Darth Vader as known by average citizens

One very interesting plotpoint of Matt Stover's Shadows of Mindor, in my opinion, is the media of the GFFA, and the public perception of Luke Skywalker, the Emperor, and Darth Vader. It makes so much sense, to me at least, that a great deal of what the average citizens perception of these people would come from pure dramatizations.

Now, the reason I made this topic. I've skipped around the timeline a bit, and have recently read Troy Denning's Tatooine Ghost, which is my first exposure to Denning. Long story short, found the story very entertaining, thought Leia and Han were done extremely well, though I wanted to bash the Squib's skulls together and eat them (I'm a vegetarian). In said book, it seems to be common knowledge, even on a backwater planet like Tatooine, that Anakin Skywalker, a hero from the Clone Wars, went on to become Vader. In Shadows, there is no connection between the two in the public eye. Anakin was a great hero, Vader was a great villain. This is hardly a continuity issue; there are several years between SOM and TG, and public perception could have changed. In my mind, Luke eventually told the public about Anakin and Vader's connection, or got Gepta to make a good movie out of it

One other interesting "public views" of Vader I've found is that in the Hutt Gambit, another novel I've recently read, Han has no idea who Vader is, despite him being in the Imperial Navy at a time. Maybe the Emperor kept Vader hidden from public eye until the Rebellion, at which time he would be able to use him as a symbol of fear?

I just think it's fairly interesting that, at least sometime after ROTJ, Anakin Skywalker is remembered as a hero of the Clone Wars, last loyal Jedi, went down saving children, etc. By Tatooine Ghost, much of the truth is known. This is one of those fun "explain something out of universe with in-universe details". Why would Luke reveal who Anakin had become? Possibly to shatter the lingering mindset that Anakin was the last good Jedi, and all others were rotten? In the end, was Anakin remembered as a tyrant or hero? Did Luke insist that Anakin be remembered a hero? Was it public knowledge that Luke was Vaders son (I don't think so on this one, since Mara had no idea). And so on.

 

I imagine it's not that different from real life when it becomes public knowledge people did pretty horrible things who were once viewed as heroes. Andrew Jackson is still on American Money despite the mammoth atrocities against Indians he performed. You'll have detractors, defenders, people who live in abject denial ("Thomas Jefferson did NOT have black children!"), and the people who just ignore it.

I imagine most people will go down as considering Darth Vader to be one of the most heinous villains in the world despite his earlier heroism. The closest real-life equivalent would probably be Marshal Petain of France who, if he'd died before World War 2 would have been considered one of the single greatest heroes that France ever produced.

In Luke Skywalker's case, I imagine his mystique is only further enhanced by it. Shadows of Mindor is about the AUDIENCES perception of Vader and Luke as much as it is the in-universe version of it.

But yes, it's public knowledge by The Black Fleet Crisis but not before the Jedi Academy.

 

So he's the one who made the PT? That's right, people, stop blaming GL for Jar Jar Binks! It's alla Gepta's fault!

 

I'm still annoyed that we never see Luke and Leia first admitting their relationship to each other (it's unknown at the time of COPL, or Ta'a Chume is much more incompetent than she first seems, but common knowledge a year later during TTT) and then their connection to Darth Vader (unknown to the public during JAT and IJ, public knowledge years later in BFC). I'd love to see the fallout from both revelations.

I'd say that Darth Vader probably remains something of a cautionary tale, but that requires the galaxy to remember and think about the major events of recent history. FOTJ clearly says that most people don't.

 

Geptun, not Gepta. Still, I'm sure movies by Rokur Gepta would be... interesting?

 

I imagine it's not that different from real life when it becomes public knowledge people did pretty horrible things who were once viewed as heroes. Andrew Jackson is still on American Money despite the mammoth atrocities against Indians he performed. You'll have detractors, defenders, people who live in abject denial ("Thomas Jefferson did NOT have black children!"), and the people who just ignore it.

The others weren't ncessarily any better: Washington owned slaves; in addition to owning slaves, Jefferson had plans to bring Indians into the American world, in the same sense of the "universal brotherhood" (hakko ichiu) of World War II-era Japan; Lincoln had his own atrocities against Indians; Hamilton wanted to make it so that only the well-healed could vote; and Grant was involved in actions against the Sioux. Moving into coin money, Roosevelt assumed all Japanese-Americans were spies.

I imagine most people will go down as considering Darth Vader to be one of the most heinous villains in the world despite his earlier heroism. The closest real-life equivalent would probably be Marshal Petain of France who, if he'd died before World War 2 would have been considered one of the single greatest heroes that France ever produced.

I think of American views of the Axis Powers. During the war itself, Japan was seen as the truly evil one (largely due to being the token nonwhite in the Axis, though Finland was the only Axis country that really didn't have Nazi-esque policies). Today, Germany is considered the most evil Axis country.

In Luke Skywalker's case, I imagine his mystique is only further enhanced by it. Shadows of Mindor is about the AUDIENCES perception of Vader and Luke as much as it is the in-universe version of it.

True, but I don't think anybody between 1977 and 1980 thought Luke's father was loyal to the Emperor.

 

Note that a lot of the Imperial military (by which I mean the average grunts and officers, not the indoctrinated or power-hungry ones) thought Vader to be one of the best leaders ever. Taken from the short stories "In His Image" and "A Two-Edged Sword", a lot of military men looked up to Vader. Vader never ordered an action he wouldn't be willing to do himself, and he looked after the men who served him well (note: it was only the power-hungry ones like Motti and the failures like Needa that incurred Vader's wrath). The specific example is Erv Lekauf, who served as Vader's personal aide. Lekauf was badly injured while performing his duty, and Vader saw fit to ensure that he lived the rest of his days comfortably, with all his family's needs met.
[image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/e/e3/Lekauf.jpg]

Others were similarly inspired by this. Erv Lekauf's grandson Jori was a member of the Galactic Alliance Guard, and relayed to then-Jacen Solo how he, his family, and a lot of the Imperial Army felt about Vader. This inspired Solo to look out for his men, and earned him the trust and almost fanatical devotion of the GAG.

So the good soldiers thought Vader was great. It was the bad ones who hated him, since they feared him.

 

i would imagine that the average joe in street would know next to nothing about vader and anyone (reporters etc) sticking their noses in would find that pension they were saving for was a waste.

lol


as for the military they seemed to respect vader except for maybe senior officers- esp the greedy and lazy ones....

maybe in order to clear the old republic jedi luke had to explain what really happened including his father

 

This always seemed odd to me, since we are supposed to believe that all humanity has left Vader which is why Obi won and Yoda felt there was no hope for redemption in him

Yet these would be clear examples of there being some decency left in Vader, so his redemption by his son isn?t really all that shocking

I wonder also what the Emperor thought of Vader?s actions, since you would imagine he would at least get a feeling of there being some decency in Vader, even if he didn?t know the specifics

I guess though it could easily just be explained as a tool used by Vader to get his troops to perform better under him. Word definitely would get around the fleet of his actions, so everyone would want to perform to their best to be rewarded despite the obvious consequence for failure. Anakin Skywalker, with his military experience from the Clone Wars, would definitely know how to play that game to his advantage. Being the Chosen One and having all that Force power makes it easier, as he can take more risks than normal people could and live to tell about it, to inspire his troops even further compared to regular officers.

 

I actually prefer this version because RL monsters are rarely pure evil anyway. It also helps us understand why Vader (and Ulic Qel-Droma) are able to return to the Light Side while Palpatine just laughs at any suggestion of the idea.

Besides, Obi-Wan and Yoda have a reason to be blind on the issue.

 

I like this kind of version also, but I am not sure with Vader. Though Anakin did tend to take in the clones he was commanding as almost like family, so I could see that carrying over to when he was Vader as well.

Anakin was never very subtle with anything, so that?s why this explanation doesn?t quite work for me for Vader. He was all in with anything he chose. Once he went all in being a Sith, I don?t really see any of the mercy left from when he was a Jedi lasting very long in his system. It would just pop up here and there, I think it would most likely have been dormant until something major jarred it loose, like discovering his son was still alive.

I can see the Emperor using it as a tool to get others to perform better for him, as he was one to work both sides to every advantage. Anakin/Vader never seemed that subtle. So it was either fake to get those under him to perform better, which doesn?t seem in his personality, or it was real glimpses of Anakin shining through in Vader, which almost lessens the impact of Luke?s bringing about his redemption.

 

I like this kind of version also, but I am not sure with Vader. Though Anakin did tend to take in the clones he was commanding as almost like family, so I could see that carrying over to when he was Vader as well.


I guess it depends on how you view Vader. I like to think Vader still views the Empire as having SOME purpose other than power for its own sake.

I.e. Imperial soldiers have value as do citizens.

He'll still kill billions though, it's just supposedly for his (self-justifying) belief it's for the greater good.

The big horror though - Vader KNOWS this is a lie.

 

I agree with Charles and marmkid.

Although, even though it's a horror and he knows it's a lie, it's basically because he's fought to keep "Anakin" from reemerging in any kind of fashion (recall his hatred of Anakin in SotE), and it's "Anakin" that knows it's a lie. Vader excels in self-hatred, and he'd do anything to make Anakin pay for being too weak.

 

I think Anakin and Vader are also both the type to not easily admit they were wrong unless forced to by someone strong, in this case really only the Emperor, who obviously wouldnt think he was wrong.

So even while Anakin knows its a lie, the Vader in him wont let him accept that he was wrong so he will then continue on that path until it becomes right. Vader refuses to be wrong, and there was really no one strong enough to get him to admit it, until Luke comes along

 

So yes, the troopers of the Galactic Empire view Vader as something of a personal totem. He's a juggernaut that will lead from the front and everyone will follow. They assume he won't throw their lives away (they're wrong - Vader will sacrifice any number of Imperials to reach his goal - see his pursuit of the Millennium Falcon). However, Vader also GETS RESULTS which is something many Imperials will respect.

Pellaeon sees Vader as wasteful, when he's actually just below Thrawn in tactics.

Vader just makes no pretensions about caring about his troops and being the good guy. His effectiveness and efficiency makes people assume he does care about his troops.

(And when Vader's guard is down - see A New Hope, he allows people to talk to him like a person ala "She'll die before she tells you anything."

And he goes, "Leave that to me."

Whereas Motti, his guard is up and you better not backtalk)

 

Fantastic Taral, great post!! Now, can somebody add this entire quote to Vader's Wookieepedia page? Seriously.

 

Problem is, TG clashes somewhat with the JAT and IJ, which is set later - and during which Luke shocks his students by revealing who his father was.

 

Also, most of the "Vader is loved by the common soldier" is by Karen Traviss.

I don't have any problem with the idea.

However, we should also note that it's not an idea that has much broad support.

Let's face it, The Force Unleashed (as well as the Asteroid Field) illustrates how much Vader cared for the Imperial soldiery.

 

That's right, I clawed my way through the Lando Calrissian adventures not so long ago, first thing that came to my mind. There needs to be more Gepta material XD

I have not read the Jedi Academy Trilogy in awhile, it was one of the first EU I read. I don't remember Vader's lineage not being common knowledge in it, but I imagine it wasn't a big point.

 

I,Jedi has a scene where Luke reveals it to his students and none of them knew

 

Was it written like that? Vader was loved, Charles?
Or was he revered by the common troops for his willingness to personally engage in all sorts of front-line action? Anyone got any good novel quotes for this?

It's when there wasn't any REAL fighting that every Imp had to be on their toes around the Dark Lord. Conflict pacified Vader, everything else, annoyed him... There has to be something, somewhere that sheds some light on this subject of Vader and how the troops viewed him.

 

I would like to read a Dark Times-era novel where an investigative journalist protagonist (teaming up with a grizzled ex-Galactic Republic intelligence person with good contacts) figures out what really happened with Palpatine taking over.

 

Oh i get what the quote means, and with someone like Tyrannus and Palpatine, it fits in their charactor

I just dont see it fitting with someone like Vader, with everything we saw of Anakin Skywalker in the PT and the Vader in the OT, he didnt seem to really manipulate things very well, but he just used brute strength to get the job done


And its not really a knock on his charactor and doesnt make him one dimensional or anything.