.

 

Alienboy you said that Darth Vader killed 10,000 Jedi Knights right? well thats wrong because during the Clone Wars many Jedi are killed and the few that remain are killed off during the Jedi Purge by Dark Jedi like Jerec and his 6 dark jedi, also by Torbin,Tremayne,Darys,Sedriss and Aldric Brandl, the other dark jedi are mostly unnamed Dark Side Adepts and their little fleets, Blackhole is a possible jedi hunter as is Arden Lyn.

And the others responsible are men like Grand Moff Tarkin who probably killed some hiding in the Outer Rim Territories and Hethrir the Imperial Procurator of Justice that probably helped vader hunt down jedi using his connections.

 

Darth Maul (TPM) vs Darth Vader (ESB)

Some points to consider:

1> Vader can't force choke Maul. Maul is strong enough in the force to defend against that. For that sort of Force attack to succeed, it probably has to be a Master-Level power, like when the Emperor fries Luke (RoTJ).

2> Trained Force-users are going to have trouble sneaking up on each other, no matter what the circumstances. Therefore, loud breathing noise is irrelevant.

3> The midichlorian count has some relevance. More midichlorians = more connection to the Force. Vader's connection will be clearer and more matured than Mauls due to Jedi & Sith training, age, and experience. Vader will be more in touch with the "Living Force" because of his exposure to more living Force-users (as friends, teachers, and opponents). Vader should be granted, hands-down strongest in the Force.

4> Maul has a speed and endurance advantage. However, he does not have the training to take full advantage of this. If he can keep the fight short, it will help him. If the fight drags out, he will get reckless and predictable.

5> Maul's double-lightsaber is well suited against tall opponents like Vader and Qui-Gon who can't come inside as easily as shorter opponents like Luke or Obi-Wan.

6> It doesn't matter one bit that Vader can't run. These guys are Sith Lords, they aren't going to be running around one another. There will be enough hatred to keep them going for each others throat constantly.

Final Analysis: Neither Sith could completely rout the other. However, Vader has the most going for him. He's stronger in the force and better experienced. Vader didn't lose to Luke in RoTJ because he was weak. Luke brought Vader down only after he was overcome with fear and anger. I can't imagine that Vader could do anything to Maul to bring out that deep of an emotional response. When your evil father threatens to kill you and then make your sister evil instead, you have some serious emotional reactions (I'd assume). And not to get into another hypothetical debate, but I think Luke would defeat Maul, so I don't take Vader's defeat at Luke's hand to be a sign of Vader's weakness.
I also don't take Maul's defeat at Obi-Wan's hands to be a sign of weakness either. He was just being dumb and overconfident. If Maul had survived TPM and continued to single out Jedi for extermination, he would have grown tremendously in the Force. If he survived to AOTC, Anakin would have killed him with shear rage. But that is far too much speculation for one post! Sorry.
The point is, an older and more experienced Maul would pose a greater threat to Vader. However, I could never rule against my favorite villian of all-time! Nobody could ever defeat Vader, except his own children. The Emperor knows this. He knows, if ya can't beat'em, join'em!!!!!!

Long Live Vader!!!!!!
Good or Evil, he's the best!!!!

 

Personally, I think Darth Vader would win. However, what would slow Vader down is that he's mostly mechanical. That would be cool to see Maul vs. Anakin Skywalker (not as Darth). They should make a comic on that. I want to see Yoda vs. Darth Maul. Now, that would be sort of funny.



Check my signature and click on the link. It's no joke. It's really a program desgined to find medicine that would hopefully cure cancer.

 

The problem I've seen so far with these aurguments if who would win in a Lightsaber duel. I'll get to that in a second. First EP3 is where Vader should be a bad A$$ not when the dude is a senoir lol. Next the question should be who is a better DArth? You can only do so mutch with a lightsaber. Dath Maul had "lack of vision" and he payed for it. I feel like VAder would have made the situation work for him in NAboo. MAul was a "yes sir" guy. Vader was a "do this or die" type of guy he gave the orders. He new Batifield tactics and what not. Vader was a General, Maul was a soldier. I mean why kill a guy yourself when you can hire a guy? Thats why Palpatine was a bad a$$! Also rember what Yoda said about judging him based on his size! That shows that the power in the force matters greatly. In that respect ANakin was the man we know that. 2 and 3 will explain alot of things to us all. Vader is the victor plain and simple.

 

hmm you seem to forget...Vader was a Sith lord= A master of the dark side.

Maul=Apprentice and a young padawan killed him he still was learning..

Vader has more experience he would have killed maul